Signs of OCD in a young child

[smartyjones]

there's only either yes or no and neither will suffice.

[thereishope]

-Has to tell you when to stop pouring a drink. The drink needs to be at a certain level

-Messing with seatbelts over and over

-Wear the same clothes over and over

-Change of routine sends them into meltdown

[EAMom]

Yeh, we have the food one.. just went off her previous favorites. She can't tell me why exactly, just says they don't taste good anymore or, more usually, the texture seems funny to her now. Now I think of it, that is one "symptom" that hasn't left us even when all others have. Perhaps it becomes habit/learnt?

 

I think "altered taste sensation" is a separate symptom (more along the lines of sensory integration/defensiveness vs. OCD). This happened to our dd shortly after IVIG as part of "turning back the pages". She said her "taste buds weren't working right"...I asked Diana P. and she said her son had this same symptom for a while when his pandas was bad.

[smartyjones]

• repeating certain words or mantra
  
• use of obscenities(with or out of context). when asked why, children usually state that 'something' is making them say these words
  

i thougth the last one was called something else and not necessarily OCD but dr k.'s website has it listed under OCD of pandas

[peglem]

insisting on certain cup / straw / plate- to the point that it is that or nothing

Oh, yeah, you guys are reminding me of things my daughter does that have become such a normal part of our lives that we don't even realize anymore that is abnormal!

[dut]

EAMom - yeh, you're absolutely right, it is more sensory than OCD but.... some of our dd's symptoms seem to morph between OCD and other "issues". I won't explain this well but here goes how it feels for us...

 

eg the food thing started as fear of certain foods making her vomit, as our epsiodes often start with nausea or vomiting and then the food thing morphs in to the sensory defensiveness. Her clothing thing can feel OCD but also VERY sensory. For our dd it feels as though many, if not all of symptoms except the ticcy ones are all 'cos of a hyped response to thoughts/senses etc. She has always been a super aware outward looking child. Would she have been this way without PANDAS. I feel (but could obviously be so wrong) that she has always had high dopamine making her sometimes painfully aware of external stimuli - giving us an aware child on the good end with an ill child OCD/sensory defensiveness et al on the other end...

 

not that I overthink this at all..... :-) and down blind alleys too :-)

[BriCanady]

Also..

 

nosepicking (compulsively, especially at bedtime for us)

apologising

magical thinking.. if I think it, it will happen... calling brother a furball then worrying that he will become a furball

 

during our 1st noticed episode every safety message we'd ever sent turned into a crippling fear eg never put plastic bags over your head became a terrifying fear of anything plastic touching her face, not wanting to go near plug sockets, worrying that bath water will be too hot.

 

Wow...I didn't know the name for my son's "what if's?"...magical thinking.....touching a green block in the carpet and then saying..."Great, now I have to marry a green person"....You should see the looks I get when I tell people this...

 

how about:

holding spit in the mouth

breathing in before reading each new sentence..

can't cross over numbers when using calculator/computer

can't sit on lines in carpet

[Buster]

This is an amazing thread....

 

The one we got which was really odd was a 7 year old obsessing about

"Are my arms bigger than my sisters?"

"Will this make me gain weight?"

"Does this have sugar in it?"

"Is this fat on my leg?"

"Will this make me weigh more than 50 lbs?"

 

This is a 7 year old with full on Anorexia Nervosa -- full body morphology issues, off the charts OCD where the questions had to be answered to get any relief. We found in her school bag a "Scholastic Newsletter" that had highlighted the sugar content in kid food -- I'm sure for all the right reasons, but I she had clearly been obsessing about this for months.

 

This was really, really scary as she lost 15% of her body weight in 2 weeks -- we finally had to hospitalize her for malnutrition and it was then we found the strep infection and once treated the symptoms remitted. Makes me shudder to just think about it.

 

Buster

[Megs_Mom]

These are all really great examples. I will edit the original post by tonight. I was thinking that I'll change this to a format that lists common obsessions & common compulsions - and then lists our examples below each category. You can let me know if you think that an example is miscategorized. I'll also add the requirements for a "worry" to be OCD versus "normal childhood": Obsessions are: Intrusive (come into your mind without your wanting them), Irrational (concern things that make no sense or go beyond rational), Recurrent (keep replaying), Disturbing, and Anxieity Producing. I find sometimes that with young children, that because they do not always have "insight" that the thought or behaviour is not normal, sometimes they are not Disturbed or Anxious, so long as they can perform their compulsion. Adults know the compulsion (behavior) is odd, and that causes them additional anxiety. Sometimes kids only become anxious if the ritual is interrupted.

