LNN

I don't know that my answer will give you the reassurance you want. We were on the Pandas trail for 2 yrs, and now on the lyme/bartonella path for 9 months. The first 3 months of treating for bartonella were awesome. No herxing, just swift improvement. Then DS stalled. When we started attacking the lyme (with omnicef and tindamax), he had a horrible, 2 month long herx/pandas-like flair. We stopped the tindamax and he stabilized. So it tells me there's probably a lot of cyst-lyme due to so many years of abx. But something was being a roadblock that kept his body from being able to handle the herx/inflammation. So we're now looking into mold (but his blood work is only slightly suggestive and we don't have an obvious mold issue) and into KPU. He's been off of all supplements and vitamins for a week to do a urine test and he's deteriorated significantly (return of OCD, quick tempered, loss of impulse control, very immature/silly). So I'm thinking we have a clue and am expecting the KPU/metals investigation to show he has issues there. I'm also looking into anti-inflammatories, as I think the cytokine issue is huge for DS. So ours is not a slam dunk, do one protocol and you're done sort of story. BUT we are further along and DS is better than he once was. The "peeling the onion" analogy is probably over-used, but it does seem to fit our situation. I hope against all hope that we're close to getting to the bottom of things. My best advice is to keep track of everything - how you feel is a message. If something isn't working the way it "should", it seems to be a sign that something else is at work.

Just FYI... Subject: FDA MedWatch - Valproate Products: Drug Safety Communicaton - Risk of Impaired Cognitive Development in Children Exposed In Utero (During Pregnancy) MedWatch logoMedWatch - The FDA Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program Valproate Products: Drug Safety Communicaton - Risk of Impaired Cognitive Development in Children Exposed In Utero (During Pregnancy) Including valproate sodium (Depacon), divalproex sodium (Depakote, Depakote CP, and Depakote ER), valproic acid (Depakene and Stavzor), and their generics AUDIENCE: OBGYN, Neurology, Psychiatry ISSUE: FDA notified healthcare professionals that children born to mothers who take the anti-seizure medication valproate sodium or related products (valproic acid and divalproex sodium) during pregnancy have an increased risk of lower cognitive test scores than children exposed to other anti-seizure medications during pregnancy. This conclusion is based on the results of epidemiologic studies that show that children born to mothers who took valproate sodium or related products throughout their pregnancy tend to score lower on cognitive tests (IQ and other tests) than children born to mothers who took other anti-seizure medications during pregnancy. See the Drug Safety Communication for a data summary and additional information. BACKGROUND: Valproate products are FDA-approved drugs to treat seizures, and manic or mixed episodes associated with bipolar disorder (manic-depressive disorder), and to prevent migraine headaches. They are also used off-label (for unapproved uses) for other conditions, particularly for other psychiatric conditions. RECOMMENDATION: Healthcare professionals should inform women of childbearing age of the increased risk for adverse effects on cognitive development with prenatal valproate exposure, and should continue to counsel women of childbearing potential taking valproate about the increased risk of major malformations, including neural tube defects, when valproate is used during pregnancy. In addition, healthcare professionals should weigh the benefits and risks of valproate when prescribing this drug to women of childbearing age, particularly when treating a condition not usually associated with permanent injury or death. Alternative medications that have a lower risk of adverse birth outcomes should be considered. Patients should not stop taking valproate without talking to a healthcare professional. Healthcare professionals and patients are encouraged to report adverse events or side effects related to the use of these products to the FDA's MedWatch Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program: Complete and submit the report Online: www.fda.gov/MedWatch/report.htm Download form or call 1-800-332-1088 to request a reporting form, then complete and return to the address on the pre-addressed form, or submit by fax to 1-800-FDA-0178 Read the MedWatch safety alert, including links to the Drug Safety Communication and FDA Questions and Answers, at: http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/SafetyInformation/SafetyAlertsforHumanMedicalProducts/ucm261610.htm

