kim

worrieddadnmom, Your remark about the "battle," for middle school vaccines along with Cara615 (I should be locked up!) prompted me to head back into the vaccine trenches and I'm glad I did because there were some things that I certainly wasn't aware of. worrieddadnmom, I would approach the battle in this manner...(it is the approach that I have had the most success with by FAR). Usually they can't get out of the room fast enough. Questions to your physician #1. Are you recommending the sixth combination of Tdap for my daughter because you think that pertussis is really a threat to her health or as an attempt to cocoon infants. My understanding is that pertussis outbreaks are occuring in communities with very high vaccine rates. If this vaccines is being given for her protection, how long would you expect this 6th vaccine in the series to afford any benefit to my daughter? Does it contain an adjuvant or preservative? #2. I see that there are 14 vaccines available for the "flu," and that 6 of the 14 are available in multidose vials. Could you tell me if the one you use contains the preservative thimerosal and what your opinion is of injecting that into a child with know immuno/neurological sensitivities? #3. I'm aware that the two vaccines for HPV are adjuvanted. One contains 225 mcg of aluminum (as amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate), the other something that I'm not very familiar with which is AS04. Could you comment on the difference between the two and which one you think may be safer for my daughter? I know there was some concern about a vaccine that was used in another country that contained ASO3 and it was pulled due to a higher incidence of narcolepsy. It may not have been the adjuvant causing the problem, but I'd really like to know the difference between ASO3 and ASO4 and what the studies have shown for safety demonstration when given along with the vaccines that you are recommending for my daughter today. #4. I wasn't aware that one of Meningococcal vaccines contained thimerosal until recently. Does the one that your recommending contain that? Thanks rowingmom for pulling up Shaw's stuff and nicklelmama did you see the recommendation on the schedule (in the footnotes) about vaccinating pregnant adolescence with the Tdap regardless of when the last one was given ? http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-schedule.pdf http://www.immunize.org/packageinserts/pi_meningococcal.asp you can click on any vaccine inserts using the 2nd link We need EVERY parent to make their health care providers aware of these things and know that we EXPECT them to be able to answer these questions with some degree of knowledge! The questions that I posted are only the tip of the iceberg, but they really help when you encounter and arrogant uneducated healthcare provider.

In addition to above post, this is a "MUST WATCH," video. For those of you who don't know him, the narrator is Andy Wakefield. http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/us-cdc-caused-thousands-of-us-black-children-to-develop-autism-hid-the-data-showing-what-they-were-doing-cdc-whistleblower-named/

Very timely breaking news to this discussion. CDC Whistleblower on Thimerosal in Pregnant Women (video) - "I do think Thimerosal causes tics." View the video here. http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/08/cdc-whistleblower-on-thimerosal-in-pregnant-women.html http://www.naturalnews.com/046597_CDC_whistleblower_secret_letter_Julie_Gerberding.html CDC whistleblower's secret letter to Gerberding released by Natural News as mainstream media desperately censors explosive story Multiple articles on this story can be found here. Scroll down and go to page 2. It has the earlier headlines for this story. http://www.vaccinationnews.org/home-page

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/135/11/3453.short?rss=1 Antibodies to surface dopamine-2 receptor in autoimmune movement and psychiatric disorders Russell C. Dale1, Vera Merheb1, Sekhar Pillai1, Dongwei Wang2, Laurence Cantrill2, Tanya K. Murphy3, Hilla Ben-Pazi4, Sophia Varadkar5, Tim D. Aumann6, Malcolm K. Horne6,7, Andrew J. Church8, Thomas Fath9 and Fabienne Brilot1 excerpt

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/2012/284301/ Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative MedicineVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 284301, 8 pagesdoi:10.1155/2012/284301Research Article Clerodendrum inerme Leaf Extract Alleviates Animal Behaviors, Hyperlocomotion, and Prepulse Inhibition Disruptions, Mimicking Tourette Syndrome and Schizophrenia

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/10/the-canary-party-demands-new-york-health-department-investigation-pesticide-implicated-in-tics-and-seizures-in-three-female.html The Canary Party Demands New York Health Department Investigation: Pesticide Implicated in Tics and Seizures in Three Female Pitchers from Corinth http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/10/tics-and-toxins-mystery-illness-strikes-third-pitcher-at-same-ny-school.html Tics and Toxins: Mystery Illness Strikes Third Pitcher at Same New York State High School

Just interesting http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21446352 Position statement. Part one: Immune function and exercise and

Corinthdad, Not sure if you read this info in the PM (private message) that I sent you, but figured you may want to try to contact someone with an affected child from this outbreak? http://www.latitudes...pic=15513&st=45 I too, am glad that your daughter is improving!