 

Categories for Obsessions are: Contamination, Harm to Self or Others, Symmetry Urges (or "Just Right" OCD), Doubting, Numbers, Scrupulosity, Magical thinking, Hoarding, and Sexual Themes. Categories for Compulsions are: Washing & Cleaning, Checking, Symmetry, Counting, Repeating/Redoing, Hoarding, Praying. The tricky thing ins that there are so many ways for the compulsion to manifest, and there is no logic to what compulsion gets attached to the obsession. Usually we see the compulsion in the child - and they may not be able to explain (or want to explain) the obsession behind that ritual. So I'll just put things where they seem to go so that other parents can see our examples.

 

Sometimes certain obsessions do tend to link up with specific rituals a lot of the time. OCDChicago does a good job of illustrating this - they start like this:

Fear of contamination or germs.. . leads to .....Washing/ cleaning

Fear of harm or danger.. . leads to ......Checking

Fear of losing somet hing valuable . . leads to ......Hoarding

Fear of violating religious rules . . . . . leads to .....Preoccupation with religious observances

Need for symmetry . . leads to .....“Evening up” or arranging

Need for perfection . . leads to ......Seeking reassurance or doing things “just right”

 

I do have a few questions on your examples, so I'll add those here:

 

SmartyJones - what do you mean by there is "only yes or no and neither will suffice". I am guessing that you mean that the world becomes very black & white (yes or no, never maybe). But because it is not really black & white, the child becomes incredibly frustrated by simple answers that either they need to give, or they need to get from you. Sometimes the frustration may be because they feel that they are lying and so cannot answer a simple question. Or they want an answer from you - and if you say yes, they can think of 100 reasons that you could be wrong & if you say no, they can also think why that would be wrong - so no matter what you answer, there are other possibilities, and they need 100% certainty. I usually think of this as falling under "doubting", need for perfection, or scrupulosity.

 

BriCanady - yours gave me shivers - brought back some bad memories. What do you mean by "can't cross over numbers when using calculator/computer"?

 

On all the food questions - I guess there is always a question with children that have PANDAS as to whether a symptom is sensory vs. OCD. And perhaps the sensory feeds the OCD in many cases - we often found that to be true. In our case, our daughter would say that she "just did not like" a food anymore - but as she has gotten better, she is able to tell us that the food actually was scaring her - she thought it would make her ill - either from a spot or too much sugar, or whatever. It has still made her nervous to try the food again - but she is very excited to add them back. During the episode, she just did not want to have to argue about it - but she always seemed so sad that she did not like her favorite things anymore. For us, it was OCD related to a fear of contamination or illness.

 

Bronxmom - can you elaborate? Do you mean that violent images come into his mind (intrusive thoughts) that he cannot get rid of? Thoughts of harm to self or to others?

[Megs_Mom]

• repeating certain words or mantra
  
• use of obscenities(with or out of context). when asked why, children usually state that 'something' is making them say these words
  

i thougth the last one was called something else and not necessarily OCD but dr k.'s website has it listed under OCD of pandas

 

Hi - Usually the "need to say a bad word" is categorized under the "tic side of PANDAS" - often called Coprolalia. Do you think it is that or am I missing this example a little? I agree with need to repeat certain words or mantras - almost like a prayer? I'll add that one. And then let me know how to better understand the use of obscenities (maybe the same thing?) and I'll think about where to put this.

[Megs_Mom]

Meg, is refusal to brush teeth or shower or change clothes from OCD?

 

What about constant talk of death, sticking fingers down their throat until they gag, pulling out hair, upset that you can't stop blinking or breathing and trying to stop. These are somethings dd8 did as a young child when I believe she first got PANDAS and I don't know where they fall into the OCD categories.

 

Also, what about asking permission? My dd even now asks permission to close her eyes to go to sleep. She can't fall asleep unless I tell her it's OK to close her eyes and she asks permission to do things like go to the bathroom, things that she should be able to just run and do at home.

