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Dopamine and PANDAS


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If PANDAS kids brains produce too much dopamine then could my son's daily activities and diet be a cause of producing more dopamine, thus ramping his symptoms even more? He is an athlete and plays sports year round. Exercise naturally increases dopamine. He has extra vitamin B, eats fish and other hight omega 3 foods, takes flax, eats green leafy veggies. All of these help produce dopamine naturally. Has anyone else had this thought?

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If PANDAS kids brains produce too much dopamine then could my son's daily activities and diet be a cause of producing more dopamine, thus ramping his symptoms even more? He is an athlete and plays sports year round. Exercise naturally increases dopamine. He has extra vitamin B, eats fish and other hight omega 3 foods, takes flax, eats green leafy veggies. All of these help produce dopamine naturally. Has anyone else had this thought?

 

The research by Kirvan and Cunninham is indicating that it isn't too much or too little dopamine, but rather that the antibodies interfere with dopamine receptors preventing the regulation of signal. The analogy I use is that PANDAS antibodies are like loud commercials on a television that cause you to go over and turn down the volume and then when your regular show comes on you have to go back and turn back up the volume. This inability to control the "volume" because of the interference of the antibodies is what is causing the signalling issues/cross-talk.

 

So it isn't the dopamine per se but rather that the antibodies are binding to the dopamine receptors and interferring that's causing the issue for PANDAS kids -- at least that's the theory.

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I've read this:

 

Cunningham and Kirvan found 3 antibodies that interfered with neurotransmitters in the brain. These antibodies target a particular molecular sequence which happens to be a part of the Group A Beta Hemolytic cell wall structure. In neuro-blastoma cells Cam Kinase II activation regulates the amount of dopamine released.

So what Cunningham was studying was the disregulation of dopamine due to the introduction of antibodies.

 

so what I understand is that we talk about disregulation and amount of dopamine, not simply of interference.

but I'm the last one that can explain something.

 

what I want to say , next to Joan Pandas Mum, is that my daughter simply does not seem tired after an intense physical exercise as we do.

In fact she does not sleep better after a day of physical exercise

seems to have extreme endurance, and OCDs do not decrease in relation to the physical exercise she do

(sorry for my english)

Edited by marilina
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is there a "why" of the fact that doctors/NPIs insist on prescribing SSRIs when the problem is dopamine? going to intervene on the balance of these two neurotransmitters acting on what is not the first cause of issues (serotonin)?what kind of science is there, if any is there, behind this prescribe SSRIs in the case of PANDAS?

I would think that is the only thing they think they know how to manage, I speak of SSRIs

. "think do know how to manage", do not know.

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Well, I can't say for sure why any doctor does anything (or sometimes nothing ), but the NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) Pandas page does not recommend prophylactic abx and says to treat the OCD the same way "regular" OCD is treated...which is often w/ SSRIs. This is the official recommendation of the organization that sponsored the initial PANDAS studies- so is what many docs would take as the final word. ;):angry: :angry: This page contradicts the study results (that they sponsored!) and is a "black eye" (pun intended) for PANDAS treatment.

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This also explains why peanuts probably work...they are extremely high in tryptophan, which is the precursor to seratonin, and full of fat, which goes straight to the brain. I stumbled on this several years ago, when I was trying to find something high in fat and protein, and gave my son peanut butter. It stopped the rages almost instantly, and has continued to do so. He hates peanuts, so this is certainly not a placebo effect. Drs. (except Dr. K, who agreed with me) have let me know they think it's insane, but it certainly makes sense. If your child is not allergic to peanuts, try a small handful of peanuts or 1-2 T of peanutbutter the net time s/he is raging. I'd love to know how it works for you, and then I might just write something up (and maybe find someone interested in actually researching this properly!)

 

Trudy

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I don't know if the problem is "too much dopamine" or "not enough serotonin." Too much dopamine may be associated with ADHD, anxiety, tics, etc. But when dopamine levels go up, I thought serotonin is supposed regulate the response. Too little serotonin may be associated with depression and OCD symptoms, sleep disorders and emotional disorders/moodiness. So if serontonin levels are low, dopamine can do its thing relatively unchecked. SSRIs generally aim to increase serotonin production.

 

Tryptophan (bananas, whey protein, milk, eggs, carbohydrates like pasta, turkey) is an amino acid that helps the brain produce serotonin. Vitamins C and B6 apparently help with the tryptophan, too.

 

When my son (who is on a similar diet to Joan Pandas Mom's chile) starts talking too much and paying attention too little, I usually take this to mean that he needs a banana and a glass of milk! :) He enjoys a glass of warmed milk before bed, and this seems to settle him down, too. We have never used SSRIs or dopamine inhibitors....always regulation through diet (+ some supplements) and physical activity.

