supplements

[deagar]

I am extremely busy at this time and don't have time to search through threads for some answers so I hope you don't mind me bringing up some "old" questions that someone else has probably already discussed. My sons tics were almost non-existance last may and then they came back again and we are having a hard time getting them to a good level now. We just started him on the mag/cal/zinc and taurine supplements a couple weeks ago. At first there was no change and then after about a week or so, things got a lot better. Unfortunately, this only lasted a couple days. I thought the supplements did the trick to help my son but then when things got worse again, I tried to figure out why. One possibility is when my son was away with my husband for the weekend, I think he may have gotten double the taurine dose for 2-3 days. Instead of 500mg, he may have gotten 1000. Could this have caused an increase in his tics? Since I wasn't sure if this happened or not, I stopped the taurine for about a week and just began it again last night. We just got back from Florida after a 5 day trip and my sons neck strains were really bad and constant where he was really complaining....so I was wondering if it was the change in weather? They were slowly increasing before the trip and really hit a high level while on the trip. Anyways, we are back home in Wisconsin now and the temp is about 60 and I am curious to know how today will go. Can tics get worse with supplements before they get better? I thought that was the case with naturopath/homeopath routes but couldn't remember if it pertained to supplements also. If I don't see an improvement in a month, should these supplements be continued? The pills are so large and he is getting sick of me smashing them and mixing them with yogurt everynight and if things don't get better, I dont know if it is worth the hassle.

Any advice? Thanks - Deanna

[quan_daniel]

Deagar,

Besides supplement my son also does enzyme with food since he has problem with breaking down Gluten and casein. If he eats offending food without it he definitely tics(wax). Food coloring is another thing which enzyme can not help. So no matter how much supplement you take, but without proper diet one can still get tics.

 

Daniel

[Chemar]

Deanna

that much taurine could well have thrown things out of whack

 

I must say I wouldnt just have stopped it total like that but would rather have continued with the regular dose

 

are you doing any other supplements? or just the mag/cal/zinc/taurine?

 

I strongly believe that the combination of all the needed supps is what helps them to work optimally, and that issues like candida & other parasites, metals,pyroluria, allergies etc etc can damp down the benefits

 

and

yes, a trip to a different climate/food etc and just the excitement of the trip alone could elevate tics

 

as Daniel says....all the supps arent going to benefit fully if diet and underlying issues arent addressed too

[deagar]

Currently, those are the only supplements that we are using. I had done some other testing like pyroluria (neg.), IgG delayed food sensitivity (on diet for 2 months with no tic decrease), checked for strep with culture and ASO & DNASE B (neg). So I have been checking other possible issues with no success. Our pediatrician has ran a number of blood tests, the ones the HMO would authorize, and found he doesn't have Celiac Disease, is low on zinc and a number of other things were normal. He does have a few allergies and is being treated with zyrtec and nasonex. I even tried a naturopath/homeopath regime for 3 months with no luck. I am trying to find an alternative doc that can actually help me work through this without me teaching them. Although I like our pediatric neurologist, he said at our last appt. that I know a lot more than a lot of the doctors themselves. A nice compliment but not to comforting. I will keep plugging away. Thanks! Deanna

[orthomolecular]

If your son is getting neck strain or muscle pain in his neck I think this may be from low serotonin levels. I have a severe b6 deficiency and can have these knots or kinks in my neck and shoulders. Is that what your son might be experiencing? Low serotonin levels can cause pain or muscle tension problems. Vitamin b6 is useful for this but niacin is critical too.

 

Vitamin b6 is also important for tics. If your son is taking zinc because he is low in zinc, you should also supplement vitamin b6 with the zinc. These two nutrients work well together. But vitamin b6 is critical for proteins to be broken down into amino acids.

 

I use orthomolecular to treat my severe nutritional deficiencies (pyroluria and low histamine levels). I know how you feel when you seem to know more than your doctor does about the symptoms of some deficiencies. I would suggest when you do have the time to research on the web you look for sites that mention the orthomolecular approach because that infomration can be helpful. I wish I could tell you how to find a doctor in your area with training in orthomolecular but this can be difficult. But the Huxley Instistute might have some names for you, although I think some of the doctors on their list are really just nutritionally oriented doctors, not true ortho pactioners.

 

The allergies would indicate an imbalance of your son's histamine levels. It's not for me to say if they are high or low, but a simple blood test can tell you this. This test can be performed by your regular doctor. (This might be something you can look into when you have figured out his problem now.) Ortho uses nutritional supplements to treat the allergies, whatever type, environmental, food or seasonal. The allergies or histamine inbalances would need to be addressed if you want the supplements to work. The supplements can work if you get the whole thing right, but if you are missing one element then you can have these new symptoms appear.

 

The quesiton you asked about it getting worse before it gets better, I find that this can happen for me if I am missing something. When you start supplementing some nutrients new symptoms or new issues seem to surface. This can help you figure out what is missing (specific nutrients), though it isn't always that easy. It requires lots and lots of research to figure out what nutrient may be the "missing link."

