Reward-based learning

[bronxmom2]

Hi all,

After PEX and 6 high dose IVIGs and over two years on antibiotics, my son is doing OK. Not perfect, but OK.

 

He seems to have one big problem from which all his other remaining problems stem: he does not learn from experience.

Negative experience (getting yelled at, rejected by friends, kicked out of class) does not teach him to avoid making the same mistake again next time and positive experience (being kind and getting praised)does not lead him to repeat.

 

I believe it all boils down to dopamine. His dopamine-based learning system doesn't work. The chemicals that are supposed to teach him by flooding his brain are haywire somehow.

 

Has anyone ever found a supplement that can either suppress, stimulate, or simulate dopamine OR found a therapy that can help kids LEARN the stuff their brain chemicals are supposed to teach them naturally?

 

He's like a kid who keeps sticking his hand in a fire because he can't feel any pain. Still gets injured, still gets burned but he can't remember to stop doing it.

[kimballot]

Hi - I am wondering how old your son is and how long ago he started the PEX and IVIG. My ds 14 had one HD IVIG about 7 weeks ago. Tics and obvious OCD are gone, but now we are left with depression and impulsivity. I don't know if it will decrease or not. Just had a big team meeting with all of the supports I put in place. I really think this is brain chemicals readjusting... We are scheduled for another HDIVIG in a couple of weeks as he is also immune deficient. I am trying to anticipate what I might see afterward...

Edited April 8, 2011 by kimballot

[bronxmom2]

Hey, my son's younger, he is 8. He's been getting IVIG regularly for almost a year and a half. I am doing one more next week (at 2gm/kg) and then I am just going to wait and see what happens. He is also depressed and impulsive. However the REALLY terrible problems we had, when he was totally out of control and couldn't be with other kids or be stimulated at all without going bananas, have subsided. He is OK. I was hoping for more recovery though. Maybe with time...

[mkur]

Is he really not learning or is he very impulsive. My son was very hyper and impulsive and would not slow down to think. Tenex worked for my son when he was younger.

[EAMom]

Is he really not learning or is he very impulsive. My son was very hyper and impulsive and would not slow down to think. Tenex worked for my son when he was younger.

 

Hey

Bronxmom2,

 

here are my totally random thoughts.

 

I wonder if your son has low serotonin. Low serotonin has been linked with impulsivity in both human and animal studies.

 

Does advil help?

 

I would also get his vitamin d levels checked...I checked my pandas dd's recently and they were borderline low (we're in N. CA). I would think you'd be even more prone to low D in NY.

 

You might also be interested in this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077351/

[Guest pandas16]

When you say reward based learning- which types of rewards are you giving him? I'm a teacher so I am familiar with this type approach. Stickers can really be helpful even in high school. You could also try a rotational approach where you do specific subjects for 15 minutes, give a reward (like a sticker) and then change subject for another 15 minutes. I used to make sticker books for myself. I also used to reward myself with a song. Before starting homework I would make a list of 7 songs that I wanted to listen to, after successfully finishing each subject my reward would be the song, or playing piano etc.

I struggled with the same mistakes socially at 9 and it didn't have much to do with "learning." It had more to do with OCD and not being able to let go of the mistake or wanting to repeat it to see if the same consequence would happen.

Edited April 12, 2011 by pandas16

[EAMom]

Pandas16 brings up a good point, that it is important to find the right reward. I learned that in dog-training. Modern dog trainers don't expect dogs to respond/do stuff just for praise (that's old school thinking, that a dog should do stuff because he just naturally should want to please you and praise should be good enough). Modern positive based dog trainers have no problem looking for rewards that really matter (to the dog)...usually that's food and really tasty human food at that (cheese bits, hotdog bits). Of course I'm not saying that you should give your son bits of cheese or hot dog, but...maybe he needs something more than praise for his positive reinforcements? Of course praise is good too, but maybe he needs something on top of that.

Edited April 12, 2011 by EAMom

[fuelforall]

[seratonin levels are evened out taking ZIJA. Results may vary based on dosage.

zijapower.com

 

Check it out, try it a month, see what you think.

It tastes good to most kids.

 

 

Michael

[norcalmom]

Hi Bornxmom,

I feel the same way about my son sometimes...I had the discussion with him just last night. It like he has no awareness that I am about to loose it and punish him...and that the same thing happened two days ago. Even though he's be warned, threatened, counted down, and yelled at. I was describing it to my firend while dog walking a couple hours ago - and she said - you should have him rate you. Say "DS...where am I at - am I a 3 - slightly annoyed - or a 9 - about to blow a gasket and ground you?" I haven't tried it yet - but I'm going to because its like he is not AWARE during those times, I'd like to see if he could learn to tune into to signals that something bad is about to happen if he doesn't change his behavior.

 

I've been letting him slide too much because I know he can't help his behavior, he doens't have the tools get himself under control. But, I need to do something to make him more accountable. Hard to tell where the "soft" parenting stops and the pandas begins.

 

I'm thinking of reverting back to something we did prior to pandas that seemed to work well. When DS was misbehaving alot we "Put him on Privileges".

 

We took away all the things that we considered privileges. TV, video games, computer time, play dates. ...And he had the opportunity to earn those back with good behavior. WE were trying incent specific behavior (and I think this works best with specific targeted stuff - a short list) so for example, eating his dinner without complaint and clearing his plate. (he was in first grade...and would pout and complain and refuse to eat often, making meals difficult for the whole family)...so if he was polite and behaved himself he would get 30 minutes of a privilege.

 

Typically he would "go on privileges" for two weeks. I think we started by using tickets..each tick was for 15 minutes, and we had 3 ways he could earn them. A thumbs up from his teacher (who I had to check in with every day) got him 2 or 3 tickets. Meal times - one ticket - homework- when I asked- without complaint, another ticket.

 

After 2 weeks, the good behavior became the norm -for a while anyway!

 

It works well with getting them to do something. I don't know how it would work with getting them to stop doing something...which is now more of our issue. I think your son is older? I would think an older kids 10-16) could handle a longer list. Let me know if you try it an how it works for you! The first few days are hard...but like I said ...it worked for several weeks/months for DS so the payoff was worth it.

[MomWithOCDSon]

I know many folks here have referenced this book in the past, but I just recently delved into "The Explosive Child," and it deals with learning and the ineffectiveness of reward and/or privilege removal strategies for some kids.

 

In short, the author says: Kids want to do well. Developmental differences can interfere with a kid's ability to "do well" in the context of other kids his age. These developmental differences can cause a kid to get more easily frustrated and "explode" or otherwise "opt out" because he literally cannot process the experience the way you expect him to, so external reward systems have a tendency not to work; he cannot, in his mind, draw a logical line between enacting the desired behavior and gaining the reward. Or the reward itself holds no "luster" for him. Getting through a challenging situation/episode without losing it can be reward enough.

 

While I don't see this sort of "developmental difference" in our DS all the time, I'm seeing it in this latest exacerbation. It's bizarre how much his processing has literally eroded over the last few weeks, and where rewards worked beautifully two months ago, they net us zip today.