WorriedDADNMOM, Not exactly sure what you mean by "a practical real life approach," but I thought there may be some things in this article that you may find helpful? http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/vaccines-neurodevelopment-and-autism-spectrum-disorders-russell-l-blaylock-md-neurosurgeon/ As far as what Dr.s have told parents, the most I have have heard is either condescending deniel of any connection, or "no more live viral vaccines," and a few "no more vaccines of any type." I don't think I have ever heard of a parent being given an explanation how a Dr. suspects vaccination could be causing a problem. This is an excerpt form the link above, something that I hadn't read before. The "Hep B birth dose," was actually what made the vaccination program look like a house of cards to me. The risk/reward seemed so out of line for the majority of infants that it really made me question the others. Believe me, there was never a person who thought that vaccine alarm bell ringers were anything more than "nuts," than myself at one time.

Looks like I was wrong about aluminum not being found in allergy shots. From the looks of this, it's being used in some serum as a "depot," meaning the antigen is absorbed on it to allow it's slow release and aiding in less antigen being needed. Great. I guess the only real way to know is to read everything prior to administration. bolding mine http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.2005.00790.x/abstract Efficacy and safety of preseasonal-specific immunotherapy with an aluminium-adsorbed six-grass pollen allergoid http://www.hindawi.com/journals/cdi/2012/623474/#B5

Lisa, Did your Dr. elaborate at all on how the vaccination may have caused an issue? He must suspect something. From the package insert, it contains viral antigen and aluminum hydroxide. Polysorbate 20 etc. http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_havrix.pdf Was the discussion just about immune system activation or anything more specific that you can share?

missionmom, Would you be willing to do IVIG at this point? In other words, if he doesn't show a good response what would you do about it? Do you know what your sons IgG subclasses are? I don't want to appear that I have any knowledge here. I'm just learning as I go too. The reason that I ask the subclass question... http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/885348-overview#a0104 excerpt http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/885348-overview#a0104

Linda, I don't have any advice for your specific question, but I did want to mention that there are warnings regarding the use of Cipro and tendonitis and tendon rupture. Maybe you are already aware of that but if there are any adverse reactions or pain, please be aware that this drug carries a black box warning for this problem. http://www.webmd.com/osteoarthritis/news/20080708/fda-warning-cipro-may-rupture-tendons excerpt...underlining mine

I read the article for the first time last night. Did I miss conversation of this comment? Rosario TrifilettiRamsey, NJReport ..This is Dr. Trifiletti, the doctor mentioned in the article. In the go-go world of today's media, we often want quick answers. HouseMD has one hour or so to figure out his mysteries. In the real world, medical mysteries take time to investigate. On the other hand, these girls were suffering in real time, and we needed to do something to try to help them. I went to Leroy and had about 45 min with each of these girls and their families, none of whom had ever met me before. Do you think that is adequate time to take medical histories, explore all potential stressors and psychosocial issues? Of course not. Therapists would take weeks to do this. Jeez indeed. There is one thing though that I have that is not available to the general public, including the author of this article - objective laboratory data. And this data strongly supports a diagnosis of PANDAS/PANS. Science has progressed to the point that one can do a test to determine whether or not one has PANDAS/PANS (it is colloquially called the "Cunningham Test"), and one can identify genetic risk factors for those disorders. This is being done on these patients, and will put to the speculations to rest once and for all. In the not to distant future, we will have a credible scientific explanation for this strange event. And when we do, it may well appear in Scientific American, rather than the New York Times.

There are two responses prior to this one. I'm just coming back as time permits. Jag, I don't know how long ago your girls received the HIB vaccine, but I can't find anything that shows what titers would look like long term. There is something here about 1/2 way down. http://cvi.asm.org/content/17/10/1639.full#ref-28 excerpt If a significant reduction was shown btwm 24 and 59 months (after 3 vaccines), what would levels look like from a child say 5-10 years later, especially without a challenge by revaccination? Maybe there are better stats and I just didn't look hard enough, but I would really like to know if "failure," is really indicative an an immune problem. Good info on HIB and H influenza here http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/218271-overview#a0199 I think this is on the 2nd page

