Buster Posted April 7, 2010 Report Posted April 7, 2010 (edited) I was trying to explain the difference between the research approach of Swedo and Kurlan and decided to post an analogy here. I hope you get a chuckle from it. Analogies are tricky and break down -- but see if this makes sense... Swedo noticed that when she ran across people who had allergies a number of them had orange cats. Interestingly, that group of people aren't allergic to all cats -- just orange ones. She found that if you kept them away from orange cats, they didn't sneeze as much But if you brought an orange cat near them, they would have very severe reactions until the orange cats were removed. She also found that if you gave Benadyl -- the severity of the sneezes/hives was less Others reported that if someone who had been holding an orange cat came near the individual, the person would have an allergic reaction She didn't think it was the color orange that made people sneeze, but rather perhaps something unusual about the orange cats. Swedo wondered if the issue was a glycoprotein that was in the saliva of cats and found more of the glycoprotein on the hair of orange cats She postulated that people were allergic to the glycoprotein and not specifically to the color of the cat Hmmm Kurlan has been studying allergies for years -- particularly ones that make you break out in hives. He thought that allergies are really common problems and are caused by lots of things He stated that cats are everywhere and it is unlikely that cats are the most likely causes of allergies He designed an experiment where he selected a bunch of people from his hive study group who had allergies (to all sorts of stuff) He asked them if they had ever sneezed or had hives within 1 month of being near a cat Several of them had a cat He then waited a 3 month period and checked if anyone had had hives and seen a cat within the 3 months (not controlling for any other allergens) He then took those who said yes as group A and age matched them with kids who said no He then started monitoring them for 2 years to see if they reported hives (or sneezes) if an orange cat happened to be around Most of the selected children had been taking other medication for controlling hives He didn't control for people who took benadryl or self medicated -- he also allowed people to get treated for hives -- even if they had a cat He calculated that on average each person should meet an orange cat 0.05 times per year He did really clever experiments to detect the proximity of orange cats that involved poking each patient a bunch of times and checking their clothes for cat hair He decided that cat hair alone isn't a good indicator and the person might just be a carrier so he required orange cat hair, hives or sneeze, and someone seeing an orange cat. If you had all 3 then that was a definite orange cat sighting. If you had only 2, it was a probable cat sighting. If you had only 1 it was a possible cat sighting. He found : A small percentage of people who once had hives around a cat are more likely to have hives around a cat That orange cats are not the most common reason that people get hives (especially if they don't meet too many cats, or meet non-orange cats) That his control group didn't happen to meet as many orange cats as he expected That his group of people who got hives didn't seem to have big bouts of sneezing with orange cats [*] He then wrote several papers and gave lectures that his longitudinal study did not confirm that orange cats cause hives seriously calling into question the validity of the allergy to cat hypothesis [*] Finally he raised that the variety of claimed symptoms (some people getting red eyes, some people having scratchy throats, some people sneezing, some having hives, some feeling itchy) seriously undermine the credibility that this all has a similar cause Sneezing = OCD hives = tics cats = strep orange cats dander = GABHS checking clothes for cat hair = throat swab benadryl = antibiotics I'm hoping this sort of casts the two studies in the right light :-) I had some fun with this. Buster Edited April 7, 2010 by Buster
nevergiveup Posted April 7, 2010 Report Posted April 7, 2010 Ok. So also did Kurlan take into account that maybe some of his kids lived with a cat(family member strep carrier) which would completely screw up his anaylsis, I think? Buster, why don't you send this to Kurlan to see if he agrees with your analogy. It would be interesting to see what he comes back with. It may just open his eyes also to something? I was trying to explain the difference between the research approach of Swedo and Kurlan and decided to post an analogy here. I hope you get a chuckle from it. Analogies are tricky and break down -- but see if this makes sense...Swedo noticed that when she ran across people who had allergies a number of them had orange cats. Interestingly, that group of people aren't allergic to all cats -- just orange ones. She found