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Claire

No-fenol enzyme

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Claire,

I just read your post about the enzymes on the Pfeiffer results thread, I think it would be helpful to those reading this post if it were on here. Is there anyway you could copy it over?

That way it would all be in one spot.

Thanks

Me!

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Reposted here, from another thread, at Ausclare's request. Though this primarily discusses the protein enyzmes (for gluten/casein issues) rather than the phenol. A little of the no-fenol though...

 

Claire

 

From Claire:

 

http://www.enzymestuff.com/offdiet.htm

"User" feedback on the impact of enzymes on their children (ASD vs tic syndromes however) I really recommend reading this. Some people were better off with the enzymes and no diet restrictions than with diet restrictions. Anecdotal, but some of these stories really hit home.

 

... But Dr McCandless made a big deal about only taking it for 'accidents'.

 

Here is the storefront.

https://host6.websitesource.com/houstonni/M...t2/merchant.mvc

 

The product I am going to buy their brand and try it out.

http://houstonni.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv...Category_Code=E

 

Price: $22.00

 

An All-Fungal Protease Version of Peptizydeâ„¢

 

High-Potency Enzyme Combination for Digestion of Food Protein

High Dipeptidyl Peptidase IV (DPP IV) Activity Without Papain

Increases Breakdown of Casein, Gluten, Soy Protein

Odorless and Tasteless Version of Original Peptizydeâ„¢

Safe, Non-Toxic Alternative or Supplement to GFCF Diet

 

For those using Peptizydeâ„¢ successfully, there is no need to change to AFP Peptizydeâ„¢. AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ was designed for those who could not tolerate the original Peptizydeâ„¢ formulation.

 

AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ was developed in response to parents request for a high DPP IV-containing enzyme product that did not include fruit-based enzymes such as papain or bromelain. Like Peptizydeâ„¢, it is a combination of three different proteolytic enzymes isolated from fungal plant sources. Each enzyme has a unique set of peptide bonds it prefers to break, so the combination of these enzymes allows much more efficient means of quickly and thoroughly breaking down (hydrolyzing) proteins to its smaller components. The enzymes in AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ work only on food proteins, not carbohydrates, fats, or other compounds, and do not interfere with medications or other supplements (unless they are also proteins, which is extremely unlikely). AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ may be used in combination with other enzyme products, such as HN-Zyme Prime and or No-Fenol. One would use either Peptizydeâ„¢ or AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ for protein digestion based on 1) known sensitivities to papain or, 2) a child objecting to the odor of Peptizydeâ„¢ (which is due to the presence of papain).

 

The aminopeptidase enzyme dipeptidyl peptidase IV, or DPP IV, is able to hydrolyze and inactivate the exorphin peptide, casomorphin. However, for maximal protein breakdown, it is not useful alone, and should be combined with other proteases with different and less stringent peptide bond specificity. For this reason, AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ also contains two other fungal proteases with high activity in acid conditions. These enzymes are present in AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ in high amounts for the purpose of quickly hydrolyzing proteins while the food is still in the stomach. The ability of AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ enzymes to withstand the low pH of the stomach and remain active under acidic conditions allows hydrolysis of casein and gluten prior to entrance into the small intestine. Casein and gluten, in the presence of pancreatic enzymes in the duodenum, can produce exorphin peptides that may be readily absorbed from the intestine (these peptides are not absorbed from the stomach). AFP Peptizydeâ„¢ supplements the "normal" hydrolysis of casein, gluten, and other food proteins such that the exorphin peptides are not produced because the specific cleavage pattern to produce these peptides is altered.

 

-----

 

From Jennifer:

 

The person I talked to today at Houston Nutraceutics said that it is not necessary to go gf/cf. If you are allready following the diet than start re-incorporating those foods gradually, and if your not on the diet take the enzymes with each meal 1-2 a day and add an extra one if the meal contains gluten or casein. He said you kind of need to play around with the amounts. He also said there are families that have had real success w/o the gf/cf diet with these enzymes. The price wasn't too bad either. The ones that Dr.McCandless recommends are well over 40$. I got both types of enzymes plus shipping for 44$.

 

------------------

From Claire:

 

 

I just ordered both also. She told me 1/meal for 3 meals a day. I suspect it won't happen during lunch at school.

