Band 41 - Bacteria with Flagella

[LNN]

I know that on the Western Blot (and Igenex) Band 41 indicates an antibody response to a bacteria that has a flagella - a tail, like a sperm. Borreliosis has a tail, as does H Pylori (the bacteria that causes ulcers). But I'm having trouble finding a list of other bacteria that might show up as a positive 41 band. Anyone have any info or google search ideas?

[MichaelTampa]

Other suggestions, things I have heard, are syphilis, mycoplasma, and "dental spirochetes". I don't really know what's accurate.

[philamom]

I think Giardia does.

[P_Mom]

Strep Throat is in Group A. These bacteria can also cause meningitis, pneumonia, and "flesh eating" bacterial infections. The bacteria are not like viruses. Instead of injecting genetic material into the cell, the bacteria live without a host cell. They will form a long string and sit on the back of the throat or mouth. This is what forms the white blotches or spots seen when a person has Strep Throat.

 

Streptococcus is a spherical-shaped bacterium that forms small chains. The word -coccus is Latin for circle or sphere. Bacteria can come in many shapes, like spiral or rod shaped. This distinguishes bacteria from one another. Streptococcus also has pili, which are used to exchange genetic material. Streptococcus is a prokaryote, which means it has no nucleus. Yet, this bacteria has DNA and ribosomes. Streptococcus contains a flagellum, allowing the bacteria to move.

[PacificMama]

LLM,

 

I always see Band 41 explained as the flagella of specifically a spirochetal bacterial -- and the only three spirochetal bacteria that are ever listed are borrelia; syphilis; and dental spirochetes.

 

Band 41 is specific enough to be included by the CDC and Igenex, but is not one the bands that is considered specific to only borrelia.

 

I see people have posted other possibilities, but I do think it is identified with spirochetes only. As to strep, Dr. T (pandas doc) stated on this forum some time back that "It is NOT found in streptococci or mycoplasma, so infection with those can't be confounding this result." He too was hypothesizing as he was seeing a lot of band 41.

 

Many (most?) lyme docs would not consider a positive on band 41 alone to be a positive for borrelia. But again, it would be evidence to be considered along with symptoms / history when making a diagnosis.

[LNN]

I see people have posted other possibilities, but I do think it is identified with spirochetes only. As to strep, Dr. T (pandas doc) stated on this forum some time back that "It is NOT found in streptococci or mycoplasma, so infection with those can't be confounding this result." He too was hypothesizing as he was seeing a lot of band 41.

 

Many (most?) lyme docs would not consider a positive on band 41 alone to be a positive for borrelia. But again, it would be evidence to be considered along with symptoms / history when making a diagnosis.

Thanks. This helps me narrow my googling. DD is not overly "lymey" in her results so far and the LLMD has been reluctant to treat based on test results and clinical thus far. But other things (yeast, h Pylori, myco, parasites) have been negative as was Bartonella. The one result that keeps getting more ++ every time we test is 41. Her issues are mostly GI and neuropsych. For two years, we've just kept this on the radar. Nothing severe enough to pursue. But lately, things are escalating and it's like watching the little bubbles form on the bottom of a pot of water just before it starts to boil.

 

So I was going to use my anxiety-driven insomnia to see if other things could be worth investigating.

Edited January 13, 2011 by LLM

[PacificMama]

OK... I just wanted to post again because I wonder if I gave an incorrect impression. A person can certainly have lyme, and show up with only Band 41 positive. I more meant to say that Band 41 is fairly specific to lyme, but not completely specific because there are other spirochetal bacteria. Not many, but some. I see on your other post that you are getting lists of bacteria with flagella -- but just to clarify, it is the flagella of Spirochetal bacteria.

 

Also worth noting, is that usually band 41 comes with the note that it is typically the first band to show positive for IGM. But no matter, It always goes back to the notion that lyme is always a clinical diagnosis -- where lab work is considered, but thankfully not wholly relied upon.

 

 

I see people have posted other possibilities, but I do think it is identified with spirochetes only. As to strep, Dr. T (pandas doc) stated on this forum some time back that "It is NOT found in streptococci or mycoplasma, so infection with those can't be confounding this result." He too was hypothesizing as he was seeing a lot of band 41.

 

Many (most?) lyme docs would not consider a positive on band 41 alone to be a positive for borrelia. But again, it would be evidence to be considered along with symptoms / history when making a diagnosis.

Thanks. This helps me narrow my googling. DD is not overly "lymey" in her results so far and the LLMD has been reluctant to treat based on test results and clinical thus far. But other things (yeast, h Pylori, myco, parasites) have been negative as was Bartonella. The one result that keeps getting more ++ every time we test is 41. Her issues are mostly GI and neuropsych. For two years, we've just kept this on the radar. Nothing severe enough to pursue. But lately, things are escalating and it's like watching the little bubbles form on the bottom of a pot of water just before it starts to boil.

 

So I was going to use my anxiety-driven insomnia to see if other things could be worth investigating.

[LNN]

I'm not anywhere near as well-read on lyme as I once was on Pandas. Can you explain why multiple positive bands are needed to get an overall "positive" lab result from any lab?