that if you kept them away from orange cats, they didn't sneeze as much But if you brought an orange cat near them, they would have very severe reactions until the orange cats were removed. Others reported that if someone who had been holding an orange cat came near the individual, the person would have an allergic reaction She didn't think it was the color orange that made people sneeze, but rather perhaps something unusual about the orange cats. Swedo wondered if the issue was a glycoprotein that was in the saliva of cats and found more of the glycoprotein on the hair of orange cats She postulated that people were allergic to the glycoprotein and not specifically to the color of the cat Hmmm Kurlan has been studying allergies for years -- particularly ones that make you break out in hives. He thought that allergies are really common problems and are caused by lots of things He stated that cats are everywhere and it is unlikely that cats are the most likely causes of allergies He designed an experiment where he selected a bunch of people who had allergies who also broke out in hives (to all sorts of stuff) He asked them if they had ever sneezed or had hives around a cat Several of them had a cat Then he checked if they had a hives sometime around a cat (but not controlling for any other allergens) He then took those who said yes as group A and age matched them with kids who said no He then started monitoring them for 2 years to see if they reported hives (or sneezes) if an orange cat happened to be around He didn't control for people who took benadryl or self medicated -- he also allowed people to get treated for hives -- even if they had a cat He calculated that on average each person should meet an orange cat 0.05 times per year He did really clever experiments to detect the proximity of orange cats that involved poking each patient a bunch of times and checking their clothes for cat hair He decided that cat hair alone isn't a good indicator and the person might just be a carrier so he required cat hair, hives or sneeze, and someone seeing a cat He found : A small percentage of people who once had hives around a cat are more likely to have hives around a cat That cats are not the most common reason that people get hives (especially if they don't meet too many cats) That his control group didn't happen to meet as many orange cats as he expected That his group of people who got hives didn't seem to have big bouts of sneezing with cats Sneezing = OCD hives = tics cats = strep orange cats = GABHS checking clothes for cat hair = throat swab I'm hoping this sort of casts the two studies in the right light :-) Analogy is a bit strained but close Buster
Buster Posted April 7, 2010 Author Report Posted April 7, 2010 Clearly I'll have tighten it up a bit :-) But no, he didn't take that into account -- he focused on whether the person with Hives had cat hair on them -- not whether someone else in the house had cat hair on them. Buster Ok. So also did Kurlan take into account that maybe some of his kids lived with a cat(family member strep carrier) which would completely screw up his anaylsis, I think? Buster, why don't you send this to Kurlan to see if he agrees with your analogy. It would be interesting to see what he comes back with. It may just open his eyes also to something? I was trying to explain the difference between the research approach of Swedo and Kurlan and decided to post an analogy here. I hope you get a chuckle from it. Analogies are tricky and break down -- but see if this makes sense...Swedo noticed that when she ran across people who had allergies a number of them had orange cats. Interestingly, that group of people aren't allergic to all cats -- just orange ones. She found that if you kept them away from orange cats, they didn't sneeze as much But if you brought an orange cat near them, they would have very severe reactions until the orange cats were removed. Others reported that if someone who had been holding an orange cat came near the individual, the person would have an allergic reaction She didn't think it was the color orange that made people sneeze, but rather perhaps something unusual about the orange cats. Swedo wondered if the issue was a glycoprotein that was in the saliva of cats and found more of the glycoprotein on the hair of orange cats She postulated that people were allergic to the glycoprotein and not specifically to the color of the cat Hmmm Kurlan has been studying allergies for years -- particularly ones that make you break out in hives. He thought that allergies are really common problems and are caused by lots of things He stated that cats are everywhere and it is unlikely that cats are the most likely causes of allergies He designed an experiment where he selected a bunch of people who had allergies who also broke out in hives (to all sorts of stuff) He asked them if they had ever sneezed or had hives around a cat Several of them had a cat Then he checked