 

I agree with the other poster about the digstive enzymes. Enzymes are like a first cousin to nutritional supplements. I realized because of my severe deficiencies my pancreas was not able to produce the proteolytic enzymes that are important. These enzymes especially, proteolytic, can help with the allergic reaction, which is most often a histamine response or some form of imflammation. I think you might research this issue further somewhere down the road. They can test blood levels for elevated amylase and lipase levels to see if the pancreas is functioning properly.

 

Good luck in finding a qualified doctor to help you with this.

[deagar]

Is there a test to see if his serotonin level is low? How about a histamine test to see if he is high or low?

[Claire]

There is a histamine test. Pfeiffer had labcorp do one for us. However, I don't know which one it was...when I had it redone on my own, I ordered the wrong test (through directlabs) and wasted $150. It is the only test that I couldn't track, sorry.

 

Claire

[jacobsmom]

My son is on a lot of suppliments as well. He is having a difficult time swallowing all those pills. Can ALL suppliments be smashed up and put into yogurt? Are there any suppliments that you have heard of where that would not be safe? Is there anyone who has any other suggestions than yogurt, my son doesn't like yogurt at all. Thanks.

Amy

[Chemar]

Deanna

I think Giselle has info on neurotransmitter tests for serotonin

 

 

Amy

have you tried letting him drink water/juice etc liquid through a straw while swallowing the pills?

many people find that helps them to get them in

[orthomolecular]

I have read that the 24 hour urine collection is the best for neurotransmitters. I think your doctor would do all neurotransmitters not just serotonin. I think this test would be done by a holistic doctor and not likely to be done by your HMO doc.

 

The histamine test can be done by any doctor. A test of a blood sample will show histamine levels. This is a basic test. I believe there is a more complicated one that shows other substances besides histamine, but I don't think you don't really need that one.

 

One simple thing you can try is to get some nicotinic acid in 50 mg. Nicotinic acid is the form of niacin that causes the flushing. (Always look for a warning on the bottle for this flush to make sure you have the right form.) If 50 mg. of niacin causes a flush then that person has high histamine levels. If you don't flush from just 50 mg. you might want to try that test again with TWO 50 mg. capsules, just to make sure. But even the 100 mg. dose of niacin may not cause a flush in a low histamine person. Low histamine types can require about 250 mg. of niacin to have that flush.

 

This test does help, but you do have to wait at least 3 or 4 hours to try testing with a higher dose. I have read in William Walsh's notes, I think, that some people may feel better when their histamine levels are balanced but may not see any change in their blood tests results.

[deagar]

What is "flushing"? I am unfamilar with this.

[orthomolecular]

Flushing is what happens when you take nicotinic acid. Parts of your skin, your face, your hands, your elbows, your neck, etc, get red and irritated and feel warm. Flushing is somewhat like an allergic reaction because it is a sharp increase in histamine levels. Some people find annoying, but other people get used to it. It may only last for about a half hour or so.

[Claire]

Ortho...

 

Very interesting, thanks!

 

I tested undermethylated (slightly high histamines levels). I do flush at 50 mg niacin, so I switched to 25 mg a day. I never knew there was a correlation!! That means my husband is undermethylated too...our whole family is...

 

Claire

[orthomolecular]

If you have high histamine levels then you should take niacinamide and NOT nicotinic acid. Folic acid will also raise histamine levels too. You should avoid those two supplements absolutely. B12 is another possibility for raising histamine levels but not so obvious.

 

But taking the other forms of niacin is important and not just in 25 mg. But avoid nicotinic acid and folic acid. I have read that folic acid will become trapped because the body isn't methylating properly.

 

I had low histamine levels which are now balanced. I can flush now from only 100 mg. of nicotinic acid and find that I don't tolerate the flush as well as I used to. So, your histamine levels can change and at some point you will flush at a different dose of nicotinic acid.

 

And, I think I read in some notes by William Walsh that even though you feel better and think your histamine levels have improved a blood test may not show that change for some reason. But the flushing is a reliable way to know if your histamine levels have changed.

 

I think it can take as much as 250 mg. of nicotinic acid to cause a flush in a low histamine type. But if it only takes that 50 mg. dose to cause a flush then that indicates high histamine levels.

[Claire]

Ortho,

 

I talked to the Pfeiffer doctor about this conflict with folic acid and high histamines. They said it wasn't so strict as it sounded....the body needs some, but you must be careful. Nothing is absolute, but I posted this same concern you raise now in a methylation thread a while ago, it is quite complicated as you indicate.

 

Anyway, both my son and I had high histamines, yet both were deficient in folic acid and had to supplement anyway. A recent test showed that I am deficient yet again, so I had to increase it again.

 

I do take niacinamide, but I take 25 mg of niacin also because I need to manage my cholesterol. The Pfeiffer doctor was okay with 25 mg.

 

Not that any doctor is all-knowing, my comments are just that since Pfeiffer/Walsh was big on raising the concern of folic acid and niacin consumption being containdicated with high histamine, I trusted their guidance on this for my son and me. Everyone needs to hear their doctors input and come to their own conclusions. In fact, I strongly disagreed with Pfeiffer on the high B6 and zinc they wanted us to take. We totally cleared my son's pyroluria with 25 mg B6 and 25 mg P5P and they wanted 300+ mg B6 and 50 P5P. In general, I am for the minimum amount that works for someone...so for zinc we did have to up it from the 25 mg I wanted.

 

Claire