ADD/ADHD

[michele]

For those of you who deal with ADD/ADHD along with tics how are you treating the ADHD? I have heard several times from the teacher (after I called an evaluation meeting for OT and revealed the PANDAS diagnosis) that my son, now six is having trouble staying focused, completing his work, following directions and not making eye contact, and running in the room or making noises. How do I treat this without meds? I am already giving him Taurine, 5HTP, GABA Calm, and ADDED Attention before school. At night he gets omniseph, more GABA, another 5HTP, amino acids, nystatin, primodophilus, vitamins and individualized amino acids. I am going to try the Corremega again and watch for side effects, also I thought about inositol. Any other suggestions? I knew this was a symptom of the PANDAS and expected it to play a role at school. How do you all deal with these behaviors at school? He is already behind in handwriting and gross motor skills. Now I feel I have opened a can of worms that may have put him under a microscope. At the first meeting the teacher said he had never shown any problems in the classroom. I came armed with information on PANDAS. Since the meeting (and before the next meeting to discuss the evaluation ) the teacher is suddenly concerned. Could he just be covering his self? I am so worried because I want him to do well in school. He is smart. I just know that he needs to get focused. I know the neurologist will want to use ADD meds. What do you all use? Dr. Murphy had said the ADD would cause more trouble then the tics for him. She suggested tennex if the ADD got worse. At what point do you say the supplements are not working? Thanks.

 

 

Michele

[Calicat]

Hi Michele,

 

I hope this comes across in the spirit it's intended, and that is one of just sharing some thoughts I had while I read your post.

 

I am a teacher, and a mom of a child the same age as yours. May I ask if he's still in kindergarten, or in grade 1? I know that I have have no idea how he actually acts in the classroom, or what his ADD symptoms are. I just wanted to say that the symptoms of lack of focus, poor printing, poor gross motor skills, and so on, are not too unusual for a boy of that age. With a couple of years of maturity, those things tend to improve. Honestly, often I wish our schools were set up with more respect for the developmental stages of young children, like they are in some European countries where they don't teach reading until age 7, and yet those children's scores quickly surpass North American children's scores within a couple of years. Children 6 and under, I believe, should do a lot of PLAYING. My daughter just turned six in December. She is the youngest in her class of grade 1 students. Fortunately, she is able to handle the academics and the classroom structure. But, I do feel a certain guilt that she sat through full days of learning for the first four months of grade one as a FIVE year old. It seems ridiculous to me that an energetic, happy, exploratory child of that age should be stuck in a desk!!

 

Sorry about the tangental rant I guess I just wanted to say that your son may be reacting in a rather normal way to these expectations on him, when all he wants to do is run around and have fun!

 

I did want to encourage you to try some "therapies" in addition to the supplement program. Have you worked on his attention span at home? I certainly don't advocate extra homework or anything like that, but there are activities that I believe are developmentally appropriate.

 

Do you read him chapter books? By age six, their listening abilities are much in advance of their reading abilities. If he has a strong background in being read to every day (10 or 15 minutes a day) from books that have challenged him (reasonably sophisticated sentence structures, use of interesting words, etc.), then he should be able to transition to chapter books nicely (if you haven't already). Start slowly and work up to a good 15 minutes of reading aloud at a time. Because of the lack of pictures, this is a great way to get a child to learn to focus intensely, because otherwise they will miss out on what happens in the story. This focus translates well to the classroom. By the way, radio dramas and books on tape are also good for this.

 

I also highly recommend games as a way to teach focus. The right games are a super tool because they can be very engaging to the child, but demand the child's concentration to win. I am not so much talking about traditional "roll-and-move" games like Snakes and Ladders or Candyland... these require no decision making on the part of the child, and therefore do not demand concentration. I mean high quality games such as Labyrinth, where you must move pieces on a sliding board to help your pawn navigate dungeon paths to reach certain treasures you need.