if they had a hives sometime around a cat (but not controlling for any other allergens) He then took those who said yes as group A and age matched them with kids who said no He then started monitoring them for 2 years to see if they reported hives (or sneezes) if an orange cat happened to be around He didn't control for people who took benadryl or self medicated -- he also allowed people to get treated for hives -- even if they had a cat He calculated that on average each person should meet an orange cat 0.05 times per year He did really clever experiments to detect the proximity of orange cats that involved poking each patient a bunch of times and checking their clothes for cat hair He decided that cat hair alone isn't a good indicator and the person might just be a carrier so he required cat hair, hives or sneeze, and someone seeing a cat He found : A small percentage of people who once had hives around a cat are more likely to have hives around a cat That cats are not the most common reason that people get hives (especially if they don't meet too many cats) That his control group didn't happen to meet as many orange cats as he expected That his group of people who got hives didn't seem to have big bouts of sneezing with cats Sneezing = OCD hives = tics cats = strep orange cats = GABHS checking clothes for cat hair = throat swab I'm hoping this sort of casts the two studies in the right light :-) Analogy is a bit strained but close Buster
sf_mom Posted April 7, 2010 Report Posted April 7, 2010 Love It.... At least send it to Swedo, Cunningham, Dr. K, Dr. T, Dr. L, Dr. Kaplan, etc. for a good chuckle.
MomWithOCDSon Posted April 7, 2010 Report Posted April 7, 2010 Clearly I'll have tighten it up a bit :-) But no, he didn't take that into account -- he focused on whether the person with Hives had cat hair on them -- not whether someone else in the house had cat hair on them. Buster And as we all know, if there's a cat in the house at ALL, the cat hair is EVERYWHERE, so no one is spared the hair And what of the DANDER (Myco P, maybe?), which can be the true allergen to many who are sensitive to cats, orange or non-orange? Real life/true story -- my DS cannot even be in a house that had a cat (of any color) in it within the last week, even if the cat has been removed for his visit, and even if the house has been cleaned from top to bottom. The remains of any dander that the vacuum failed to suck up is enough to send him into sneezing fits and instant congestion!
thereishope Posted April 7, 2010 Report Posted April 7, 2010 I'm allergic to cats (real cats, not analogy cats). If I am around a cat and my throat starts to itch and I start to sneeze, I will continue to have that problems for a couple of days afterwards...even if a cat is not around. So, there's your antibody staying in the system after erradicating the trigger.
Fixit Posted April 7, 2010 Report Posted April 7, 2010 To add my ds is allergic to real cats.....but not all cats...some he can pet(not just the hairless kind) and be fine. A family had outside cats and we were outside and his eyes were almost shut w/i minutes... And i seriously think it might do with color...(ithink)....the lighter colored cats don't seem to bother him as much as the dark colored cats???? (could that pertain as well do different strains of strep that hit certain regions or certain years) on severity I was trying to explain the difference between the research approach of Swedo and Kurlan and decided to post an analogy here. I hope you get a chuckle from it. Analogies are tricky and break down -- but see if this makes sense...Swedo noticed that when she ran across people who had allergies a number of them had orange cats. Interestingly, that group of people aren't allergic to all cats -- just orange ones. She found that if you kept them away from orange cats, they didn't sneeze as much But if you brought an orange cat near them, they would have very severe reactions until the orange cats were removed. She also found that if you gave Benadyl -- the severity of the sneezes/hives was less Others reported that if someone who had been holding an orange cat came near the individual, the person would have an allergic reaction She didn't think it was the color orange that made people sneeze, but rather perhaps something unusual about the orange cats. Swedo wondered if the issue was a glycoprotein that was in the saliva of cats and found more of the glycoprotein on the hair of orange cats She postulated that people were allergic to the glycoprotein and not specifically to the color of the cat Hmmm Kurlan has been studying allergies for years -- particularly ones that make you break out in hives. He thought that allergies are really common problems and are caused by lots of things He stated that cats are everywhere and it is unlikely that cats are the most likely causes of allergies He designed an experiment where he selected a bunch of people from his hive study group