Just FYI... Subject: FDA MedWatch - Valproate Products: Drug Safety Communicaton - Risk of Impaired Cognitive Development in Children Exposed In Utero (During Pregnancy) MedWatch logoMedWatch - The FDA Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program Valproate Products: Drug Safety Communicaton - Risk of Impaired Cognitive Development in Children Exposed In Utero (During Pregnancy) Including valproate sodium (Depacon), divalproex sodium (Depakote, Depakote CP, and Depakote ER), valproic acid (Depakene and Stavzor), and their generics AUDIENCE: OBGYN, Neurology, Psychiatry ISSUE: FDA notified healthcare professionals that children born to mothers who take the anti-seizure medication valproate sodium or related products (valproic acid and divalproex sodium) during pregnancy have an increased risk of lower cognitive test scores than children exposed to other anti-seizure medications during pregnancy. This conclusion is based on the results of epidemiologic studies that show that children born to mothers who took valproate sodium or related products throughout their pregnancy tend to score lower on cognitive tests (IQ and other tests) than children born to mothers who took other anti-seizure medications during pregnancy. See the Drug Safety Communication for a data summary and additional information. BACKGROUND: Valproate products are FDA-approved drugs to treat seizures, and manic or mixed episodes associated with bipolar disorder (manic-depressive disorder), and to prevent migraine headaches. They are also used off-label (for unapproved uses) for other conditions, particularly for other psychiatric conditions. RECOMMENDATION: Healthcare professionals should inform women of childbearing age of the increased risk for adverse effects on cognitive development with prenatal valproate exposure, and should continue to counsel women of childbearing potential taking valproate about the increased risk of major malformations, including neural tube defects, when valproate is used during pregnancy. In addition, healthcare professionals should weigh the benefits and risks of valproate when prescribing this drug to women of childbearing age, particularly when treating a condition not usually associated with permanent injury or death. Alternative medications that have a lower risk of adverse birth outcomes should be considered. Patients should not stop taking valproate without talking to a healthcare professional. Healthcare professionals and patients are encouraged to report adverse events or side effects related to the use of these products to the FDA's MedWatch Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program: Complete and submit the report Online: www.fda.gov/MedWatch/report.htm Download form or call 1-800-332-1088 to request a reporting form, then complete and return to the address on the pre-addressed form, or submit by fax to 1-800-FDA-0178 Read the MedWatch safety alert, including links to the Drug Safety Communication and FDA Questions and Answers, at: http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/SafetyInformation/SafetyAlertsforHumanMedicalProducts/ucm261610.htm

Subject: FDA MedWatch - Valproate Products: Drug Safety Communicaton - Risk of Impaired Cognitive Development in Children Exposed In Utero (During Pregnancy) MedWatch logoMedWatch - The FDA Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program Valproate Products: Drug Safety Communicaton - Risk of Impaired Cognitive Development in Children Exposed In Utero (During Pregnancy) Including valproate sodium (Depacon), divalproex sodium (Depakote, Depakote CP, and Depakote ER), valproic acid (Depakene and Stavzor), and their generics AUDIENCE: OBGYN, Neurology, Psychiatry ISSUE: FDA notified healthcare professionals that children born to mothers who take the anti-seizure medication valproate sodium or related products (valproic acid and divalproex sodium) during pregnancy have an increased risk of lower cognitive test scores than children exposed to other anti-seizure medications during pregnancy. This conclusion is based on the results of epidemiologic studies that show that children born to mothers who took valproate sodium or related products throughout their pregnancy tend to score lower on cognitive tests (IQ and other tests) than children born to mothers who took other anti-seizure medications during pregnancy. See the Drug Safety Communication for a data summary and additional information. BACKGROUND: Valproate products are FDA-approved drugs to treat seizures, and manic or mixed episodes associated with bipolar disorder (manic-depressive disorder), and to prevent migraine headaches. They are also used off-label (for unapproved uses) for other conditions, particularly for other psychiatric conditions. RECOMMENDATION: Healthcare professionals should inform women of childbearing age of the increased risk for adverse effects on cognitive development with prenatal valproate exposure, and should continue to counsel women of childbearing potential taking valproate about the increased risk of major malformations, including neural tube defects, when valproate is used during pregnancy. In addition, healthcare professionals should weigh the benefits and risks of valproate when prescribing this drug to women of childbearing age, particularly when treating a condition not usually associated with permanent injury or death. Alternative medications that have a lower risk of adverse birth outcomes should be considered. Patients should not stop taking valproate without talking to a healthcare professional. Healthcare professionals and patients are encouraged to report adverse events or side effects related to the use of these products to the FDA's MedWatch Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program: Complete and submit the report Online: www.fda.gov/MedWatch/report.htm Download form or call 1-800-332-1088 to request a reporting form, then complete and return to the address on the pre-addressed form, or submit by fax to 1-800-FDA-0178 Read the MedWatch safety alert, including links to the Drug Safety Communication and FDA Questions and Answers, at: http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/SafetyInformation/SafetyAlertsforHumanMedicalProducts/ucm261610.htm