 

FYI I got the AFP type due to less smell and people who have mold issues.

 

She said wait 10 days (and monitor) before starting the no-fenol.

 

My plan--it arrives tomorrow night:

 

AFP peptizades for 10 days (no diet change--we have some cheese already though) She says take it each meal, even if no gluten/casein

--this way I get a 'baseline'.

 

Add the no-fenol (she said only with the offending fruits (by the way, she is part owner and didn't know about amines). Watch for change. We do berries and grapefruit anyway.

 

Later challenge with wheat--e.g. Thanksgiving dinner.

 

Ok, so I will post my results. Please do post if you notice also. They say it takes up to 2 months though.

 

You and I are not the best test case for the no-fenol because no tic reactions. But the wheat impact does seem to be noticeable in energy level. But on the braintalk gluten free board, a poster said that enzymes helped with their child's corn/occasionally casein issues--even though she doesn't challenge with wheat. I wonder about all the corn we have now--even if only every 4 days.

 

I am starting the Klaire Serenaid for the next 2 days until the other arrives.

 

Claire

 

ps Thanks again for the Houston Enzyme mention. Our DAN doctor recommended the Klaire Serenaid Enzymes (initially created by the same Dr. Houston) which I have had on hand for 2 months, and I have discussed this on the gluten-free board, but somehow Pfeiffer's recommendation has impact--they deal with so many ASD patients.

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Just something to add about the whole methylation thing. Did any of you guys know that carnitine is simply lysine that has been methylated?

 

I found this interesting as my son really benefits from carnitine, and I have wondered why it works for him. Maybe it is the methyl bit or simply he does not have enough methyl groups to methylate the lysine into carnitine for himself.

 

Caz

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Caz,

 

No, I didn't know that about carnitine. It is commonly used for add/adhd kids.

I have (had?) a deficiency in carnitine fyi. I had convinced our DAN doctor to run vitamin/antioxidants deficiency tests on the whole family.

 

We are still attacking the antioxidant angle. Key for the mercury/metals, which affects everything. Oxidative stress is its own issue I guess.

 

I am interested in the sulfation end. I think the methylation aspect is fascinating. I am going to ask about adding molybd. (for sulfation). I wouldn't want to do it without a test though.

 

Maybe because I am doing my research so late, but I just don't get the role of enzymes in helping. I do get that missing enzymes (e.g. DPPIV) can mean people/kids can't digest certain proteins/gluten/casein, and that supplementing with them might remove some diet restrictions. From there, you might not have the opiate reaction of the gluten/casein--or whatever reaction they get from not handling them properly.

 

What I don't get is why they say that pept. enzymes can help in their own right--e.g. even if you do a gfcf diet. Does anyone understand this? Is it purely that you absorb more nutrients? Is it that they prevent other foods that you don't digest properly (e.g. anecdotal comments on corn. Or is it exclusively that it can help you break down histamines, as you mentioned?

 

I am asking this independently of the no-fenol enzyme.

 

All this methylation discussion is on the enzymestuff site, so they must be interrelated!

 

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=f...odspice&dbid=48

 

Are these the same amines as those in the restricted diets? see below

Vitamin B6--Brain Cell and Nervous System Activity

Vitamin B6 plays numerous roles in our nervous system, many of which involve neurological (brain cell) activity. B6 is necessary for the creation of amines, a type of messaging molecule or neurotransmitter that the nervous system relies on to transmit messages from one nerve to the next. Some of the amine-derived neurotransmitters that require vitamin B6 for their production are serotonin, a lack of which is linked to depression; melatonin, the hormone needed for a good night's sleep; epinephrine and norepinephrine, hormones that help us respond to stress; and GABA, which is needed for normal brain function.

 

Vitamin B6--Cardiovascular and Cancer Protection

Vitamin B6 plays another critically important role in methylation, a chemical process in which methyl groups are transferred from one molecule to another. Many essential chemical events in the body are made possible by methylation, for example, genes can be switched on and turned off in this way. This is particularly important in cancer prevention since one of the genes that can be switched on and off is the tumor suppressor gene, p53. Another way that methylation helps prevent cancer is by attaching methyl groups to toxic substances to make them less toxic and encourage their elimination from the body.