who had allergies (to all sorts of stuff) He asked them if they had ever sneezed or had hives around a cat Several of them had a cat he then waited a 3 month period and checked if anyone had had hives and seen a cat within the 3 months (not controlling for any other allergens) He then took those who said yes as group A and age matched them with kids who said no He then started monitoring them for 2 years to see if they reported hives (or sneezes) if an orange cat happened to be around Most of the selected children had been taking other medication for controlling hives He didn't control for people who took benadryl or self medicated -- he also allowed people to get treated for hives -- even if they had a cat He calculated that on average each person should meet an orange cat 0.05 times per year He did really clever experiments to detect the proximity of orange cats that involved poking each patient a bunch of times and checking their clothes for cat hair He decided that cat hair alone isn't a good indicator and the person might just be a carrier so he required orange cat hair, hives or sneeze, and someone seeing an orange cat. If you had all 3 then that was a definite orange cat sighting. If you had only 2, it was a probable cat sighting. If you had only 1 it was a possible cat sighting. He found : A small percentage of people who once had hives around a cat are more likely to have hives around a cat That orange cats are not the most common reason that people get hives (especially if they don't meet too many cats, or meet non-orange cats) That his control group didn't happen to meet as many orange cats as he expected That his group of people who got hives didn't seem to have big bouts of sneezing with orange cats He then started giving speeches about how his longitudinal study did not confirm that orange cats cause hives seriously calling into question the validity of the allergy to cat hypothesis Finally he raised that the variety of claimed symptoms (some people getting red eyes, some people having scratch throats, some people sneezing, some having hives, some feeling itchy) seriously undermine the credibility that this all has a similar cause Sneezing = OCD hives = tics cats = strep orange cats dander = GABHS checking clothes for cat hair = throat swab benadryl = antibiotics I'm hoping this sort of casts the two studies in the right light :-) I had some fun with this. Buster
MomWithOCDSon Posted April 7, 2010 Report Posted April 7, 2010 To add my ds is allergic to real cats.....but not all cats...some he can pet(not just the hairless kind) and be fine.A family had outside cats and we were outside and his eyes were almost shut w/i minutes... And i seriously think it might do with color...(ithink)....the lighter colored cats don't seem to bother him as much as the dark colored cats???? (could that pertain as well do different strains of strep that hit certain regions or certain years) on severity If different ethnicities and races of humans can be more susceptible to different disorders and diseases, and different strains of strep and other infectious agents find safer harbor in some environments more so than in others, then why isn't it entirely possible that different kinds of cats (maybe color is just a characteristic of a breed or other genetic factors) would produce a different variety and/or intensity of allergen? At the risk of sounding like Oprah or something . . . I truly believe there is more "interconnectedness" to all of our health issues than typical Western medicine is ready to admit. The more you read and the more you hear, the more you realize that inflammation of just about ANY part of the body is generally not a good thing, and that many illnesses are caused by it. So, allergies can make PANDAS worse, and probably vice versa. I'm thinking that hormones are playing a larger part in my DS's PANDAS and behaviors, given as he's entering puberty, and hormones can cause inflammation also. Buster, it's a constant tussle in science and medicine, isn't it, determining the correct parameters for research so as to eliminate any components that might unduly influence your variable, while at the same time being careful not to inappropriately exclude a component that, while initially appearing immaterial, could hold at least a pin in the key-making machine, if not the whole key itself?
Worried_Dad Posted April 7, 2010 Report Posted April 7, 2010 LOVED it... and it makes me damned glad that we got a puppy instead of a cat!
MomWithOCDSon Posted April 8, 2010 Report Posted April 8, 2010 LOVED it... and it makes me damned glad that we got a puppy instead of a cat! Hey, I'm sure Buster can work with that, too! •Swedo noticed that when she ran across people who had allergies a number of them had black puppies.•Interestingly, that group of people aren't allergic to all puppies -- just black ones. •She found that if you kept them away from black puppies, they didn't sneeze as much . . . . . . .
