rx abx v natural abx

[dut]

Hi - there has been some discussion recently about using natural abx such as Olive Leaf Extract instead of rx abx. Our dd7 recently had a very bad/longlasting serum sickness reaction to Augmentin. We are loathe to add zith back just yet 'cos of her possibly increased current risk of forming new allergies while her immune system is so ramped, hence my questions......

 

 

If natural abx eg OLE kill bacteria as well as the rx ones, how come they don't negatively affect the other GI flora the same as rx abx and how come they don't increase the risk of yeast proliferation as much if they kill bacteria just as effectively as rx abx?

 

Do they have a different mechanism? Do they, somehow, effect pathogenic bacteria more than the helpful ones?

 

'scuse my ignorance, just trying to work out if this might be an option for us. My dh is also threatening to jump ship on proph abx 'cos of the horrible reaction our dd had and I think he feels we did it to her, which we did, I guess, but what's the alternative... maybe natural abx?

 

Thanks...

[Priscilla]

look at the post "one week after jumping ship" It talks about how yeast can still be a problem with OLE. I am thinking about stopping abx next week, we have had 3 IVIG with good progress, but I think yeast may be holding us back from 100%

[Chemar]

yes, one can still get candida problems and also die off/herxing reactions with natural antibiotics.

 

we were advised to still take probiotics, again natural ones like kefir and organic yoghurt (Stoneyfield farms)

[dut]

hi - so (don't mean to be dumb but) what's the upside?

 

Are the natural ones for those that can't tolerate the rx abx or are there other reasons you may want to swap to them?

 

thanks..

[Stephanie2]

Well, here is why I "jumped ship"

 

1. DS2 got strep while on prophylactic azith. Very frustrating. Is that b/c it was an azith resistent strain of strep? In the past 4 months I have now known 4 ppl in florida who still got strep on prophylactic azith and yes I do hear there is a strain like that down here.

 

2. With natural abx you have less likelihood of developing clostridia or other gut bacteria which is common due to high dose abx. That is b/c most of these herbs are very broad spectrum, and do not have antibiotic resistence issues. According to our DAN doctor, he says that many pandas patients get rid of strep but then are left dealing with clostridia due to the abx and the clostridia causes pandas symptoms (in our case, worse than strep-related pandas symptoms - I'm talking complete psychosis). Many of these parents do not know their kid has clostridia (or other bacteria) so then they increase the abx, clostridia gets worse, etc., etc. Vicious cycle.

 

This vicious cycle is why I had to "get out"!!

 

Yeast does not scare me b/c strep and bacteria are so awful, yeast is more drunken, silly, annoying behavior. Plus, it is relatively easy to treat. Many ppl have been PM-ing me and asking about yeast. I am going to copy/paste my response (it's long ):

 

I'm not sure where you are located, but I know of a few great DAN doctors who have great success with PANDAS. Scott Smith, a PA, just relocated from Florida to Edison, NJ. He does phone consults. Also, Dan Rossignol, MD in Florida is who I see (used to see Scott who used to be with rossignol, but when scott left florida, i switched and have been very happy). Rossignol also does phone consults after the initial visit in person. I know phasmid on the forum has had really good success with a DAN doctor recently, too, I want to say Dr. Lin (not sure).

 

Our first DAN doctor, Andrew Levinson in Miami was a waste as well due to not wanting to treat my boy's pandas. He told me to "rely on the tincture of time"...

 

Anyway, you may want to join some autism message boards on yahoo, specifically ones where the moms do the DAN protocol, or similar treatments. I have learned so much about treating yeast, bacteria, etc. Here are a few groups I recommend: MB12Valtrex, ABMD, beyondgfcf.

 

Here is what many ppl do to control yeast. They rotate 3 antifungal products on a 4 day rotation and then start over again. So each product is used for 4 days then switched to the next product and so forth. Here are some products that ppl use and the brands I recommend (if I have used it):

 

Oil of Oregano (Oreganol)

Olive Leaf Extract (New Beginnings, Thorne, Solaray - make sure it is standardized to 20%)

Advanced Biocidin (herbal blend you get online)

Caprylic Acid

Pau D'arco (Gaia, Brainchild nutritionals)

Oregon Grape Root (Thorne)

Grapefruit Seed Extract (not grapeSEED extract; Nutribiotic)

 

In trying to decide which ones to use, you also may want to take into consideration what else you may want to fight. For example, Dr. R says that many of these kids (on this forum) are suffering from clostridia due to all the ghigh dose abx and that the clostridia looks very much like pandas and therefore everyone thinks that they can't get rid of strep, while really the strep is gone but now the kids have clostridia which you can't really get rid of without a specific abx such as vancomycin or flagyl (or some of the above herbs).

 

Also, you may want your antifungal to give your kid an extra boost in terms of strep (in case they come up against an azith resistant strain, etc... So if you also want to target clostridia or strep (both bacteria) you would want to use herbs that also have antibacterial properties. Those would be all of the above, EXCEPT caprylic acid, pau d'arco and oregon grape root.

 

So here is what I am going to be doing. Since I am using OLE for strep and clostridia prevention, I have bacteria covered. So I am going to be using the following for yeast: pau d'arco, oregon grape and ???? haven't decided on the third yet. OLE actually treats yeast but if used long term the yeast will adapt to it and then OLE will actually CREATE yeast. So if used only in a rotation, you are good, but if used all the time you have to use others to control yeast.

 

As far as dosages, it is so hard and individual! It's not an exact science...I use a combination of other's experience, the label (cut the adult dose in half) and my own mother's instinct. Why don't you decide which ones you want to use and then I can give you some guidance on the dose, otherwise I could write a book on dosage of the above herbs!! Plus, some are less tolerable etc. I will say this, I purposely exclude caprylic acid (which stinks b/c it is the best one on the list) b/c the taste is so unbelievably bad that I just can't get either kid to swallow it, which is very rare.

 

Oh, you should know that grapefruit seed extract is VERY potent for yeast, however, it can elevate liver enzymes (you may have heard that grapefruit juice can interfere with various meds, etc...). My 2yo had very mildly elevated LFT after using GSE, so now I use milk thistle to help the liver and I limit the use of GSE (and I have the LFT's redone every few months). His LFT's came back down to the normal range.

 

Here is where I buy most of this stuff: www.ourkidsasd.com and www.iherb.com (free shipping for both above $40 orders - at the first website you have to enter: free at checkout, and at iherb you can enter my personal email address for a $5 discount: stephanieweeks@ymail.com).

 

Hope this helps!!

[dut]

thanks for that stephanie2. I'll be chatting to our ped and integrative drs about it all. :-)

[KeithandElizabeth]

Stephanie:

 

Great information. Thanks!

 

Do you know anything about mesosilver as an antibiotic? Our nutritionist loves it and says that is is very potent. What are your thoughts on this?

 

Elizabeth

[KaraM]

Stephanie,

Thanks for all of the info. How is Clostridia diagnosed?? Is it a clinical diagnosis or do they test somehow?

Kara

 

 

2. With natural abx you have less likelihood of developing clostridia or other gut bacteria which is common due to high dose abx. That is b/c most of these herbs are very broad spectrum, and do not have antibiotic resistence issues. According to our DAN doctor, he says that many pandas patients get rid of strep but then are left dealing with clostridia due to the abx and the clostridia causes pandas symptoms (in our case, worse than strep-related pandas symptoms - I'm talking complete psychosis). Many of these parents do not know their kid has clostridia (or other bacteria) so then they increase the abx, clostridia gets worse, etc., etc. Vicious cycle.