 

If it is not a problem of production but reception (as Buster suggested), then inhibited dopamine and/or serotonin receptors might show similar symptoms, but the treatment for receptor problems should probably be different. I guess this effort needs to focus on eliminating/not making more of the antibodies that bind to the receptors, and avoiding inflammation if that allows the antibodies to cross the BBB in the first place. Omega 3s and other dietary interventions may help with the inflammation part, too.

 

 

 

 

is there a "why" of the fact that doctors/NPIs insist on prescribing SSRIs when the problem is dopamine? going to intervene on the balance of these two neurotransmitters acting on what is not the first cause of issues (serotonin)?what kind of science is there, if any is there, behind this prescribe SSRIs in the case of PANDAS?

I would think that is the only thing they think they know how to manage, I speak of SSRIs

. "think do know how to manage", do not know.

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This is perplexing...in that i thought tics were from too much dopamine...my son can out run any kid and has more endurance, even though he tells me he is always tired, but cant fall asleep or stay asleep....

i went to a naet type doc and he said ds test low for dopamine...i was puzzled....but as i read ds labs... it does indicate that his dopamine low

i saw scott smitth on monday and he says thats what his labs indicate too...or maybe something is blocking the dopamine or its uptake(i think that's what he said)

the labs also showed he produces a lot of taurine (and from what i understand on the ts side, taurine is usually a benefit)...but the aminos prescibed by Brain Balance added MORE taurine???? and i always thought ds seemed more intense when we started the aminos....

And again if camk is reduced by taurine and my boy is overproducing it natrually....it makes me question his cam score of 105...if his body wasn't doing that naturally, would his cam be higher...is it producing more trying to fight the cam.....and what about the fact we added more taurine for 3 months prior to blood draw?? But his dopamine on the cam was on the high/higher side

Does taurine effect dopamine or vise versa....I believe scot said that something , in ds is disregulated in the middle...for uptake or conversion...

Is that what you are saying??? i don't think i know what i'm saying...i think I just fried the last brain cell i had left :huh:

 

The research by Kirvan and Cunninham is indicating that it isn't too much or too little dopamine, but rather that the antibodies interfere with dopamine receptors preventing the regulation of signal. The analogy I use is that PANDAS antibodies are like loud commercials on a television that cause you to go over and turn down the volume and then when your regular show comes on you have to go back and turn back up the volume. This inability to control the "volume" because of the interference of the antibodies is what is causing the signalling issues/cross-talk.

 

So it isn't the dopamine per se but rather that the antibodies are binding to the dopamine receptors and interferring that's causing the issue for PANDAS kids -- at least that's the theory.

 

 

I don't know if the problem is "too much dopamine" or "not enough serotonin." Too much dopamine may be associated with ADHD, anxiety, tics, etc. But when dopamine levels go up, I thought serotonin is supposed regulate the response. Too little serotonin may be associated with depression and OCD symptoms, sleep disorders and emotional disorders/moodiness. So if serontonin levels are low, dopamine can do its thing relatively unchecked. SSRIs generally aim to increase serotonin production.

 

Tryptophan (bananas, whey protein, milk, eggs, carbohydrates like pasta, turkey) is an amino acid that helps the brain produce serotonin. Vitamins C and B6 apparently help with the tryptophan, too.

 

When my son (who is on a similar diet to Joan Pandas Mom's chile) starts talking too much and paying attention too little, I usually take this to mean that he needs a banana and a glass of milk! ^_^ He enjoys a glass of warmed milk before bed, and this seems to settle him down, too. We have never used SSRIs or dopamine inhibitors....always regulation through diet (+ some supplements) and physical activity.

 

If it is not a problem of production but reception (as Buster suggested), then inhibited dopamine and/or serotonin receptors might show similar symptoms, but the treatment for receptor problems should probably be different. I guess this effort needs to focus on eliminating/not making more of the antibodies that bind to the receptors, and avoiding inflammation if that allows the antibodies to cross the BBB in the first place. Omega 3s and other dietary interventions may help with the inflammation part, too.

 

 

 

 

is there a "why" of the fact that doctors/NPIs insist on prescribing SSRIs when the problem is dopamine? going to intervene on the balance of these two neurotransmitters acting on what is not the first cause of issues (serotonin)?what kind of science is there, if any is there, behind this prescribe SSRIs in the case of PANDAS?

I would think that is the only thing they think they know how to manage, I speak of SSRIs

. "think do know how to manage", do not know.

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Well, I don't have too many brain cells available to apply to the effort, either, but things are finally starting to "click" a little bit more for me . . . at least I think they are . . . thanks in large part to all the well-voiced information here.