Fixit Posted April 8, 2010 Report Posted April 8, 2010 Oh thanks!!! i needed that!!!! LOVED it... and it makes me damned glad that we got a puppy instead of a cat!
JAG10 Posted April 8, 2010 Report Posted April 8, 2010 Verse, anyone? There once was a cool cat named Buster Analysis he always could muster Did you get his post? He’s smarter than most. No wonder my brain starts to fluster.
3boysmom Posted April 8, 2010 Report Posted April 8, 2010 (edited) I was trying to explain the difference between the research approach of Swedo and Kurlan and decided to post an analogy here. I hope you get a chuckle from it. Analogies are tricky and break down -- but see if this makes sense...Swedo noticed that when she ran across people who had allergies a number of them had orange cats. Interestingly, that group of people aren't allergic to all cats -- just orange ones. She found that if you kept them away from orange cats, they didn't sneeze as much But if you brought an orange cat near them, they would have very severe reactions until the orange cats were removed. She also found that if you gave Benadyl -- the severity of the sneezes/hives was less Others reported that if someone who had been holding an orange cat came near the individual, the person would have an allergic reaction She didn't think it was the color orange that made people sneeze, but rather perhaps something unusual about the orange cats. Swedo wondered if the issue was a glycoprotein that was in the saliva of cats and found more of the glycoprotein on the hair of orange cats She postulated that people were allergic to the glycoprotein and not specifically to the color of the cat Hmmm Kurlan has been studying allergies for years -- particularly ones that make you break out in hives. He thought that allergies are really common problems and are caused by lots of things He stated that cats are everywhere and it is unlikely that cats are the most likely causes of allergies He designed an experiment where he selected a bunch of people from his hive study group who had allergies (to all sorts of stuff) He asked them if they had ever sneezed or had hives within 1 month of being near a cat Several of them had a cat He then waited a 3 month period and checked if anyone had had hives and seen a cat within the 3 months (not controlling for any other allergens) He then took those who said yes as group A and age matched them with kids who said no He then started monitoring them for 2 years to see if they reported hives (or sneezes) if an orange cat happened to be around Most of the selected children had been taking other medication for controlling hives He didn't control for people who took benadryl or self medicated -- he also allowed people to get treated for hives -- even if they had a cat He calculated that on average each person should meet an orange cat 0.05 times per year He did really clever experiments to detect the proximity of orange cats that involved poking each patient a bunch of times and checking their clothes for cat hair He decided that cat hair alone isn't a good indicator and the person might just be a carrier so he required orange cat hair, hives or sneeze, and someone seeing an orange cat. If you had all 3 then that was a definite orange cat sighting. If you had only 2, it was a probable cat sighting. If you had only 1 it was a possible cat sighting. He found : A small percentage of people who once had hives around a cat are more likely to have hives around a cat That orange cats are not the most common reason that people get hives (especially if they don't meet too many cats, or meet non-orange cats) That his control group didn't happen to meet as many orange cats as he expected That his group of people who got hives didn't seem to have big bouts of sneezing with orange cats [*] He then wrote several papers and gave lectures that his longitudinal study did not confirm that orange cats cause hives seriously calling into question the validity of the allergy to cat hypothesis [*] Finally he raised that the variety of claimed symptoms (some people getting red eyes, some people having scratchy throats, some people sneezing, some having hives, some feeling itchy) seriously undermine the credibility that this all has a similar cause Sneezing = OCD hives = tics cats = strep orange cats dander = GABHS checking clothes for cat hair = throat swab benadryl = antibiotics I'm hoping this sort of casts the two studies in the right light :-) I had some fun with this. Buster Brilliant! Edited April 8, 2010 by 3boysmom
MomWithOCDSon Posted April 8, 2010 Report Posted April 8, 2010 Verse, anyone? There once was a cool cat named Buster Analysis he always could muster Did you get his post? He’s smarter than most. No wonder my brain starts to fluster. I see Buster's not the only one in this group with a talent for writing!
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now