Have to post this

[kim]

Regarding the article that I posted by David Kirby yesterday

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/...s-_b_66007.html

 

 

I have to ask the question of the members of this forum, Does anyone else here see what I'm seeing? This has been a nagging dilema of mine, since I was either cursed or blessed (believe me somedays I feel it was the later) to make the decision to see what all of the hoop la was regarding vaccinations/thimerosal.

 

I'm going to keep this brief, unless there is more of a response than I have seen with previous discussion. I truly do not mean this to sound kurt, I'm just frustrated. For what seems like years, I have been astonished at how little reference I have seen to TS or tic syndromes in regards to vaccines. It's always about Autism or ADHD. BUT the CDC has handed us evidence at least TWICE that I know of, where TICS have been an increased outcome, by their own admission, and needs further investigation. Has anyone with children born between the late 198O's and 1999, who have been diagnosed by a neurologist, been contacted? I haven't.

Does anyone even collect data on diagnosed kids? I just strongly feel the need to make noise about this.

 

Do the children who fit the criteria, not offer a HUGE opportunity, to either answer some questions regarding harm that may have been caused by thimerosal( or just vaccines in general?), since this is a question that is even being posed by the CDC?

 

Can I ask why we are trying to find the most reliable/safest way to check mercury levels in our children, without even the benefit of insurance coverage?

 

Please, don't anyone without children born between the years that I mentioned, feel excluded. Just listen to the Pessah lecture about what was seen, when looking down a miroscope when cells were exposed to 1 nanoml thimerosal.

The only reason children born, in that approx 10 year span, are being singled out is because they are likely to have the HIGEST exposure from vaccination, and these are the children who have been studied so far.

 

For anyone who did not read the entire article, which I didn't even do, prior to posting it, would you please consider what is stated near the bottom. Any feed back would be greatly appreciated. Bolding is obviously mine.

 

 

Despite these statistical pressures to drive the numbers downward, the associated risk for tics among boys was a real standout.

Boys who received the highest amounts of thimerosal in the first seven months of life were determined by evaluators to be 2.19 times more likely to have motor tics at age 7-10 years, and 2.44 times more likely to have phonic tics, than boys with the lowest exposures.

Any relative risk between exposure and outcome that exceeds 2.0, incidentally, is considered to be proof of causation in US courts of law.

The researchers did not differentiate between "transient" tics, which go away within a year, and "chronic" tics, which can last a lifetime. Nor did they distinguish between "simple" and "complex" tics.

I know the temptation is strong to think, "Well, it's just tics." But I suggest consulting the literature, which paints a more disturbing picture, especially if it's your kid we are talking about.

The Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders defines "simple" motor tics as "brief, meaningless movements like eye blinking, facial grimacing, head jerks or shoulder shrugs," that usually last less than a second. It says that "complex" motor tics cause slower, longer, more intense movements, "like sustained looks, facial gestures, biting, banging, whirling or twisting around, or copropraxia (obscene gestures)."

On the phonic side, "simple" tics are called, "meaningless sounds or noises like throat clearing, coughing, sniffling, barking, or hissing." Complex phonic tics include, "syllables, words, phrases, and such statements as 'Shut up!' or 'Now you've done it!' The child's speech may be abnormal, with unusual rhythms, tones, accents or intensities."

There is also the "echo phenomenon," (so familiar to autism parents) characterized by "the immediate repetition of one's own or another's words." Coprolalia, meanwhile, is a tic "made up of obscene, inappropriate or aggressive words and statements."

Severe behavioral problems are sometimes associated with tics, as well, and "there is some evidence that temper tantrums, aggressiveness, and explosive behavior appear in preadolescence and intensify in adolescence."

Finally, many children with both phonic and motor tics are diagnosed with Tourette's disorder, which frequently causes "aggressiveness, self-harming behaviors, emotional immaturity, social withdrawal, physical complaints, conduct disorders, affective disorders, anxiety, panic attacks, stuttering, sleep disorders, migraine headaches, and inappropriate sexual behaviors," the Encyclopedia says.

(Interestingly, Tourette's disorder is three-to-four times more common in males than females, the same ratio as autism, ADD and ADHD).