Cab- You may want to search on old posts using the term "CBT" or "Cognitive behavior Therapy". Your son's reaction to the movie could be OCD but it sounds more like general anxiety. Your son needs tools to help him fight back and those who care for him need a new frame of reference for what's going on. He obviously isn't acting this way "on purpose" as though he has control over it. And that's very hard for people without anxiety to understand. Usually they reach an end of their patience and start to convey a "Dude, Man Up" attitude, which only makes things worse. I highly recommend the book "What to Do When You Worry Too Much" as a starting point. And "Freeing Your Child From Anxiety" for the adults who care for him. The first step of CBT, like ERP, is to name the fears. Make it a 3rd party. Ours was called Warren the Worrier. It's a way to make your son realize that the anxiety isn't an inseparable part of himself. It can be fought and conquered. The next step is to catch the Worry Guy and realize that the building anxiety is a trick - a way for the Worry Guy to steal energy. Reward your son every time he realizes that it's the Worry Guy trying to control him. Catching him diminishes the anxiety. After that, you work on proving to your son that he is the boss. That Worry Guy has to listen to him. And that no adult can do this for him. That only teaches Worry guy to listen to you and that your son is weak. Your son has to be the one who becomes empowered. You can't "rescue" him. But you can coach him. A good book for helping you shift your mind set is "Talking Back to OCD" - even if it's anxiety and not OCD per se, I found the book to be a big help in changing the way I looked at my own role. Along the way, you give your son tools - like deep breathing he can do in any situation, a few scripts or mantra he can use that build his confidence, funny songs as Meg's Mom suggested - for example, when my daughter has to get a blood draw, we sing the "I'm So Brave" song to the tune of Jingle Bells. "I'm so brave, I'm so brave, I'm so very Brave. The blood draw fairy has a fat butt and I'm gonna make her maa-ad." Sometimes, it's entertaining enough to distract my daughter and give her the courage to stick her arm out for the draw. You celebrate at every attempt to fight the anxiety - even failed attempts. The key is to try to fight back, even a little bit. because by trying, eventually your son will learn to succeed. The single most important thing is to get your son to talk about his fears. Fears grow when they're fed and kept inside. By talking about them, you take away some of the mystique and power. You shouldn't try to argue the fears away, like "Oh, that's just not going to happen." Instead, you talk about what if - what if something bad did happen. What would you do? Having a coping plan for a "disaster" - no matter how improbable - can help a great deal. You can also look for a therapist trained in CBT but I found the books most helpful in helping me develop plans and a dialogue.

My "allergies" have been killing me this past week - but only my eyes. They itch like crazy, but I'm not stuffy (do have a cough tho). We've had tons of rain in New England - tons of snow and then tons of rain - I don't think we've had more than 3-4 days on a row without rain. So the mold count in our area is very high. I've been taking quercetin as an antihistamine and it helps a lot. If it's biotoxin, then a binder should help. Chlorella seems to be preferred in the lyme community - not sure why charcoal is never mentioned. My understanding is they do roughly the same thing (anyone know why charcoal isn't suggested by the doctors?). I don't think binders help with true allergies. Allergies cause histamines to spike. So I'm not sure.

For starters, you can post on forums and hound people with talk about pitands and lyme You try to pay it forward however you can - and always, always be thankful!