 

Super great thread idea, thank you!

 

Hi Suzan - yes, refusal to brush teeth or shower or change clothes - absolutely can be compusions. They usually have some obsession behind them, but you are likely on track. Could be for so many reasons - only those clothes are "safe", all others are contaminatied. Or if she showers, something bad will happen. Or if she showers, she'll wash off something that is "just right". It's hard to see the compulsion and know what the obsession absolutely is. But really, seeing the compulsion is often enough.

 

These examples - upset can't stop blinking or breathing - yes can be a compulsion.

Pulling out hair - do you mean Trichotillomania? Or something else?

Talk of death - as in she is worried this will happen to her or someone else? likely caused by something she does or does not do? If so, then yep.

Asking permission - yes, this is a horrible one - that sounds pretty severe. That would fall under doubting, most likely.

 

I have no clue about sticking fingers down throat until they gag - that one is a mystery!

[Suzan]

Hi Suzan - yes, refusal to brush teeth or shower or change clothes - absolutely can be compusions. They usually have some obsession behind them, but you are likely on track. Could be for so many reasons - only those clothes are "safe", all others are contaminatied. Or if she showers, something bad will happen. Or if she showers, she'll wash off something that is "just right". It's hard to see the compulsion and know what the obsession absolutely is. But really, seeing the compulsion is often enough.

 

These examples - upset can't stop blinking or breathing - yes can be a compulsion.

Pulling out hair - do you mean Trichotillomania? Or something else?

Talk of death - as in she is worried this will happen to her or someone else? likely caused by something she does or does not do? If so, then yep.

Asking permission - yes, this is a horrible one - that sounds pretty severe. That would fall under doubting, most likely.

 

I have no clue about sticking fingers down throat until they gag - that one is a mystery!

 

The gagging thing and hair pulling thing would be accompanied by manic laughing. I always assumed it was some creepy sensory thing after I learned about SPD. She would grap her hair and try to pull fists out and laugh like she was crazy.

 

Talk of death, this took many forms. They'd worry I'd die, worry they would die, talk about all the ways you could die, how long does it take to die if you die in a car wreck, from old age, etc. Where is this or that person burried, why did they get burried instead of cremated, how long does it take for your body to become bones, what happens to your blood after you die. Some of the questions will be with crying and upset and others were just normal conversation tone.

 

Susan

[thereishope]

Just a bit of info that I found interesting. The first psychologist we saw (then stopped seeing rather quickly), said that the number 4 seems to be the most "popular" number that people with OCD is obsessed with. That was my son's number.

 

He would fill up an entire piece of paper just writing "4" over and over until there was no room left. Open the fridge and can't pick something out until he counted to "4". Had to say good night 4 times. The list goes on.

 

BriCanady - yours gave me shivers - brought back some bad memories. What do you mean by "can't cross over numbers when using calculator/computer"?

[T_Mom]

Great thread--just too bad we can all relate to it from our child's experience!

 

I would add: It is often "normal" behavior carried to an extreme.

 

Obsessive confessing (in stated or written form) often for no apparent reason, and Explaining...explaining, and explaining.

 

Last two days our youngest, " I didn't mean it like that, what I meant was...and do you understand? do you understand, no, no, no, you don't understand MAMA!...I didn't mean it like that, Papa do you see? I meant it like THAT...PAPA, I want you to understand, but Mama, did you hear me, I wanted to do it like that, not THAT--" All punctuated by the periodic scream--this may appear to be normal of course in young children, but to this constant extreme it is perseveration on ideas and/or actions...(and driving us nuts too!

 

All of the OCD behaviors may often be considered "normal" (except for that opening the doors with her feet thing our d sometimes did:) but it is the severity and frequency that sets it apart...

 

I'd stay away from "quantifying" any examples, ie., don't set a number for what is "too much" (20+) but rather refer to the intensity and frequency of the behavior as being extreme for that individual child.