Now, if "simple" tics include head jerks and barking; and "complex" tics can entail biting, banging and screaming obscenities; and if thimerosal can more than double the chance of tics in boys; then Atlanta, we have a very big problem.

It's perplexing that the CDC can report replicating a doubled risk for tics in boys, and an increased risk for speech disorders and attention and behavior problems in other kids, and still insist that this is all "very reassuring news."

I posed the question on the conference call today, and got nothing even resembling an answer (an opinion that was backed up by a producer from ABC News Nightline).

So I will ask it again here.

Given that the CDC has just reported that thimerosal might increase the risk for tics among boys, how is it possible, in addition, to publish the following two phrases within the same report?:

"The findings...suggest a possible adverse association between neonatal exposure to mercury and language development."

AND

"Our study does not support a causal association between early exposure to mercury...and deficits in neuropsychological functioning.

[faith]

All i can say is 'I feel sick'.............

 

And is it a coincidence that the headline of that study on vaccines being safe coming out yesterday or day before, have anything to do with the Jenny McCarthy round of interviews and publicity?

 

This morning when I was in our Dan docs office picking up our supply of B12, the receptionist was on the phone obviously talking to someone inquiring about autism...she was saying "well has he been diagnosed?, we don't diagnose, but we can treat him, ..... etc. -- so I bet they are getting lots of calls from parents who have never explored the DAN protocol before and obviously got something out the the McCarthy publicity.

 

Faith

[bmom]

I just hope that maybe the medical community will take a look at all of this information-shots, biomedical medicine, etc. and see what can happen. If enough people say we did this and within so much time he or she showed improvement-then there has to be something to it. Our children deserve it!!!

[kim]

thanks for the responses Faith and Bmom,

 

I just hope that maybe the medical community will take a look at all of this information-shots, biomedical medicine, etc. and see what can happen

.

 

I think they already know it. Maybe not know exactly what's going on, but I think they have a pretty good idea. That's why they do LAME studies, instead of looking at exactly what is going on in these kids cells/bodies.

 

And is it a coincidence that the headline of that study on vaccines being safe coming out yesterday or day before, have anything to do with the Jenny McCarthy round of interviews and publicity?

 

Faith, they got out of that, exactly what they wanted. A head line. When you start looking at this stuff, its so easy to see how things are ochastrated.

 

My point here is, I think WE are in the best position to demand some answers. Is anyone willing to do it? What would be the best way?

 

I don't care WHAT the outcome is. At least, since it's by there own admission (CDC) how could they bury us with double talk, when THEY have come to the conclusion themselves. What could be learned about tourette syndrome, autism, adhd, ocd (or ruled out) if our kids were studied?

 

What if we contacted David Kirby and said, "heres a group of children, that we as parents, feel may be of interest to you?" Would someone be interested in doing some indepenent testing on our children? Why aren't we sittting on Ophra, Larry King etc. telling that we have children that the CDC says, may have been injured. They say it needs follow up. I agree!

 

If we, and chidren with other spectrum disorders could gain any answers, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?

[juls]

Kim,

 

I think you have a point. If they have a study that strongly links thimerosal with tics in boys then parents of those affected boys (born in the late 80s to 1999) may have a case even stronger then the autism folks who have been barking up this tree for quite some time. That said, I think we are a harder group to organize because our kids often function much better then those with full blown autism. I like your idea about contacting David Kirby.

 

Juls

[Caryn]

Kim,

I just want to say that my son (born 2003) never received a single vaccine with themerisol and still ended up with a tic disorder. It disturbs me to no end that the CDC's comment on Oprah only addressed themerisol and not the ninety million other anti-cellular ingredients that can be just as damaging to our children.

I have some questions for all you mothers out there:

How many of our TS kids were jaundiced at birth? Mine was.

Why does the pediatric community feel it is safe and okay to vaccinate babies with jaundice?

I personally think babies should not be vaccinated in the first year. We chose not to vaccinate ds#3 as he was born about the time ds#1 developed symptoms. #3 has only had 2 shots, and he is the healthiest by far of the three boys.

Why is this affecting boys primarily? Does anyone know?

Caryn

--Maybe what the government needs is a massive all-American class action lawsuit? Every parent that followed the CDC vaccine schedule and ended up with a diagnosis.