 

Thirdly, I believe music can be a tremendous tool in this way. In our house, we listen to a lot of "family" music, which often has sophisticated music coupled with entertaining, family-friendly lyrics. By singing along together and learning the words to countless songs, the brain automatically focuses. As a side benefit, you can really expand a child's knowledge of the world around them through high-quality songs. Like: "Though I work in science/I don't truly understand/When I woke up I could fit/In the palm of Aiden's hand/ He sees the opportunity to bind me up with wire/ he makes me the conductor in his railroading empire" from The Hipwaders. (In this song, the father has inexplicably shrunk to toy size, and his son Aiden is "playing trains" with him.) In just a few of the lines, it introduces the words palm, opportunity, conductor, empire, not to mention imagination is demanded to imagine the daddy shrinking to fit in a toy train. Through listening, learning, and singing along, the child expands their vocabulary. Then, in the classroom, if the teacher brings up a concept they know about, they are instantly more engaged because it is familiar and they can build on it. Taking music classes in rhythm, movement, voice, or piano can also aid tremendously in focus. (I am also a piano teacher.)

 

Anyway, sorry... hope this doesn't sound lecture-y. And perhaps you are already doing much of this. I just wanted to share some ideas. Granted, none of them are quick and easy answers. They all involve a daily or near-daily time committment, not to mention patience, as results are cumulative and long-term. But I really do believe they change the way a child concentrates and thinks. Also, I would tend to be cautious about screen and media time, especially any that is too fast moving and stimulating, like MTV or many video games. When the brain is used to that type of stimulation, it is very hard to sit in a desk and focus on chalk marks on a board.

 

I hope this in some way gives you some ideas that are helpful. If you want any specific suggestions on books, games, or music, I would be happy to help! I am very into those three hobbies and have a LOT of information I would love to share.

 

Calicat

[michele]

Thanks Calicat. The thing is he is so smart. We have been reading him Harry Potter and many other indepth books like Eragon since age three. I am a librarian and elementary teacher too so I love to read and we read aloud alot. He loves music and can memorize songs like High School Music and repeat them exactly since age four. When it comes to games we do play them but he can be a poor loser. Yesterday he was done after round two of Candy Land. (We were playing best of three) Maybe he is bored. He can sit and search the internet for hours. He looks ups movies, and songs and library catalogs. But, the topics he likes are much older then his age group. For instance at age four he loved March of the Penguins and I had to read him the large fiction book from the movie. Also he loves online games. However he does love TV and movies and maybe that does attribute to his short attention of boring details like cutting out hearts. He is 6 and in kindergarten. Usually his teacher would be so patient and overlook things. Maybe I brought this too much to his attention with my concerns. I think they have a hard time testing him because he gets distracted during the tests. His memory of details from the past is remarkable. I know what you are saying about expectations being high but they want them to read by the end of kindergaten so I think they begin getting alarmed if they can't keep up. I am getting him tutored and OT weekly also. Plus he is on a GF diet and of taking all his supplements. I will continue to do these things daily. Thanks for your advice they are good suggestions.

 

Michele

 

Hi Michele,

 

I hope this comes across in the spirit it's intended, and that is one of just sharing some thoughts I had while I read your post.

 

I am a teacher, and a mom of a child the same age as yours. May I ask if he's still in kindergarten, or in grade 1? I know that I have have no idea how he actually acts in the classroom, or what his ADD symptoms are. I just wanted to say that the symptoms of lack of focus, poor printing, poor gross motor skills, and so on, are not too unusual for a boy of that age. With a couple of years of maturity, those things tend to improve. Honestly, often I wish our schools were set up with more respect for the developmental stages of young children, like they are in some European countries where they don't teach reading until age 7, and yet those children's scores quickly surpass North American children's scores within a couple of years. Children 6 and under, I believe, should do a lot of PLAYING. My daughter just turned six in December. She is the youngest in her class of grade 1 students. Fortunately, she is able to handle the academics and the classroom structure. But, I do feel a certain guilt that she sat through full days of learning for the first four months of grade one as a FIVE year old. It seems ridiculous to me that an energetic, happy, exploratory child of that age should be stuck in a desk!!

 

Sorry about the tangental rant I guess I just wanted to say that your son may be reacting in a rather normal way to these expectations on him, when all he wants to do is run around and have fun!

 

I did want to encourage you to try some "therapies" in addition to the supplement program. Have you worked on his attention span at home? I certainly don't advocate extra homework or anything like that, but there are activities that I believe are developmentally appropriate.