I wanted to say welcome too corinthdad and LeRoyMom. I also thought you might like to read through a timeline that an uncle of a 15 1/2 yr. old boy that became ill in N Indiana, put together. A breif form is posted in the 5th post down. The pdf is very detailed (found at the bottom of that post). His forum name is Digger. http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=445003

Jag, I'm confused about what he's saying here. I don't think many here would have a hard time believing that neuro symptoms can be caused from many things other than strep. "Epitope spreading," can be a factor too, another concept that I have very limited understanding of. Under #2 though, is he saying that anti-DNase B anitbody rose from H influenza and dropped post T&A???? As a side note, H influenza is not type B or HIB. Other strains of H. Influenza were known to increase with the introduction of the HIB vaccine. There are types a-f which are polysaccharide encapsulated and nonencapsulated strains that are referred to as non typeable/ NTHi. edit...I should have read all of your posts Jag. I see now that you were basically asking the same questions.

LLM, " Is there a "normal" range for this or do you gauge infection by a rising trend? I know that you are most interested in the inhibitory aspect right now, but in regards to trying to figure out the risk/reward of the vaccine with no known deficiency, this is just a thought. Our kids get these vaccines in series. With each vaccine a more robust immune response is mounted (supposedly). What is considered a "protective," level is not achieved until the series is complete. If there was a problem here, especially an inherited deficiency, seems there would be a history of illness with these types of menningtis? S pneumonia infections, yes, but I don't think I know of a single case of a parent reporting a case of N.meningitis, either here or on the TS forum. Anyway, these are a few excerpts from a CDC pdf. titled Persons at Highest Risk of Meningococcal Disease or Suboptimal Vaccine Response bolding mine http://www2.erie.gov/wnypac/sites/www2.erie.gov.wnypac/files/uploads/pdfs/presentationchild.pdf Very high antibody titer required to compensate for complement deficiency Serologic data are now available from the manufacturer that show significant decline in antibody 3-5 years after vaccination although few breakthrough cases have been reported Ok, back to a deficiency in an inhibitory response. I know that I read recently that the antibody levels created by the HPV vaccine is higher than would be mounted in a natural response. Also, when I discussed the fact that my kids only received one varicella vaccine with their Dr. He suggeted titer testing and said if they didn't show immunity (from the 1 that they did get), that we might want to jump right to the shingles vaccine. No thank you. If I were going to do the 2nd one, I would want the lesser amt. of antigen in the reg varicella vax, because of just what you are thinking about. That was just instinct, I knew nothing about the immune system and still know very little. In a perfect world, our children would be evaluated and there would be some information available to us, but that would be too costly and time consuming, so they recommend them and those who seem to benefit, great...those who end up injured or damaged, oh well. The greater good, ya know. No idea. Have you found anything?

LLM, I typed you a line by line reply last night, hit send and the whole thing disappeared (the heading was God Bless You LLM). I think you and I were understanding things basically the same way though. I think what you meant to say was that the risk of not getting vaccinated may be greater than getting vaccinated? If that was what you meant, I think I would agree. I would want to discuss it with a good Immun Dr. and find out what the odds were that protective antibodies would be formed with vaccination. One thing that I read looked like prop. antibiotics would be in order (vaccine wasn't mentioned) one, it was. So??? One thing that I do know, if my child had an inherited deficiency and there was a vaccine that could protect them from something deadly, I would be one grateful Mom. As many before me have said, it's not about being "anti vaccine," it's about being "pro informed choice," that parents are fighting for. This attitude of "do it or else," once a vaccine is formally added to the schedule is what's not acceptable IMO. Informed choice does require some time, but once you get into it a little, well, it seems it's time very well spent. #2 was what I was referring too, when I said something about "your kids results," in above post. I'm sure you have seen this page http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/complement-levels/tab/test It seems they can test the C1 hibitor to see if it's deficient? Once the wobblies stabilized did you find anything else?