Tami, I'm in your shoes. My DS8 likely contracted lyme/bartonella when he was 5. Got strep twice three months later @ 6th birthday. So we thought Pandas. Did T&A - helped for two months. Then did pex - helped but only for 2 months. Did prednisone tapers twice - amazing response, but only for 2 months. Did IVIG last summer and had a horrible recovery - for 2.5 months. Finally found the lyme in October. Had an awesome response for the first 3 months, then stalled. So we added tindamax in April and had a horrible herx that brought us back to bad places. This, in my mind, confirms the lyme, but if his body can't handle the treatment, how do we get to a cure? How much of this can you take? How many times do you ask your child and your spouse to follow you down another rabbit hole in the hopes of finding the final solution? On the other hand, we looked at home movies the other day - happened to pick a tape from when DS was 3. Both my DH and I were struck by how sharp he was, how his gears were constantly turning, how...normal...he was. The reminder of how he used to be - and who I know he is beneath the illness - has recharged me. And I have to remind myself that DS is far far better than he was 3 years ago. He's made a lot of progress. So it hasn't been a waste. Just not the entire solution. I'd echo Wendy's post. Those are the next things to look at. I responded to your other post re: HLA-DR4 with some sites that might be helpful. The HPU test is a 24 hr urine catch but the test is only $70. You can probably contact the lab (PM me if you want their number) and call Dr J to see if he'll sign off on the order form. Or talk to Dr Js office on whether he feels additional blood work is called for. The "good" news is that HPU treatment (supplements) isn't expensive compared to what you've already been through. In the meantime, you might also look at a thread I started on the Pandas forum about luteolin. It sounds very promising and we may be trying it if the HPU thing isn't our answer. Mold is a whole other story. But the point is, each step brings more knowledge. We are all on paths we never dreamed we'd be on. This was not in the script. But others have gone before us - and survived - and gotten well. The reason the doctors we talk about have their ideas and protocols is because others have come before us with the same stories, same symptoms, and while there's no one-size solution, there are things that help, things that can move you forward. So we keep putting one step in front of the other. It's either that, or give up (which I've fantasized about more than once). But for me, there's a little boy who deserves my very best, no matter how hard this gets. I'm guessing you have one (ok, three) of those too. Cry. Cry some more. Then take another step. And be strong again - they need you.

Roughly 25% of the population has a genetic predisposition to having problems with handling the toxic load that comes with lyme. This is why the lyme vaccine was only on the market for 2 yrs in 2000-2001. So many people had adverse reactions and actually developed arthritis and other complications from the vaccine because they had the genetic marker of HLA-DR4. Other people have other variants of this gene that makes it difficult for them to handle mold toxins. So they can be in a building with a little mold and struggle when others seem to have no problem. This explains it best: http://www.survivingmold.com/diagnosis/the-biotoxin-pathway then go to lab results this has the same info but I like the way it's presented: http://www.publichealthalert.org/Articles/scottforsgren/biotoxin%20pathway.html

I'm not the one who can give you comforting advice on post-IVIG recovery. It was not a good experience for us, tho we are in the minority. I can tell you that the adverse reaction did eventually subside (10 weeks for us)and there were no lasting ill effects. It wasn't helpful for us, but the only long term damage was to our wallet.

If your lyme test was from a local lab, you may want to consider doing a follow-up test with Igenex - a lab which looks for some different markers/bands than the one your local lab would have looked for. the high ASO suggests the strep may not be cleared and the other two just look backward and say yes, your son was dealing with strep last month. They become more meaningful if you repeat these tests in a month. But it's still looking backward, as they're lagging indicators of a recent infection. IMHO, an additional 5 days of abx may not be sufficient, especially if your son is still symptomatic. It may also not be the correct abx for this particular "bug", if you haven't been able to eradicate it. Since you're struggling with the autism aspect, I highly recommend the link to the video Wendy has posted. I had kids in the house on a rainy day, so it took me all day to watch the 2 hr video with lots of pauses, but it was very educational. I spent the last few days trying to validate the info in this video by looking for other research. What I found is that HPU/pyroluria is well documented to cause the symptoms Dr Klinghardt describes -it's not some "out there" notion. Here's a site that speculates why SSRIs may help people who have pyroluria that's misdiagnosed as OCD or anxiety http://drkaslow.com/html/pyroluria.html. Klinghardt takes it a step further to link the condition directly to autism and lyme and to say that you can't just treat it by supplementing (which is what my other link suggests) - that you also need to do a heavy detox protocol with it. So this piece is his "working theory" if you will, based on clinical experience, but it makes a lot of sense from what I've come to understand. It would only be one piece of the puzzle, but it may well be a very important piece for some of our kids with ASD, cognition or severe "catch every illness in a 50 mile radius" issues. My son is not ASD but we're testing for HPU next week. It's only $70 - a bargain in the world of controversial diseases.