The only reason I say that is when our d had anorexia (Ps induced at age 9) we were told more than once that since she did not have the "fear of choking" that is referenced on Ps websites than it was not Ps type anorexia --It took us off track for a while, until the Ps *&%$ broke loose--We have to be careful to leave the OCD/tic symptom door wide open in a sense and to look at symptom history and reaction to treatment, I think

[harmony]

Hi all - could we have one place to put some of the signs and symptoms of OCD - since these can be easy to miss in a very young child? I'd love to have one post with just that topic, that I can reference parents to when they ask. I'll start the ball rolling (I likely have more, as we have been through it, but here are a few without looking back at my notes. I am just making a quick list - but if you want me to elaborate on the obsession/compulsion on these, I can add on. Many of these, taken alone, could be a different anxiety - but at least this could start the conversation?

 

* obsessive handwashing, due to fear of germs or stickiness or chemicals

* obsessive need to pee

* obsessively sure that all pee or poop is not out, or that they are not clean - often leading to a compulsion of obsessive wiping.

* need to confess "bad things" such as unkind behavior to another child

* feeling that they have cheated on tests or in school

* constantly asking for reassurance on the same/similar topic (ex: am I sick, will I get sick, did I do that)

* inability to make a previously simple decision for fear of consequences (sometimes logical, sometimes just a fear of it being a wrong decision).

* fear of germ or chemicals

* worry of choking on food - asking for food to be cut into small pieces

* inability to touch certain things, such as food, clothing or toys that were previously loved.

* repetitively touching certain things.

* brushing teeth for a long period of time

* inability to eat certain foods previously liked.

* worry about being "bad"

* repetitively saying certain things, or asking others to say things in specific ways, tones, etc.

* lining up things such as toys or pencils.

* repeating sounds others make, especially a cough or a sneeze

* spitting germs

* inability to put hands in certain positions

* retracing steps

* going in and back out of doorways

* turning light switches on and off

* worrying about on of their actions causing harm to another

* hoarding odd things such as tissue, paper, empty juice boxes

* inability to seperate from a parent or authority figure

* concern about weather or robbers - accompanied by a ritual such as a repetitive thoughts or magical thought

* obsessive magical thinking

* obsessive concern about throwing up

* avoidance of certain places or people or things previously enjoyed, such as restaurants, birthday parties

* inability to touch other children when playing age appropriate games.

* counting toys

* insistence on a certain order of events (such as reading certain books in only a certain order)

* checking doors to make sure they are locked

* putting together sets of items

* constantly changing mind- fear of wrong decision

* Fixation on a certain number - such as needing to do, repeat, touch something 7 times.

* Fixation on a certain number as being bad - such as being unable to read anything with the number 7 on it (such as page 7, the 7th sentance, etc.

* needing a parent to say certain things an amount of times before a task is complete

* Perfectionism - often seen in erasing work until the paper rips

I like your list, what a great idea!

I like some of the terms that were used in this list like ; fixation, insistence, inability and need.

I also liked the the post (sorry, I cant remember who posted it and cant find it again), that mentioned the possible link between OCD and Tics for the sneezing girl. Dr. Swedo talked about this in the MIND institute conference. I also believe that some of my sons tics were first caused by OCD and vice-versa.

 

Obsessive Compulsive Tendencies are very common and normal in children. It becomes a disorder when it interferes with their life.

I hear people say all the time, "I am obsessed with......." or "I like to have things organized, because I am so OCD"

I think the term "OCD" is used all the time in the wrong content. There is definitely a line between tendencies and a disorder.-I have also heard people say, "Ya, my son has OCD, he likes to line up his toys." Notice the words "likes to" instead of "HAS to"- Counting toys can be very Innocent, but if a toy becomes of of place and results in anxiety attacks and rages- sometimes lasting for HOURS, or the toys become "tainted" and can no longer be played with- those are just some examples of how it can become a disorder.

These are some examples of my son OCD

Excessive wiping

Refusing to change clothes (for months at time)

Fears that I (mom) was going to die- would keep him up all night crying

Fears that a monster was going to get him, if alone, in our bathrooms at home or a public restroom- would rather pee/poop in pants (at stores, friends house, school) than to say outloud that he had to go to the bathroom- or to go by himself ( I guess monsters would hear him if he said it out loud

Favorite color- had to wear the same Red PJs everyday, only color with red crayon (if the crayon would break it would result in crying for SEVERAL hours- only that particular red crayon would do) only swing on red swing (if someone was on it- he would have anxiety and once attacked the child)

 

There are plenty more