Thanks for your response LLM. Btwn you and Nancy, It's nice to get a chuckle here and there. I'll explain why I was asking, then maybe I can ask you a couple of things that relate to your kids results specifically? Ok, my original intention was to go back to the thread where we were discussing vaccines and post some review of the Meningococcal vaccine because there were a few comments there about that being one that parents worried about in particular (I do too). When one of my sons was horribly ill and hospitalized with EBV, the ped asked about vaccinations and I told him when we quit and what my son was not up to date on. He didn't really bat an eye, except for the "meningitis vaccine." I nearly hyperventilated in the wee morning hours thinking that I had signed a consent to treat form, and wondered if they could vaccinate him when I wasn't there. We were discussing that at the nurses station the next day and one said that she would have if a Dr. would have ordered it and one said that she would have waited for me to sign a seperate consent form. Anyway, this son tested negative on 3 seperate mono spot tests and EBV was only declared positive with additional antibody testing ordered by infectous disease Dr. I so wish that I would have asked the ID doc if there was any immune system red flags since he was negative on the mono spot. It looks like deficiencies are the worrisome factor, not elevations in regards to meningitis? When discussing vaccines, it's important to remember that meningitis is a condition brought on by invasion of a bacteria. HIB, S pneumoniae, Neisseria meningitidis (meningococcus..the vaccine that most parents think of for their teen or college age kids) along with viral infections (usually a more mild disease) are all capable of causing meningitis. You are vaccinating against the bacteria, not really the "condition." I'm finding Pubmed info easier to decipher relating to complement and meningitis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1588179 The role of complement in the host's defense against Haemophilus influenzae. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20930072 Infections of people with complement deficiencies and patients who have undergone splenectomy. Since there are many on this forum that have children that have some form of immune dysfunction or suspected immune dysfunction, it seems like a basic understanding of the statement in my original post might be important so that parents with good immuno Dr.s, can discuss it with them. If it's deficiency only, and most who have had testing show elevation, that would be good to know. By the same token, if a child has a deficiency in a complement component and could be more prone to a complication, well, that is something I would certainly consider in relationship to a vaccine decision. Does that make more sense?

LLM, Read just the wiki page and you'll see why I can't possibly put this on toast, not even a whole loaf! Complement is one complicated issue http://en.wikipedia....mplement_system Were any of the levels abnormal?

I think that I've seen a couple of posts here regarding Complement testing (immune deficiencies). I'm wondering if anyone has had a immuno Dr. discuss anything relating to this statement with them? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complement_system http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArticle/refId-a0000511.html In light of the recent discussion on another thread (vaccine discussion) I'm wondering if a known deficiency would be a case where vaccination would be highly indicated, or if it would be ineffective anyway because of the deficiency? Does anyone have any knowledge here? excerpt from the National Vaccine Information Center http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases/Meningitis.aspx

Hey, No Fair!!! I was almost ready to post a bunch of confusing links and stuff about Syndrome of Opérculo Torácico (SOT). You guys were just baiting a research junkie weren't you!

Boy, finding info on allergy shots isn't easy! LLM, I'm not sure what part of the Shaw paper you were looking at, but I didn't think alum in an allergy shots would make any sense. Remember, bacteria that coat themselves in polysaccharides do it to escape immune dectection because these sugars are endogenous to "self." They are capable of changing up too, when our bodies learn to detect them. When antigen is absorbed on alum, it provokes an immune response with the help of an inflammatory pathway (this is my take on it currently and remember, no medical background here). In an allergy situation, inflammation and antibody memory or recall is the last thing that you would want. I think the idea is more that you present the antigen in small doses so the body get used to seeing it, and doesn't react. The only thing that I really came up with in regards to additives was human serum albumin as a stabilizer, and phenol as an antimicrobial from this article. http://www.aafp.org/afp/2004/0815/p689.html I couldn't find a package insert for anything. I'll leave a few things that I quickly looked up on albumin and phenol. The 3rd one down is really interesting if you think phenol or sulfur pathways are a problem for your child. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenol Phenol was first extracted from coal tar, and its major uses involve its conversion to plastics or related materials. Phenols are key for building polycarbonates, epoxies, Bakelite, nylon, detergents and a large collection of drugs, herbicides and pharmaceuticals http://www.danasview.net/phenol.htm http://www.newtreatments.org/ga.php?linkid=252 phenol-sulphotransferase http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_serum_albumin Human serum albumin is the most abundant protein in human blood plasma. It is produced in the liver. Albumin constitutes about half of the blood serum protein. It is soluble and monomeric. Albumin transports hormones, fatty acids, and other compounds, buffers pH, and maintains osmotic pressure, among other functions. http://www.worldallergy.org/professional/allergic_diseases_center/ige/ IgE in Clinical Allergy and Allergy Diagnosis

Cobbiemommy, You might want to review these threads regarding what appears to be known and not known regarding the significance of the S. pneumoniae titers before seeing your Dr. again. It looks like your son mounted a good response to type 3 which I would suspect he was exposed/infected with naturally in the recent past? http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6469&st=0 Immune Paralysis http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5419&st=60 Streptococcus Pneumonae