 

I keep seeing the words "modulate" and "regulate" with respect to everything from dopamine to CamKII to glutamate to serotonin . . . . the list goes on.

 

So, unfortunately, it seems as though what we're all trying to single out is that "delicate balance" that keeps our kids happy and functional, but it's not as simple as "too much" of this so you limit it in response, or "too little" of that so you supplement.

 

Rather, we've got to go after healing those danged "receptors" that Buster keeps talking about, or else all the adding and subtracting isn't going to do any good, at least not on a long-term basis. :huh:

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There seems to be confusion about dopamine and epinephrine in the blood versus what's going on in the basal ganglia.

 

The area of concern for dopamine in PANDAS, OCD and tics is in various parts of the basal ganglia.

 

You can't easily get near that part of the brain or see what is going on there, but what Church, Dale, Kirvan, etc did was take cell lines from neuroblastoma cells and then see whether antibodies in the blood interfered with the binding of dopamine and prevented activation of the neuron. The scientists can study this because the have some special flouresent antibodies that bind with D2 receptors and they can "see" how much of the flourescent antibodies bind. When the patient's got a lot of 24.3.1 or other anti-D2 or anti-D1, it prevents the binding (messaging) by dopamine.

 

Again the anti-D1 and anti-D2 are not binding with dopamine directly, but rather to the receptors to dopamine. If you know what a feedback cycle is, the anti-D1 and anti-D2 are acting as a random error signal in a feedback path making it so it's hard to "control" the signal.

 

 

Buster

 

This is perplexing...in that i thought tics were from too much dopamine...my son can out run any kid and has more endurance, even though he tells me he is always tired, but cant fall asleep or stay asleep....

i went to a naet type doc and he said ds test low for dopamine...i was puzzled....but as i read ds labs... it does indicate that his dopamine low

i saw scott smitth on monday and he says thats what his labs indicate too...or maybe something is blocking the dopamine or its uptake(i think that's what he said)

the labs also showed he produces a lot of taurine (and from what i understand on the ts side, taurine is usually a benefit)...but the aminos prescibed by Brain Balance added MORE taurine???? and i always thought ds seemed more intense when we started the aminos....

And again if camk is reduced by taurine and my boy is overproducing it natrually....it makes me question his cam score of 105...if his body wasn't doing that naturally, would his cam be higher...is it producing more trying to fight the cam.....and what about the fact we added more taurine for 3 months prior to blood draw?? But his dopamine on the cam was on the high/higher side

Does taurine effect dopamine or vise versa....I believe scot said that something , in ds is disregulated in the middle...for uptake or conversion...

Is that what you are saying??? i don't think i know what i'm saying...i think I just fried the last brain cell i had left :huh:

 

The research by Kirvan and Cunninham is indicating that it isn't too much or too little dopamine, but rather that the antibodies interfere with dopamine receptors preventing the regulation of signal. The analogy I use is that PANDAS antibodies are like loud commercials on a television that cause you to go over and turn down the volume and then when your regular show comes on you have to go back and turn back up the volume. This inability to control the "volume" because of the interference of the antibodies is what is causing the signalling issues/cross-talk.

 

So it isn't the dopamine per se but rather that the antibodies are binding to the dopamine receptors and interferring that's causing the issue for PANDAS kids -- at least that's the theory.

 

 

I don't know if the problem is "too much dopamine" or "not enough serotonin." Too much dopamine may be associated with ADHD, anxiety, tics, etc. But when dopamine levels go up, I thought serotonin is supposed regulate the response. Too little serotonin may be associated with depression and OCD symptoms, sleep disorders and emotional disorders/moodiness. So if serontonin levels are low, dopamine can do its thing relatively unchecked. SSRIs generally aim to increase serotonin production.

 

Tryptophan (bananas, whey protein, milk, eggs, carbohydrates like pasta, turkey) is an amino acid that helps the brain produce serotonin. Vitamins C and B6 apparently help with the tryptophan, too.

 

When my son (who is on a similar diet to Joan Pandas Mom's chile) starts talking too much and paying attention too little, I usually take this to mean that he needs a banana and a glass of milk! ^_^ He enjoys a glass of warmed milk before bed, and this seems to settle him down, too. We have never used SSRIs or dopamine inhibitors....always regulation through diet (+ some supplements) and physical activity.

 

If it is not a problem of production but reception (as Buster suggested), then inhibited dopamine and/or serotonin receptors might show similar symptoms, but the treatment for receptor problems should probably be different. I guess this effort needs to focus on eliminating/not making more of the antibodies that bind to the receptors, and avoiding inflammation if that allows the antibodies to cross the BBB in the first place. Omega 3s and other dietary interventions may help with the inflammation part, too.