[Caryn]

A good read on vaccines for anyone interested:

http://www.relfe.com/vaccine.html

[Toms_Mom]

Kim,

I thought the themerisol was taken out after the year 2000. My son was born in 2000 and I read somewhere that all vaccines contained themerisol through the year 2000. Just wondering.

[kim]

Just wanted to say thank you to all of you for your reponses.

 

I wish I had time to respond to everything, because I think I could write a page on each persons comment

 

easiest one first Tom's Mom (these thoughts responses are just to the best of my knowledge which is extremely limited...no medical training/education or education in any area of science)!

 

I thought the themerisol was taken out after the year 2000. My son was born in 2000 and I read somewhere that all vaccines contained themerisol through the year 2000. Just wondering.

It was recommended for elimination from vaccines in 1999, but there was never a recall. It may have remained on Dr.s shelves, until the expiration dates, which are said to be around 2002, in most articles. Some Flu shots would be an exception, I believe TD boosters, and a few others that are not routinly administered.

 

Caryn,

 

There are several things that I would like to ask you, or comment on from your post. Maybe I can do that in a separate post.

 

How many of our TS kids were jaundiced at birth? Mine was

.

 

My oldest was. He required frequent blood draws, and I was told to stop nursing (blah!) and get a lot of formula in him.

 

I honestly can't remember if youngest was or not. He was one dark baby, but I don't remember taking him for blood tests. I'll have to give that some thought.

 

Why is this affecting boys primarily? Does anyone know?

My understanding is that estrogen is thought to have some protective effects from mercury and testerone a negative.

 

Juls,

 

That said, I think we are a harder group to organize because our kids often function much better then those with full blown autism. I like your idea about contacting David Kirby.

 

Do you think circulating something to different groups, asking for people to email David Kirby stating something like "My child was fully immunized beginning in the year _____, and has been diagnosed with Tourette Syndrome, chonic tics etc," would be beneficial?

 

Did anyone hear anything on the news regarding the new study showing thimerosal not being harmful, that said a possible correlation between thimerosal exposure and tics was found? Was that mentioned anywhere in the media (newspapers -TV), that anyone heard/read?

[kim]

Caryn,

 

I just want to tell you, that the only reason that I'm focusing on thimerosal right now, is because this is what the CDC is questioning it in relationship to tics.

 

I SO understand your concern with other components/applicaton of vaccines.

 

You said that your son never received any thimerosal containing vaxes. I'm not questioning the truth of that, just wondering how you determined it?

 

In the Pessah lecture, which I have referred to many times, he talks about the dendritic cells and how they travel to the lymph system and educate T cells, B cells and he makes a remark something like...and probably NK cells. NK cells would be Natural killer cells.

 

Now, here's a study that looks a familial TS. When we go back so many generations, to me it's quite evident that greatgrandpa, probably did not receive a bunch of mercury containing vaxes, right? But, what if there is something special (faulty) about NK cells in both instances, from different causes. Again, I'm talking about subsets, not all cases. I had a hard time deciding if this was a group of suspected PANDAS kids, or people with just a family history or what. Is there another meaning, for the word familial? Told you guys I didn't have any special knowledge here!

 

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin...262977/ABSTRACT

 

Fourteen genes, primarily Natural Killer Cell (NK) genes, discriminated between TS and all controls

[faith]

Kim,

I want so badly to understand and process all this, I'm trying but afraid I am going to do like the jurors on the O.J. trial where they just couldn't "get" all that info about the DNA and "markers", etc...and since it was so over their heads, they disregarded it and threw it out of the equation.

 

I want to add something useful, because I can see this is all important stuff, but I need things broken down more. You are so good at this research, these people need you on their team! .... Just know that I am reading all this and trying to take it in...so if anything sparks for anyone on any of this and ANY of the technical info we post here, just keep bouncing it off each other and who knows........

 

Did that make any sense?

 

Faith

 

P.S. I would be willing to send one of those e-mails with that statement. Someone could send an introduction and advise that others will be e-mailing, and anyone here who wanted to add to the info, could. ....... how would that benefit tho? Just to put it out there about tics being in the mix?

[kim]

Faith,

 

You are so good at this research, these people need you on their team

!

 

You give me way too much credit Faith. So much of what I share here is info others provide.

 

When people who are educated in these fields speak, I realize how totally naive I am to think that I can piece anything together,but I agree we may as well keep trying.

