Chemar, Husband has a question for you

[Cum Passus]

Chemar,

 

My husband is wondering if you could answer this question? Our son was sick with a cold this past weekend he didn't make all the vocals while his body was not feeling well. When we told his Dr. he was suprised he said most kids he sees tic worse when they are sick. His question is about the dopamine does the body do some thing to the dopamine when your sick? It was really strange how he didn't tic at all, I only heard him once on Sunday, and I let him watch football all day. Thanks

C.P. & S.P.

[Chemar]

hi CP and SP

 

i honestly dont know about illness and dopamine but will ask mrsD who is really knowledgable about such things

 

I do agree tho that it is very unusual for tics to subside with illness as usually the exact opposite happens....people tic WAY MORE when they are ill or have infection, fever etc

 

so this really is a very interesting observation.

 

hope he is feeling better

[Cum Passus]

Chemar,

 

Thank you for checking further into this. This is the third time this has happened. His tics have come back, now that he his getting better.

C.P.

[Sunshine]

My son's tics disappeared last June when he had a fever. However, they resurfaced afterward worse than before. He has not had a fever since then.

 

Sunshine

[mrsdoubtfyre]

Chemar asked me to come here and view this thread.

 

When people fall ill, the body goes into an inflammatory mode, and makes inflammatory cytokines.

 

These then signal the white cells to clean up invaders.

 

Inflammatory cytokines can affect blood flow to the brain. I found some interesting PET scans

in the past while researching allergies/ADHD. It is thought that constricting blood vessels, alter

the blood flow to certain areas of the brain, and this could lead to altered behaviors. This is the

theory for allergic triggers for ADHD and Autism. I think it would work for TS as well.

 

Years ago when my mother was still alive she was having multi-infarcts (small strokes) from her

rheumatic heart issue. After several episodes of these she started with coprolalia big time, and it was

very TS like.

 

Here is the website. While it focuses on Autism, I think the perfusion information is interesting and

could be extrapolated to many other behavioral issues.

 

http://nids.net/pdf/slides2.pdf

[Chemar]

thanks so much for looking at this mrsD:)

 

So, it is interesting then, CP (and Sunshine) on how you have noticed the opposite to the "rule" on this!

 

once again reinforces my belief that individuals, even with the same illnesses,dosorders, diseases, can have such very different responses to things based on their own unique biochemistry.

 

there must be something triggered in the illness mode for your son CP and in fever for yours Sunshine, that switches off the mechanisms that usually cause tics, whether the dopaminergic pathways or something else

 

i will certainly be looking in to this as well, to see if I can find any additional info for you

[kim]

mrsdoubtfyre/Chemar/Cum Passus /Sunshine,

 

 

I would like to add, that this is something I have noticed too, with both boys. Even though their TS assoc. symptoms are very different.

 

Certain illnesses, the type where they are flat out in bed=no tics. It is after they are back on their feet, that I might notice and increase in tics.

 

The type of immune response that you referred to Mrs. D.....

 

When people fall ill, the body goes into an inflammatory mode, and makes inflammatory cytokines.

 

These then signal the white cells to clean up invaders.

 

would be a TH2 response, I believe. Now this is the part I would like your opinion, and clarification, if you have a better understanding of this issue (mine is pretty basic).

 

In a normally functioning immune system, you have a TH1 response first. This is the arm of the immune system which seeks and destroys invading pathogens, maybe a fever, would be more likely to be present during this phase?

 

Then the part that you referred to, the TH2, steps in and cleans up. TH2 involves the inflammatory response. In an allergic situation, TH1, may be bypassed altogether, and you are dealing with only a TH2 response.

 

I'm wondering if it's possible, that the "tic free" phase of an illness, could be during the TH1 phase, and as the body swithches to the second phase, (Th2) may be where we would note, an increasein tic activity.

 

When something like poison ivy, pollens, herpes viruses, etc. are involved, I have noticed an increase in tics, at onset, during and after.

 

I started a thread a while back on TH1 and TH2. I'm going to bump it, in case you have any thoughts on it

 

Kim

[Chemar]

interesting Kim

 

my son has a complete tic upsurge before, during and after illness (with or without fever), tooth issues etc

 

It would be interesting I think to maybe do a poll to see what % of members see tic increase with illness and how many see the decrease

 

 

(ps as I have mentioned before, and it is still the case, although I know it sounds weird, the only other consistent tic surges my son gets, apart form illness/ teeth issues, is at full moon. )

[Cum Passus]

Thank you Mrs.D, Chemar & kim

 

Mrs.D talked about blood flow to the brain. Last winter I was talking to my Dad about my son ticcing worse when the weather is really cold. My dad had a heart attack a few years ago and said the cold bothers him, makes his chest hurt. He was thinking the blood flow was slowed in the cold. Could this be the reason why grape seed extract helps? (I was thinking blood thinner idea.) Same idea with the clonidine?

 

Thanks everybody, My husband is just fascinated watching our son while he is sick trying to figure out what happened. C.P.

[mrsdoubtfyre]

I think there are other issues too, besides immune ones.

 

I was reading a book the other day, called Beyond Prozac. The author by Michael Norden MD.

(I was seeking info on light therapy for SAD).

 

Anyway it reminded me about Histamine and its role in brain as a neurotransmitter.

 

In Beyond Prozac Dr. Norden states that inositol is a precursor or enabler of the release of

serotonin. That is why inositol works for depression/anxiety and OCD.

 

So I looked it up:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...255/ai_n6211958

Depressive patients generally have decreased levels of inositol in their cerebrospinal fluid. (3) Researchers now theorize that inositol produces positive clinical results in patients with depression due to intracellular phosphatidyl inositol serving as a second messenger for 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-H[T.sub.2]) receptor signaling mechanisms. Serotonin selective reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), a family of drugs commonly used to treat depression, have a similar therapeutic profile to inositol in that they inhibit serotonin reuptake in the synaptic cleft. (10)

 

This brings me back to Histamine. A long time ago I searched histamine in the brain.

Here is a paper explaining the relationship to the mu-receptor for opiates.

http://www.uclm.es/inabis2000/symposia/pdf/s039.pdf

 

This subject is huge, and the immune one is also. And very hard to understand. But I think in essence

that histamine is an enabling neurotransmitter...like inositol. This would explain the increase in histamine during illness/stress, and also the variable responses TS patients have to antihistamines. (some are very lipophilic and enter the brain, and others like Claritin do not).

 

The brain, and its nutrition and blood supply are all very interconnected. New research on Zonulin is bringing understanding to the blood brain barrier, as well. People with open Zonulin channels, allow substances in that others do not. Zonulin is big right now, in research for the celiac community. There is a drug in trials to close the channels. We could digress for hours on this subject alone!