 

Do you read him chapter books? By age six, their listening abilities are much in advance of their reading abilities. If he has a strong background in being read to every day (10 or 15 minutes a day) from books that have challenged him (reasonably sophisticated sentence structures, use of interesting words, etc.), then he should be able to transition to chapter books nicely (if you haven't already). Start slowly and work up to a good 15 minutes of reading aloud at a time. Because of the lack of pictures, this is a great way to get a child to learn to focus intensely, because otherwise they will miss out on what happens in the story. This focus translates well to the classroom. By the way, radio dramas and books on tape are also good for this.

 

I also highly recommend games as a way to teach focus. The right games are a super tool because they can be very engaging to the child, but demand the child's concentration to win. I am not so much talking about traditional "roll-and-move" games like Snakes and Ladders or Candyland... these require no decision making on the part of the child, and therefore do not demand concentration. I mean high quality games such as Labyrinth, where you must move pieces on a sliding board to help your pawn navigate dungeon paths to reach certain treasures you need.

 

Thirdly, I believe music can be a tremendous tool in this way. In our house, we listen to a lot of "family" music, which often has sophisticated music coupled with entertaining, family-friendly lyrics. By singing along together and learning the words to countless songs, the brain automatically focuses. As a side benefit, you can really expand a child's knowledge of the world around them through high-quality songs. Like: "Though I work in science/I don't truly understand/When I woke up I could fit/In the palm of Aiden's hand/ He sees the opportunity to bind me up with wire/ he makes me the conductor in his railroading empire" from The Hipwaders. (In this song, the father has inexplicably shrunk to toy size, and his son Aiden is "playing trains" with him.) In just a few of the lines, it introduces the words palm, opportunity, conductor, empire, not to mention imagination is demanded to imagine the daddy shrinking to fit in a toy train. Through listening, learning, and singing along, the child expands their vocabulary. Then, in the classroom, if the teacher brings up a concept they know about, they are instantly more engaged because it is familiar and they can build on it. Taking music classes in rhythm, movement, voice, or piano can also aid tremendously in focus. (I am also a piano teacher.)

 

Anyway, sorry... hope this doesn't sound lecture-y. And perhaps you are already doing much of this. I just wanted to share some ideas. Granted, none of them are quick and easy answers. They all involve a daily or near-daily time committment, not to mention patience, as results are cumulative and long-term. But I really do believe they change the way a child concentrates and thinks. Also, I would tend to be cautious about screen and media time, especially any that is too fast moving and stimulating, like MTV or many video games. When the brain is used to that type of stimulation, it is very hard to sit in a desk and focus on chalk marks on a board.

 

I hope this in some way gives you some ideas that are helpful. If you want any specific suggestions on books, games, or music, I would be happy to help! I am very into those three hobbies and have a LOT of information I would love to share.

 

Calicat

[emma1]

I have a child the age of your children, and would love any and all suggestions of good books to read aloud, or games to play. I am always looking for good ideas, and any that increase concentration and attention span would be ideal.

[kim]

Michelle,

 

Is this the ADDED attention supplement that you're using?

 

http://circleofhealers.com/vitamins/product.php?skew=3106

[michele]

Yes, Kim that is the one I bought. $22.00. I put one tsp in a small bit of juice before school. I was givivng it to all of my kids. I noticed the one getting mouth sores though. It is a citrus drink. You can't taste the vitamins at all. My 11 year old daughter said it helped her focus. At the bottom of the cup you can see the brown color somewhat. Also I noticed the guy at the vitamin shop gave me 100 mg of 5HTP rather then the 50 mg that were on the bottle I showed him. Do you think 100 mg would be too much? I think I will try to return it but I opened the bottle. What do you think about the drink? Has anyone else used it? the supplier recommended it at the Health store because it was easy to get down and good ingredients. Yesterday my 8 yr. old daughter was having touble focusing at school and was emotional when I had given it to her. Maybe it does not work!

 

Michele

 

Michelle,

 

Is this the ADDED attention supplement that you're using?