 

I want to respond to Michele post on another thread here, to keep info in one place. An assistant to a Dr. that she saw recently, made remarks that I felt were extremely arrogant, narrow minded and uninformed.

 

I want to give the link, to the study that started this topic. There are 3 references to 3 separate studies that associate thimerosal exposure with an increase incidence of tics. Two of them are spelled out in the Kirby article and are mentioned in this study which has been published in the NEJM along with the third which can be found a little more than half way down the page. It involves a study of British children, which has found the same association. Now this is just a little more, than the parents here should overlook, wouldn't ya think?

 

Another recent study in regards to diet

 

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/09/27/autism-study.html

 

Compounds produced in the digestive system have been linked to autistic-type behaviour in laboratory settings, potentially demonstrating that what autistic children eat can alter their brain function, say scientists from the University of Western Ontario.

 

Research seems to be coming quickly. I can only hope that it will bear evidence that will come back to bite this guy high on the fatty part of the backside of his upper thigh.

[kim]

I all most feel like apologizing for so many posts today, but I would like to add one more to this thread. I just wanted to let you all know that I registered to post a remark on the Kirby web site. You have to wait for verification and authorization to post. I will be trying to come up with a what I want to say in the mean time.

 

Registering is easy, but several screen names are taken.

 

I can only hope that others on this forum will help flood that site. Whether or not your child was born btwn the years discussed, family history or not, girl or boy, I think there can only be benefit in finding answers to this question. There are other sources of mercury exposure, probably different degrees of sensitivity, (and a whole host of other possibilities) but for now, we may have an opportunity in this one area. Any encouragement for further research ASAP can only be helpful.

[michele]

Wow! You are too good! One interesting thing I observed about this Dr. and I believe he was training under Dr. Murphy for his PHD in Psychiatry, was he never openned his mouth about these strong opinions when Dr. Murphy was in the room. This was all prior to her arrival. In fact she told me of a recent study where Dr. Erenberg was linking tics and hyperactivity to the food color additives I believe. I am so glad to hear about this connection being proved in research. Thanks again for your info.

Michele

 

 

Faith,

 

You are so good at this research, these people need you on their team

!

 

You give me way too much credit Faith. So much of what I share here is info others provide.

 

When people who are educated in these fields speak, I realize how totally naive I am to think that I can piece anything together,but I agree we may as well keep trying.

 

I want to respond to Michele post on another thread here, to keep info in one place. An assistant to a Dr. that she saw recently, made remarks that I felt were extremely arrogant, narrow minded and uninformed.

 

I want to give the link, to the study that started this topic. There are 3 references to 3 separate studies that associate thimerosal exposure with an increase incidence of tics. Two of them are spelled out in the Kirby article and are mentioned in this study which has been published in the NEJM along with the third which can be found a little more than half way down the page. It involves a study of British children, which has found the same association. Now this is just a little more, than the parents here should overlook, wouldn't ya think?

 

Another recent study in regards to diet

 

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/09/27/autism-study.html

 

Compounds produced in the digestive system have been linked to autistic-type behaviour in laboratory settings, potentially demonstrating that what autistic children eat can alter their brain function, say scientists from the University of Western Ontario.

 

Research seems to be coming quickly. I can only hope that it will bear evidence that will come back to bite this guy high on the fatty part of the backside of his upper thigh.

[michele]

A place to respond if you think a vaccine hurt your child. https://secure.vaers.org/VaersDataEntryintro.htm

Michele

 

 

 

 

Regarding the article that I posted by David Kirby yesterday

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/...s-_b_66007.html

 

 

I have to ask the question of the members of this forum, Does anyone else here is see what I am? This has been a nagging dilemma of mine, since I was either cursed or blessed (believe me somedays I feel it was the later) to make the decision to see what all of the hoop la was regarding vaccinations/thimerosal.

 

I'm going to keep this brief, unless there is more of a response than I have seen with previous discussion. I truly do not mean this to sound kurt, I'm just frustrated. For what seems like years, I have been astonished at how little reference I have seen to TS or tic syndromes in regards to vaccines. It's always about Autism or ADHD. BUT the CDC has handed us evidence at least TWICE that I know of, where TICS have been an increased outcome, by their own admission, and needs further investigation. Has anyone with children born between the late 198O's and 1999, who have been diagnosed by a neurologist, been contacted? I haven't.