[PacificMama]

Most labs running the western blot will follow the CDC reporting criteria for determining a positive, which is a positive of at least 5 of 10 possible bands. Often misunderstood by many physicians, this criteria was originally set up by CDC for reporting purposes only -- and they do not intend for it to be diagnostic. Also, due to a short-lived vaccine years ago, the CDC excludes the 2 most specific bands for borrelia -- and so most labs do not test for these.

 

The Igenex western blot is considered superior because 1) it does test for these 2 very specific borrelia bands, 2) it includes more strains of borrelia; and 3) it is a more sensitive test. The standard for OVERALL "positive" for Igenex is less bands than the CDC. Their reasoning is that several of these bands are exclusively specific to only borrelia, that having just a couple of them would most certainly indicate borrelia exposure.

 

Buy to your question... why do the labs need to have multiple bands present to give an overall positive? As far as the CDC, well their standards are just lunacy all the way around. As to Igenex, I would imagine that it's just good science to require confirmatory positives on the individual bands. The 2 bands with "issues" on the Igenex are the 41 (which could indicate another spirochetal infection); and 31, which may cross react with certain VIRUSES. This is why they have the 31 confirmatory test -- in case a person only tests positive on 31, and they want to verify. (I have seen people ask why they just don't do this 31 epitope in the first place. I imagine it's because it is an additional testing process that of course costs additional money to have done. Not everyone will need/want to have it done, and would not want to have the increased cost up front).

 

Many llmd's would consider that even one positive on an exclusively-borrelia-specific band (or indeterminite) indicates exposure. But exposure is not disease. The labs are just one piece of the pie of a clinical diagnosis. History, exposure, symptoms, physical exam, responses to treatment -- these are the other pie pieces. A skilled doctor, with experience, is invaluable.

 

One final thing. Many llmd's refer to these infections as borrellia-like infection, or bartonella-like infection. The fact is, not every bacteria, virus or parasite that is transmitted by a tick has been identified. Sort of frightening, but true. These doctors do an incredible job with the tools they have to treat their patients the best way we currently know how. But the science will keep evolving. (and I'm sure one day in the future there will be an answer as to why that band 41 shows up alone so often).

 

Hope that helps!

 

I'm not anywhere near as well-read on lyme as I once was on Pandas. Can you explain why multiple positive bands are needed to get an overall "positive" lab result from any lab?

[LNN]

Thanks, this was very helpful. When I read Cure Unknown last spring, it was before I knew it was in my family. I need to re-read with fresh eyes, but haven't made the time to do so.

 

For those who've been secretly crossing your fingers for us, we just picked up a script for zith for DD. In a week, we'll discuss adding a second abx and do a month trial of lyme protocol. Praying it helps, as the OCD fairies have made this past week pretty rough. I miss my bubbly daughter. Hopefully this brings her back. (otherwise I'm going to have to find some other lunatic fringe forums looking for answers and after two years of knowing you guys, I'd hate to have to start over breaking in a new family )

[NancyD]

I'll be thinking of you, Laura. I really hope it helps your daughter!!

 

Nancy

[sf_mom]

Wishing you all the best for a positive result.

 

Our daughter's first herx was intense with anxiety that ramped for the first two weeks of Lyme protocol, last change in protocol we had five days huge increase in mood liability not really rages.

 

I'll be interested to know if your daughter herx's, how intense, length, etc.

 

-Wendy

[lss]

Thanks, this was very helpful. When I read Cure Unknown last spring, it was before I knew it was in my family. I need to re-read with fresh eyes, but haven't made the time to do so.

 

For those who've been secretly crossing your fingers for us, we just picked up a script for zith for DD. In a week, we'll discuss adding a second abx and do a month trial of lyme protocol. Praying it helps, as the OCD fairies have made this past week pretty rough. I miss my bubbly daughter. Hopefully this brings her back. (otherwise I'm going to have to find some other lunatic fringe forums looking for answers and after two years of knowing you guys, I'd hate to have to start over breaking in a new family )

 

 

Where is that "LIKE" button when you need it!

 

Linda

[RNmom]

Re: ****One final thing. Many llmd's refer to these infections as borrellia-like infection, or bartonella-like infection. The fact is, not every bacteria, virus or parasite that is transmitted by a tick has been identified. Sort of frightening, but true. These doctors do an incredible job with the tools they have to treat their patients the best way we currently know how. But the science will keep evolving. (and I'm sure one day in the future there will be an answer as to why that band 41 shows up alone so often).

Hope that helps!****

 

Thank you PacificMama this helps a lot!

Edited January 14, 2011 by RNmom

[LNN]

A friend sent me this link to this discussion with Dr Jones

Dr. Charles Jones' Approach to Reading Western Blots:

A Wise, Common Sense Position

http://www.personalconsult.com/articles/drjonesapproach.html

 

I don't know anything about Dr Schaller - it says it was reprinted with permission from Dr Jones in 2004. But thought it was relevant to this thread and it might help some who are trying to sift through their results.

Edited January 15, 2011 by LLM