 

http://circleofhealers.com/vitamins/product.php?skew=3106

[Chemar]

nativeremedies.com has remedies for add/adhd that i have heard good things about

 

my son does not have hyperactivity but does have ADD

Omega3 and gingko biloba helped him very much....tho hard to say whether the combination of these with his other supps may have had the overall benefit

 

for children who do NOT have autoimmune issues....borage oil is supposed to be very helpful for ADHD

[kim]

Michelle,

 

Edit...think I responded on wrong thread

 

Could you tell me the effects of l-tyrosine? Dr. Demio did tell me in the beginning to use TMG or GABA I believe

 

 

Andrew is taking phenylalanine in his amino's right? Phenylalanine is converted into tyrosine. Tyrosine is a precursor to Dopamine. Added tyrosine in his GABA supplement might not be a good idea.

 

Dopamine is important in attention and focus. Too much dopamine may exacerbate tics. These are very simplistic statements and certainly not the whole picture, but, balancing the neurotransmitters is what appears to be the essential thing. You just have to be careful, since he is on a protocol that is based on testing, that you don't add something inadvertantly to upset the balance that the Dr. is trying to achieve. As his body adjusts to the substances that may have been in short supply before, I would think it would be reasonable to see some differences in behavior. It may take a while for him to level out?

 

Do you see a difference in his actions at home?

 

 

Here are a couple of sites you might want to look at to get familiar with some of the neurotransmitters involved in both conditions. I'm trying to stick to easy reading sites Cheri pointed out to someone, that Mrs D on Neurotalk has loads of info on ADHD. I believe she would be a great resource, for specific questions that you might have http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/forum49.html

 

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/adhd.html

 

The cause of ADHD is not clear-cut. It appears that certain receptors in the brain which normally respond to the neurotransmitter called dopamine are not working properly. Most likely, dopamine is not being produced at normal levels in the brain. Recent work in adults points to a defect in an enzyme called dopa decarboxylase which helps make dopamine. This defect in dopamine production occurs in the anterior frontal cortex, an area associated with cognitive processes such as focusing and attention.

 

 

Dopamine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

 

 

http://www.raysahelian.com/phenylalanine.html

 

Phenylalanine is an essential amino acid. Inside the body, phenylalanine is converted into tyrosine, another amino acid. Tyrosine is then used to produce dopamine and norepinephrine, both neurotransmitters. All of these elements are important because of their relationship to the central nervous system.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosine

 

Tyrosine (abbreviated as Tyr or Y)[1] or 4-hydroxyphenylalanine, is one of the 20 amino acids that are used by cells to synthesize proteins. This is a non-essential amino acid and it is found in large quantities in casein. In fact, the word "tyrosine" is from the Greek tyros, meaning cheese, as it was first discovered in 1846 by German chemist Justus von Liebig in the protein casein from cheese

 

 

Precursor to hormones

In the adrenal gland, tyrosine is converted to levodopa by the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase (TH). TH is also the rate-limiting enzyme involved in the synthesis of the catecholamine hormones dopamine, norepinephrine (noradrenaline), and epinephrine.

 

The thyroid hormones triiodothyronine (T3) and thyroxine (T4) in the colloid of the thyroid also are derived from tyrosine.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine

 

Norepinephrine (INN) (abbr. norepi or NE) or noradrenaline (BAN) is a catecholamine and a phenethylamine. The natural stereoisomer is L-(−)-®-norepinephrine. The prefix nor-, is derived from the German abbreviation for "N ohne Radikal" (N, the symbol for nitrogen, without radical),[2] referring to the absence of the methyl functional group at the nitrogen atom of epinephrine.

 

Norepinephrine is synthesized from dopamine by dopamine β-hydroxylase.[3] It is released from the adrenal medulla into the blood as a hormone, and is also a neurotransmitter in the central nervous system and sympathetic nervous system where it is released from noradrenergic neurons. The actions of norepinephrine are carried out via the binding to adrenergic receptors.

 

As a stress hormone, norepinephrine affects parts of the brain where attention and responding actions are controlled. Along with epinephrine, norepinephrine also underlies the fight-or-flight response, directly increasing heart rate, triggering the release of glucose from energy stores, and increasing blood flow to skeletal muscle.

 

However, when norepinephrine acts as a drug it will increase blood pressure, triggering a compensatory reflex that overcomes its direct stimulatory effects on the heart. The reflex, called the baroreceptor reflex, results in a drop in heart rate called reflex bradycardia

[kim]

Michelle

 

in addition to above post ....