 

Methylation is also important to cardiovascular health. Methylation changes a potentially dangerous molecule called homocysteine into other, benign substances. Since homocysteine can directly damage blood vessel walls greatly increasing the progression of atherosclerosis, high homocysteine levels are associated with a significantly increased risk for heart attack and stroke. Eating foods rich in vitamin B6 can help keep homocysteine levels low. In addition, diets high in vitamin B6-rich foods are associated with overall lower rates of heart disease, even when homocysteine levels are normal, most likely because of all the other beneficial activities of this energetic B vitamin.

 

A single baked potato will also provide you with 14.7% of the daily value for fiber, but remember the fiber in potatoes is mostly in their skin. If you want the cholesterol-lowering, colon cancer preventing, and bowel supportive effects of fiber, be sure to eat the potato's flavorful skin as well as its creamy center.

 

 

More on B6

http://www.learningplaceonline.com/nutriti.../b-vitamins.htm

B6 helps over 100 enzymes do their work of digesting food in your body.

 

Claire

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I found something on the enzyme stuff on B6 and pyroluria....the asterisks are mine. We do supplements, but this balancing act scares me!

http://www.enzymestuff.com/conditionpdd.htm

 

Too B or Not Too B

discussion on excessive B vitamins

 

Sometimes parents are advised to give really excessively very high doses of B6 for their children with autism spectrum conditions. However, experience shows that many children have very terrible reactions to supplements with excessively high doses of B6. The ARI information from over several decades also shows that the majority of people with autism do not benefit from high B6 vitamin supplements although some do. While some B6 as well as other basic vitamins are beneficial, excessive amounts may be too much neuro-

stimulant particularly for neurologically sensitive people. It is important to check with a qualified medical doctor for your situation when taking anything over the Recommended Daily Allowance of anything.

 

Why so many negative reactions and why might some do okay with it? For one thing, most all sources agree that B vitamins work as a team together and should be taken in the proper ratios - a balance of B vitamins. Taking an excessive amount of just one or two individual vitamins in the B family can cause deficiencies in other B vitamins. So you might just be trading one problem for another.

 

Another problem is that many synthetically made B6 vitamins may be made from coal-tar. Coal-tar derived synthetics include artificial colorings and flavorings. So if someone has a sulfate processing problem, or is sensitive to artificial additives of this nature, or doesn't tolerate phenolic compounds or artificial additives, then they may very likely not tolerate B6 vitamins if they are synthetically derived. If you are not tolerating B vitamins, you might want to look at a non- synthetic source of nutrients. More information and several non-synthetic formulations are at the link below. In the middle of this page are some links that go to research showing why taking lots of synthetic supplements is not always the most healthful, and you might want to try getting as much nutrition from natural sources as possible.

 

Nutrition and enzymes (general diet strategies)

 

*****This may be one good reason that many seem to do better with enzymes with regular diet (as much as possible) than super-restrictive diets and lots of synthetic supplements. And a reason why Peptizyde with casein/gluten foods in the diet bring much more improvement that staying on a GFCF diet for some.*****

 

Another reason may have something to do with yeast. Dr. Semon (the author of 'Feast without Yeast' and autism doctor) said that if you have yeast you should NOT take B vitamins as these feed yeast...or the yeast intercept it so you don't benefit, etc. Something else to look into exactly if you have yeast and are considering B vitamins above the RDA level.

 

So who might benefit from extra B vitamins? Well, if you have a genetic condition called pyroluria. Pyroluria is none to cause deficiencies in B6 and zinc. The following link shows that pyroluria runs about 20% in autism and 30% in schizophrenia (although some doctors speculate this might be a bit higher). These numbers are roughly about the same number of people who seem to benefit from extra doses of B6 vitamins (extra zinc and evening primrose. So it might be that those benefitting from extra B6 are really correcting something brought on by pyroluria which brings the total body amount of B6 up to a typical level. The extra B6 is necessary to override the deficiency so the person is actually metabolizing something closer to an RDA or needed amount. Something to consider. There is a test that can be done through most commercial labs that checks for pyroluria. You can ask about having this done if you are considering extra high B6 amounts. This link also lists the symptoms/characteristics of pyroluria.