The generic answer to how long lyme treatment lasts is 18-24 months. The generic answer to when people start seeing initial improvements is a few weeks to a few months. But that's like asking when a woman will get married (assuming she will at some point). Some get married at 19 and others get married at 40. So maybe the average is 30, but that doesn't tell you when your own daughter will get married. It's a very individual thing. The big "if" in generic statements is IF your son only has bartonella and lyme. But if he's had it for a long time, if he has other problems (immune dysfunction, mold exposure, mineral deficiencies....many other things I'm not even aware of), then these things need to be dealt with as well. So for your own sanity, I think you can hope for good signs within a few months but assume it's going to be a long process. That way, you don't have your hopes dashed constantly. Every road block will yield clues and give you a chance to eliminate one more piece of baggage that you didn't even know you had. But it does tend to take the wind out of your sails if you thought you'd be at it for x months and instead you're at it twice as long. If you don't see improvements in the next 3-8 weeks?, push for why. Usually something's in the way and needs to be addressed.

I'm also interested in knowing this. My daughter's recent blood tests showed normal levels of zinc, magnesium, B-12 (didn't check b-6 though). The answer is touched upon @ the 20-25 min mark of the video and more specifically addressed @ the 40-50 min mark. Apparently, the blood cells many only show deficiencies as the situation become severe, but the rest of the body may be deficient before that. The test isn't testing urine for minerals but for something else in the urine that reflects an abnormal heme (blood) process. It's a 2 hr video, so I kept putting it off. Having to pause it a lot with kids under foot, but am finding it very helpful and interesting. He also gets into mold @ the 40 min mark and feels mold/kpu/lyme/emf's are often intertwined in chronic illnesses. A perfect storm sort of thing. We're doing the KPU test next week (need to stop all supplements and vitamins for a week first) and I bought a $10 mold test kit from the hardware store. The video is helping me make sense of it all.

How I found out about lyme is a very long story. But the short answer is that lyme became a hot topic of conversation on the forum and when my son didn't stay well by using a Pandas treatment protocol (he'd get well, then backslide even without new strep), we had to turn over additional stones. Would love to tell you that that was the end of the story, but I'm still on the forum, so that's a hint as to how my son is doing. Once the immune system goes rogue, it gets complicated - and expensive - to get things back on track. Our lyme doctor said the other day that while lyme is often called the "great imitator" because symptoms resemble so many other diseases, but he also thinks it's the great instigator, that it can trigger a cascade of events after getting into the body. So we continue to peel the onion and address issues. Not to discourage you - I can say my son is way, way better than he was when first got sick 3 yrs ago. We're just not at the finish line yet. There's no single path to wellness. Some kids find a protocol that works right away. Others are more complex. The good news is that you've made the connection between infection and behavior much faster than some of us and that bodes well.

Glad it was such an "easy" fix! Don't you love those rare moments when doing something simple - and free - helps! Hope the improvements continue!

I'm not the expert on this - but as I understand it, your kids could have negative WB and still have lyme because their immune systems wold have learned in-utero that lyme isn't an invader, thinking it was part of you. So they never learn to develop anti-bodies. BUT...if they're negative on a local lab, this means nothing. My DS was completely negative on a local WB yet had 5 positve and indeterminate bands on Igenex. You should go to the pinned "helpful threads" at the top of this forum and read a few articles on western blots - it touches on why things can be negative. If you decide to re-test with Igenex, you may want to ask your doctor to also order three additional blood tests when you do the blood draw (these 3 tests would be run by the local lab doing your draw - not by Igenex - and should be covered by insurance): C3d - general immune complex measurement that, if high, could cause a false negative on Igenex (the antibodies measured by Igenex could be bound to immune complexes and not show up on the results) C3a - an immune complex often elevated in early lyme (tends to normalize in chronic lyme patients) C4a - an immune complex sometimes indicative of ongoing exposure to mold toxins The info from these labs can help tilt the scale one way or the other if you get indeterminate Igenex results. You can also consider co-infections such as bartonella, but since you're just starting to look into lyme, and since there are labs that are cheaper than Igenex and take insurance for these co-infections, you may want to hold off on them until you get further along. If you end up consulting an LLMD, he/she might order co-infection tests from someplace other than Igenex - and if you thought treating Pandas was expensive - just wait till you get a glimpse of the lyme money-pit!

Which lab ran your WB? And when?