 

I am already giving him Taurine, 5HTP, GABA Calm, and ADDED Attention before school. At night he gets omniseph, more GABA, another 5HTP, amino acids, nystatin, primodophilus, vitamins and individualized amino acids.

 

The Added Attention also has GABA and sodium benzoate yuck!

 

Have you been giving (2) 100 mgs. of 5HTP a day? If so, that sure seems like it could be high.

 

You might want to look at total amt of vit B btwn his multi and the ADDED Attention too.

[faith]

"Tyrosine (abbreviated as Tyr or Y)[1] or 4-hydroxyphenylalanine, is one of the 20 amino acids that are used by cells to synthesize proteins. This is a non-essential amino acid and it is found in large quantities in casein. In fact, the word "tyrosine" is from the Greek tyros, meaning cheese, as it was first discovered in 1846 by German chemist Justus von Liebig in the protein casein from cheese"

 

..................................................................................................

 

 

I wonder if the above is why some of us are having a hard time with dairy with regards to increase in tics? If tyrosine is "found in large quantities in casein", perhaps that is the problem with milk and dairy? Just a thought...

 

 

So having high dopamine is not a good thing for tics, but is it preferable for those with ADHD?

My son is not hyper, (although is like the energizer bunny when it comes to playing, like C.P. has mentioned about her son).

 

Faith

[kim]

removed. Starting new thread

[Calicat]

Hi emma1,

I'll mail you privately tonight or tomorrow to share some of my great finds (to keep the thread on topic)

 

Talk to you soon.

 

Calicat

[michele]

I was giving 50 mg of 5HTP a day except on a couple days I think I gave 50 mg in the AM and 50 mg. in the evening. The dumb guy at Vit shoppe gave me a 100mg bottle when I brought in a 50mg bottle to get the same thing. He must not of read the label! I took it back for an exchange. What is the effect of sodium benzoate? A preservative? , 3 gummi bears have 1 mg b-6. The 5HTP has 10 mg. I did not give him the entire dosage of Added Atention just one tbsp. which is 15mg b-6. How much b-6 should a 37 pound six year old get? Is there a list of the amounts they should be getting? This is getting confusing.

 

Michele

 

Michelle

 

in addition to above post ....

 

I am already giving him Taurine, 5HTP, GABA Calm, and ADDED Attention before school. At night he gets omniseph, more GABA, another 5HTP, amino acids, nystatin, primodophilus, vitamins and individualized amino acids.

 

The Added Attention also has GABA and sodium benzoate yuck!

 

Have you been giving (2) 100 mgs. of 5HTP a day? If so, that sure seems like it could be high.

 

You might want to look at total amt of vit B btwn his multi and the ADDED Attention too.

[kim]

Michelle,

 

Those amts of b 6 are not anything to really be concerned about, IMO. I am wondering though, if you are also supplementing P5P per your DAN? If you are, you may want to avoid addition B6 when possible. The 3 mgs. contained in the gummies, I personally wouldn't be concerned about in addition to P5P, if you are giving that. B6 is a water soluable vit. Unused amts. will be excreted in the urine ( I do want to add though, that i don't believe any of us want to give more of anything than is really necessary, and keeping a good balance on B vits is important. Supplementing high amts of one, can lead to deficiency in others if unbalanced).

 

In Bontech vits, the recommended daily for 35 to 66 lbs is 10 to 14 capsules. Assuming you gave 10, you would be dosing 50 mgs of B6.

 

Is there a list of the amounts they should be getting

 

The daily recommended allowance is easy to find, but that isn't going to help in amts. that are recommended for theraputic values. Again, since you have had testing and a really good DAN guiding you, I would stick as close to possible on what he's recommending.

 

The thing about the sodium benzoate that concerned me the most, was just the intergrity of the whole product. I don't believe the truly reputable manufactureres of supplements are using that type of preservative. I found it, in almost every type of syrup on the store shelves, many other products too.

 

 

Here is some reading that may help.

 

On P5P....the first one discusses the benefits of using P5P over plain B6. I was hoping it would give the conversion rate, but it doesn't. I hope someone else knows and will post. I know you need to use less P5P as opposed to B6

 

http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/article/...vitamin-b6.html

http://www.raysahelian.com/pyridoxal5phophatep5p.html

 

On sodium benzoate

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/he...lth-450593.html