 

 

 

 

is there a "why" of the fact that doctors/NPIs insist on prescribing SSRIs when the problem is dopamine? going to intervene on the balance of these two neurotransmitters acting on what is not the first cause of issues (serotonin)?what kind of science is there, if any is there, behind this prescribe SSRIs in the case of PANDAS?

I would think that is the only thing they think they know how to manage, I speak of SSRIs

. "think do know how to manage", do not know.

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I don't know if the problem is "too much dopamine" or "not enough serotonin." Too much dopamine may be associated with ADHD, anxiety, tics, etc. But when dopamine levels go up, I thought serotonin is supposed regulate the response. Too little serotonin may be associated with depression and OCD symptoms, sleep disorders and emotional disorders/moodiness. So if serontonin levels are low, dopamine can do its thing relatively unchecked. SSRIs generally aim to increase serotonin production.

 

Tryptophan (bananas, whey protein, milk, eggs, carbohydrates like pasta, turkey) is an amino acid that helps the brain produce serotonin. Vitamins C and B6 apparently help with the tryptophan, too.

.........................

 

I know SSRI action is blocking the reuptake of serotonin that is available, they can't increase directly the amount of it. but I can be wrong....

that's why everything, supplements and food that can raise the serotonin levels can help

 

I have to say we are doing the Yasko protocol, so certain amyno, certain supplements we have to avoid due to her genetics.

for example we have to avoid taurine, be careful to take control abut taurine levels and add it only if it is very low....and so on

 

finally, in the neurotrasmitters levels exam, even in organic acids profile, or in MAP TEST, ALL done in the urine, mydaughter show balance between neurotransmitters, so I think that these results do not reflect the real state of dopamine in brain, due to the presence of autoantibodies

Edited by marilina
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Thanks for clarifying/correcting....I have no direct experience with SSRIs, so it is good to understand that they don't actually increase serotonin production. Complex stuff!

 

I am curious to understand more about things like "dopamine in the blood" vs. "dopamine in the brain." What prompted you to do a neurotransmitters levels exam? Were results useful in treating/regulating any/certain of your daughter's symptoms?

 

(I ask mostly because my son, who has many allergies, has always had ADD-like symptoms (worse with PANDAS, but probably not caused by PANDAS. I suspect that something in his blood chemistry is to blame, because I see changes in his focus and attention that correspond to my trial and error changes to his diet.)

 

 

 

 

I don't know if the problem is "too much dopamine" or "not enough serotonin." Too much dopamine may be associated with ADHD, anxiety, tics, etc. But when dopamine levels go up, I thought serotonin is supposed regulate the response. Too little serotonin may be associated with depression and OCD symptoms, sleep disorders and emotional disorders/moodiness. So if serontonin levels are low, dopamine can do its thing relatively unchecked. SSRIs generally aim to increase serotonin production.

 

Tryptophan (bananas, whey protein, milk, eggs, carbohydrates like pasta, turkey) is an amino acid that helps the brain produce serotonin. Vitamins C and B6 apparently help with the tryptophan, too.

.........................

 

I know SSRI action is blocking the reuptake of serotonin that is available, they can't increase directly the amount of it. but I can be wrong....

that's why everything, supplements and food that can raise the serotonin levels can help

 

I have to say we are doing the Yasko protocol, so certain amyno, certain supplements we have to avoid due to her genetics.

for example we have to avoid taurine, be careful to take control abut taurine levels and add it only if it is very low....and so on

 

finally, in the neurotrasmitters levels exam, even in organic acids profile, or in MAP TEST, ALL done in the urine, mydaughter show balance between neurotransmitters, so I think that these results do not reflect the real state of dopamine in brain, due to the presence of autoantibodies

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I will not escape from the subject, because this discussion is extremely interesting for me, but I have to respond briefly to Athena and say that my daughter since she was 13 years started the DAN protocol. after continuous and constant improvement remained a number of "trends": the tendency to react too much fast, with impulsiveness, and the tendency to "do fast" things ... examinations revealed that she had a good blance but serotonin tend a bit 'low. we have used and are using inositol, GABA, 5HTP, and other supplements to help with these "tendencies".

examination of organic acids or Methabolic profile running by Data Doctors can assess, obtain the status of neurotransmitters. more than we did with some regularity in Paris a specific examination that show the levels of neurotransmitters.

currently epinephrine, dopamine, serotonin are in balance. However the symptoms are what you know.... we have also examined the genetic with dr.Yasko, and it turned out that she has three mutations that lower serotonin levels. I can say that genetically she has this problem. and I think I have to work to support her serotonin levels. but not with SSRIs.

she has CaM high, and antiD1 and D2 high. we have to work differently.

(as always, sorry for my english)

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