 

Pyroluria

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Here is an outline or organization scheme for all the possible therapies:

 

1. Some type of one-on-one interacting with child

(this would include academics and socializing skills)

 

Floortime

Son-rise

ABA, VBA, DTT

Faciliated Communication

2. Some type of Sensory Integration Therapy

 

Sensory Integration (SI) therapy/Occupational Therapy

Physical therapy/hippotherapy/sports if needed

Hearing therapy/AIT/Listening program if needed

Irlen lenses/special glasses if needed

Speech therapy/language training if needed

PECS - picture exchange system/sign language if needed

3. Some type of biological measures, if needed only

(this order is what I think is most efficient as a guide)

 

Enzymes (primary)

Probiotics (primary, in yogurt or supplements)

Medications if necessary or helpful

Extra measures to heal gut (zinc, oatmeal)

Reduce toxins (Feingold diet, general detox, reduce chemical load)

Extra supplements if necessary (magnesium, selenium, calcium, multivitamin, EFAs)

Remove other problematic foods if necessary

Yeast/bacteria treatment if necessary

Viral treatment if necessary

Special detox or chelation if necessary

Digestive enzymes up front. The reason is that they are efficient, often eliminate the need for special diets and a bucketfuls of supplements. You may still want to take a few selected supplements or remove a few foods, but not the exasperating and expensive amounts sometimes given. Good results often come quickly and inexpensively with enzymes and most people see improvement of some kind within the first 3-4 weeks, which is very encouraging.

 

Probiotics are very good is assisting healing a gut and proper intestinal function.

 

Check for yeast/bacteria problems, or even viruses. Treat those up front because that is at the root of many problems and often you can see rapid improvement.

 

Remove artificial chemicals/additives/colorings and consider epsoms salts. This seems to improve behavior relatively quickly for the majority of those sensitive to it, and it is something you can do right away and is CHEAP!

see Epsom salts

see Feingold Program

see Magnesium

 

After all this, if you need to still remove some foods or add some supplements, do that.

 

Then any additional special detoxification protocols. Some of these can be done concurrently and some not, so they should be research thoroughly.

 

Claire

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When I think of my own kid, who has dysbiosis (level 3), leaky gut (.54) and probably heavy metals, I imagine that he would have problems absorbing/getting adequate nutrition from his foods, even with supplementation. His CDSA showed no yeast, but tomorrow the nurse at my son's doctor clinic is trying a new candida test on him. It is a 10 minute, while you wait test (like a pregnancy test I think) that has been developed here in Perth, Western Australia. I'll let you know what I think of it after tommorrow.

 

When I think of these factors, I can see how enzymes that break down foods into more "dealable with" type particles would really help. In fact his CDSA said he should take digestive enzymes with meals. I just bought some off the shelf ones from the local health food shop.

 

How all this works, and if it will help, I can't wait to hear about your experiences Claire.

 

About Molybdenum - my son has been taking this for about a year, as his hair analysis showed he was extremely deficient in it. I ran out a few weeks ago, and after reading this, have got some more. The Doctor said it is really good for antagonising copper if you have too much of that. His latest HTMA showed molybdenum was up to the reference range, and there was less copper, so maybe that is helping his moods generally be so much better. I believe too much copper is quite harmful in many ways

 

How the whole sulfication/methylation thing works is becoming to complex for me.

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Wow,

 

I haven't had much time over the last week to keep up with the posts and coming on this morning was overwheming. Yes, you do need a degree in biochemistry to understand all of this.

 

As I have reported, my son's tics are pretty much gone with B6, magnesium and Zinc. However, over the past couple of weeks he has started this fidgeting with his hands. He pinches his jeans and sort of rubs his fingers together. I was thinking this was still a minor tic and I should keep upping the B6. Now, I am wondering if this is a reaction of too much B6, causing the imbalance somewhere else. It is a never ending process trying to figure it all out and waiting for reactions. I am very curious to get the hair analysis back next week.

 

Heather

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Hi Heather and Caz,

 

Caz, yes, copper is bad stuff for our kids. Pfeiffer is big on that also.

 

Very interesting about your son's molybd. deficiency! Certainly fits with the sulfate/phenol issue, doesn't it??

 

As for this complexity, I think some testing is needed, and likely some trial and error for our kids with very controlled variables. I am currently reducing B6 and adding enzymes, and tracking excema--which seems to be improving. Too soon to make claims. I am a little looser on the rotation diet (holidays and school events weren't cooperating)

 

Soon I will challenge with some wheat. If I can get another clear skin baseline, that will make this process much more objective.