Does anyone even collect data on diagnosed kids? I just strongly feel the need to make noise about this.

 

Do the children who fit the criteria, not offer a HUGE opportunity, to either answer some questions regarding harm that may have been caused by thimerosal( or just vaccines in general?), since this is a question that is even being posed by the CDC?

 

Can I ask why we are trying to find the most reliable/safest way to check mercury levels in our children, without even the benefit of insurance coverage?

 

Please, don't anyone without children born between the years that I mentioned, feel excluded. Just listen to the Pessah lecture about what was seen, when looking down a miroscope when cells were exposed to 1 nanoml thimerosal.

The only reason children born, in that approx 10 year span, are being singled out is because they are likely to have the HIGEST exposure from vaccination, and these are the children who have been studied so far.

 

For anyone who did not read the entire article, which I didn't even do, prior to posting it, would you please consider what is stated near the bottom. Any feed back would be greatly appreciated. Bolding is obviously mine.

 

 

Despite these statistical pressures to drive the numbers downward, the associated risk for tics among boys was a real standout.

Boys who received the highest amounts of thimerosal in the first seven months of life were determined by evaluators to be 2.19 times more likely to have motor tics at age 7-10 years, and 2.44 times more likely to have phonic tics, than boys with the lowest exposures.

Any relative risk between exposure and outcome that exceeds 2.0, incidentally, is considered to be proof of causation in US courts of law.

The researchers did not differentiate between "transient" tics, which go away within a year, and "chronic" tics, which can last a lifetime. Nor did they distinguish between "simple" and "complex" tics.

I know the temptation is strong to think, "Well, it's just tics." But I suggest consulting the literature, which paints a more disturbing picture, especially if it's your kid we are talking about.

The Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders defines "simple" motor tics as "brief, meaningless movements like eye blinking, facial grimacing, head jerks or shoulder shrugs," that usually last less than a second. It says that "complex" motor tics cause slower, longer, more intense movements, "like sustained looks, facial gestures, biting, banging, whirling or twisting around, or copropraxia (obscene gestures)."

On the phonic side, "simple" tics are called, "meaningless sounds or noises like throat clearing, coughing, sniffling, barking, or hissing." Complex phonic tics include, "syllables, words, phrases, and such statements as 'Shut up!' or 'Now you've done it!' The child's speech may be abnormal, with unusual rhythms, tones, accents or intensities."

There is also the "echo phenomenon," (so familiar to autism parents) characterized by "the immediate repetition of one's own or another's words." Coprolalia, meanwhile, is a tic "made up of obscene, inappropriate or aggressive words and statements."

Severe behavioral problems are sometimes associated with tics, as well, and "there is some evidence that temper tantrums, aggressiveness, and explosive behavior appear in preadolescence and intensify in adolescence."

Finally, many children with both phonic and motor tics are diagnosed with Tourette's disorder, which frequently causes "aggressiveness, self-harming behaviors, emotional immaturity, social withdrawal, physical complaints, conduct disorders, affective disorders, anxiety, panic attacks, stuttering, sleep disorders, migraine headaches, and inappropriate sexual behaviors," the Encyclopedia says.

(Interestingly, Tourette's disorder is three-to-four times more common in males than females, the same ratio as autism, ADD and ADHD).

Now, if "simple" tics include head jerks and barking; and "complex" tics can entail biting, banging and screaming obscenities; and if thimerosal can more than double the chance of tics in boys; then Atlanta, we have a very big problem.

It's perplexing that the CDC can report replicating a doubled risk for tics in boys, and an increased risk for speech disorders and attention and behavior problems in other kids, and still insist that this is all "very reassuring news."

I posed the question on the conference call today, and got nothing even resembling an answer (an opinion that was backed up by a producer from ABC News Nightline).

So I will ask it again here.

Given that the CDC has just reported that thimerosal might increase the risk for tics among boys, how is it possible, in addition, to publish the following two phrases within the same report?:

"The findings...suggest a possible adverse association between neonatal exposure to mercury and language development."

AND

"Our study does not support a causal association between early exposure to mercury...and deficits in neuropsychological functioning.