First, congratulations on being so persistent and observant. Many of us wish we'd known about Pandas as early as you (tho I know that to you, it feels like it took way to long to hear the word). It's hard to tell from your story which antibiotics you've tried and for how long. So it may still be a matter of finding the right abx (or a combo of two abx) for the right length of time (perhaps a month or more). The other thing you may want to look into is something called MARCoNs (multiple antibiotic resistant coagulase negative staphylococci) which is discussed often by Dr Ritchie Shoemaker (www.survivingmold.com). I'm no expert on it, but it's something that came to mind when I read your post. Ironically, we were watching old movies tonight from when my son was 2.5 (he's almost 9 now). And I was struck by how different he was before he got sick with Pitands/lyme/strep. I kept my "OMG" feelings inside and then my husband said aloud "wow! he was so....normal back then!". It sounds like a cruel thing to say, but it actually made me feel validated - that he saw it too, then I wasn't kidding myself that the "real" kid is inside and who we see now isn't quite how he should be. He was so clear thinking, so focused, so...obviously bright in so many ways. So yes, the illness your son has experienced can be causing changes and you're probably not imagining it. And it's not a "phase". Keep fighting and trusting your instincts.

I'm going to be the spoiler and suggest you wait to see a doctor and not treat yourself. You may suspect you have Bartonella and you may be correct. Or not. None of us here know your full medical history, symptoms, labs, etc. We could tell you things that make things worse, not better and you may think it's a herx when it could be an adverse reaction due to an incomplete or incorrect diagnosis. Detox is great for anyone, but the specifics of what to take can vary depending on the individual and what other medications you may take for other conditions. I think a probiotic is probably a good start but I'd start slow and work up over a week or two to give your system time to adjust. I'm not trying to discourage you and I hope I don't sound like a hypocrite. I often chime in on supplements and my own experience with them. Detox has been great for us. But I guess I work under the assumption that someone already has a diagnosis or if it's a child, probably isn't on other medications such as high blood pressure or cholesterol, etc, that hormones aren't at play... So I'd just urge caution until you have lab results or a diagnosis from an LLMD. I think the best thing to do is make sure you're on a waiting list so that you may be able to get an appointment quickly.

I can understand how the anxiety is killing you. We've all been there. As a parent of two kids with Pitands, with a lyme component, I get how it can be a scary prospect. But keep in mind your son can only get well with the correct and complete disagnosis, so it's good that you're willing to look at all possibilities. I don't know how much of the lyme discussion you've followed, and I don't want to add to your anxiety. But the standard western blot lyme tests don't always catch incidents of lyme disease. Many of us have tested with other labs, usually Igenex, that looks for things the standard test doesn't. And some have gotten very different results from these tests. I'm not suggesting that your child has lyme. I don't know the specifics of your story. But if your test has been done by a local lab, then you may want to keep a re-test thru Igenex in the back of your mind if your son doesn't respond to Pandas treatments. You can start a discussion on the lyme forum if you'd like more information. I know the Pandas parents are understandably tired of the lyme discussion.

That's sort of how I see the difference as well. Here's a similar discussion from a few months ago... http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13347&st=0&p=110631&fromsearch=1entry110631

Thanks for the feedback. S&S - please let me know what results you see. Am seriously considering parting with some (more) money on this one. On the lyme board, 911RN mentions that this supplement works best with a low-carb/high protein diet. As with her kids, carbs are a major part of my kids' diet and they'd rather starve than make a dramatic change. (we are limiting junk food, but with all they've been thru, all the pills they have to take, all the blood draws, pokes and prods, we pick our battles). S&S - if you're back on the lyme/autism board and have contact with anyone currently using this, could you ask if the low carb aspect is essential?

DS has done the sniffing thing at times, but I always classify it as an OCD thing. He is "checking" what things smell like. Was too embarrassed to explain the reason behind it. But it was a voluntary movement, a compulsion. (not that it matters).

DS is 8.5, 67 lbs. We started at 1 charcoal capsule/day and built up to 5, which comes to 1400mg (did the math wrong in earlier post). This doctor recommends 20-30 grams http://www.alsearsmd.com/activated-charcoal-detox-every-er-carries-this-miracle-powder/ for an adult.

We use 250mg glutathione as an anti-oxidant (can use alpha lipoic acid as well) 1800 mg activated charcoal as a binding agent to soak up toxins(because no way will my kids drink bentonite clay) - may switch to chlorella depending on LLMD input tomorrow 1 scoop of TruFiber and 1/2 cap full of miralax hidden in a daily smoothie or milk shake to encourage daily BMs 280 mg milk thistle for liver detox (don't take if you're allergic to ragweed - there's an old thread you may want to look up) We've tried tumeric as an anti-inflammatory but it didn't seem to do anything. Currently relying on Aleve as needed but just posted about luteolin, which sounds promising on paper.