 

"Fortunately" I have most of the same underlying conditions, just not the symptoms! So I am testing this on myself also, just to see what happens (e.g. some gluten/casein/corn...sensitivity, high mercury, high yeast). For example, unlike my son, my vitamin supplementation only corrected 1/2 of my deficiencies! Carnitine, zinc and folate among others were stubborn. Of course, I am taking this individually for better absorption (I do feel that makes a difference). Plus perhaps the enzymes will help with absorption.

 

I hope that you won't hesitate to speculate on some of these interrelationships. As long as we are clear that we are just 'trying' to understand it, vs claiming something is a fact, I am hoping we can put our minds together--or find other links that offer insight.

 

Messing with these pathways is complex. I want to maximize pre-testing to avoid risks. I want to try things one step at a time and watch. I want to be more conservative on the supplements with the enzymes. I believe that we must fine-tune the levels for each of our children.

 

My son saw a movie this weekend--the same movie that set him off a year ago with a horrible tic. Granted on an LCD projector--but a large screen and in a dark room. Not one ounce of reaction. Truly the treatments over the past 10 months have made a huge difference. (to be deleted--personal info--don't quote). I am just trying to attack the diet restrictions, and minimize the needed supplements.

 

Caz, I do think the metal treatment (IF it is an issue) is a necessary element. Whatever caused our kids tendencies, I read time and again that the mercury is believed to be what put them over the edge. I agree it is important to check. Another test (well, in the US), is the Spectracell test (now $265) for vitamin and antioxidant levels. No doctor's signature required. Those antioxidant deficiencies, if any, would impact how you would treat metal issues, if any. This is part of the DAN protocol. e.g. if no antioxidant issues, then maybe NDF is best. If antioxidant issues, then maybe that path is best. You know my opinion on the CDSA (and Phyl's). They were negative for Phyl's and my son--our DAN doctor says they often get false negatives cuz the yeast clumps. I like the Great Plains test. Did you have him try the spit test?

 

Claire

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Claire,

 

When we were at Pfeiffer I told the nurse we had already tried to eliminate artificial ingredients, dyes, etc. She said that was good. My sister did say that they told her that red, yellow and orange dyes were bad because they latch onto zinc and it gets excreted, causing a person to become deficient. I'm not sure if I realized that's why they are bad. Has anyone else heard that?

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That is interesting about food colors and zinc. I think another reason to stay away from artificial stuff is to not burden the body any further with unnecessary toxins. I believe also that food colors are either high in phenols or salicylates ( can't remember which). My Feingold handbook talks about it, but it is packed away at the moment.

 

 

Jennifer

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Jennifer,

 

I read artificial colors were high in phenols, and a poster on another board said that the no-fenol helped not just with salicylates in fruits, but the phenols in artificial colors. I have a call into Houston Nutriceuticals to see if they claim this. I certainly see no reason to ever buy/stock stuff with artificial ingredients, but would just like to give my son more slack at parties and events.

 

I am kind of excited about this. Like the ducks are lined up. My son is normal health now, and that this may dramatically reduce the diet restrictions AND reduce the supplements while it increases his nutrient absorption.

 

I want to research enzymes and yeast further.

 

Of course, this is way too early to tell. But I hadn't realized Heather was doing enzymes and her son has only been getting better and better, with fewer and fewer restrictions. It does give me hope.

 

And my son even seemed better within the time period we started on this. I was using Klaire enzymes for 7 days, then nothing for 3 days, then started again for 4 days. Really, he does seem 'happier' and his excema is better--and I am less careful with rotation of foods. But I need another week, then I will add wheat.

 

Please let us know if you notice any improvment in your son with these.

 

Claire

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Guest Guest_Jennifer

Claire,

 

We've been using the enzynes for about 4 days now, I did notice that the paperwork that came with the enzymes mentioned that some regression may occur during the peptide withdrawl...something to keep in mind.

 

Jennifer

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Claire,

 

Thanks for the info on synthetic vitamin b. I read my bottle, and it said nothing, so I rang the manufacturer and sure enough they said they are synthesised in the lab.

 

I didn't even know such a thing was possible.

 

I'll look into it a bit more.

 

Caz

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