Baffled and worried by a spike in ODD. Any suggestions?

[dan]

Our 8-year-old son's tics have gotten much, much better over the past year, to the point where most of the time they're either nonexistent or not noticeable. The bouts of oppositional-defiant behavior (ODD) that were a very troublesome part of his tic picture last year had also gotten much better.

 

But about two weeks ago, we noticed that his ODD began to resurface, and last night we got a phone call from his teacher saying that he's recently begun acting oppositional at school. We can't think of any reason for this sudden spike in ODD, other than fall allergies.

 

The ODD spike has come concurrently with post-nasal drip (which in him usually comes from pollen allergies) and also with some hyperactivity. We've been giving him extra vitamin C for the allergies, but it hasn't helped the ODD.

 

One of the things that seems to have helped our son's tics and related problems is Bonnie Grimaldi's vitamins (also DMG, EPA/DHA, probiotics, avoiding certain foods, low-dose guanfacine, and old-fashioned osteopathic manipulations). I noticed a few weeks ago that Bonnie just added vitamin D to her TS-Plus Control formula, which didn't have it before. That's the only other change we've introduced in recent weeks. Could the vitamin D be the cause of his ODD?

 

We're also in the process of weaning him off the guanfacine (Tenex), but his ODD spike started a week before that, so it couldn't be the cause.

 

We're at our wit's end here. His ODD has gotten quite bad again; last year it alienated his classmates and drove his teacher crazy. It's like he's full of negative energy that has to be released. The neurologist/psychiatrist team that examined him said it's systemic rather than psychological, and it sure seems that way to us, because most of the time he's fine, but when he gets into an ODD state, he can't be reasoned with and thinks he's done nothing wrong.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?

[Chemar]

Dan

 

i really know so little about ODD that I dont feel qualified to comment other than to say I do feel for you and your son and familyu thru this.

Sudden waxings of anything are so alarming, I know

 

I will try to find out about possible VitD effect for you, tho that would surprise me, yet, knowing how fine tuned our kids with neuro issues are, even something that innocuous could be to blame

 

also re the allergies, that could be a major factor! Have you checked out the allergy help remedies at http://www.nativeremedies.com

I have heard from many people who are extremely pleased with these traditional herbal remedies

[mrsdoubtfyre]

I don't have Bonnie's formula handy.... but does it have Vit A (retinol ) in it?

As from cod liver oil? The only formula I could find was the one without D, and it has betacarotene in it which is not the same as Vit A.

 

High levels of Vit A (not betacarotene) can cause headache and cerebral irritation. It has also been

implicated in pseudotumor cerebri.

 

Her website does not give Vit D info... what is the dose in there?

 

here is a link to symptoms of Vit D overdosage.

http://www.prn2.usm.my/mainsite/bulletin/sun/1996/sun44.html

 

While new attention is being paid to Vit D now in several disease states, use in children

is not as clear. Before I suggest levels higher than 1000IU for adults/day, I suggest a D blood level

to be drawn first, to give safer guidelines for use.

 

So please post the type of Vit A in that product, whether or not the D is from cod liver oil, and the

dose of D being used.

 

It has been my experience as a parent that ODD type behaviors also occur when a child is sick or in

pain (headache) and cannot articulate the discomfort and hence acts out instead. I don't know you well

enough to know if this is a possibility for you.

[dan]

Dan

 

i really know so little about ODD that I dont feel qualified to comment other than to say I do feel for you and your son and familyu thru this.

Sudden waxings of anything are so alarming, I know

 

I will try to find out about possible VitD effect for you, tho that would surprise me, yet, knowing how fine tuned our kids with neuro issues are, even something that innocuous could be to blame

 

also re the allergies, that could be a major factor! Have you checked out the allergy help remedies at http://www.nativeremedies.com

I have heard from many people who are extremely pleased with these traditional herbal remedies

 

Thanks, Chemar. I didn't know about nativeremedies.com and will check out their allergy help remedies.

 

I don't have Bonnie's formula handy.... but does it have Vit A (retinol ) in it?

As from cod liver oil? The only formula I could find was the one without D, and it has betacarotene in it which is not the same as Vit A.

 

High levels of Vit A (not betacarotene) can cause headache and cerebral irritation. It has also been

implicated in pseudotumor cerebri.

 

Her website does not give Vit D info... what is the dose in there?

 

here is a link to symptoms of Vit D overdosage.

http://www.prn2.usm.my/mainsite/bulletin/sun/1996/sun44.html

 

While new attention is being paid to Vit D now in several disease states, use in children

is not as clear. Before I suggest levels higher than 1000IU for adults/day, I suggest a D blood level

to be drawn first, to give safer guidelines for use.

 

So please post the type of Vit A in that product, whether or not the D is from cod liver oil, and the

dose of D being used.

 

It has been my experience as a parent that ODD type behaviors also occur when a child is sick or in

pain (headache) and cannot articulate the discomfort and hence acts out instead. I don't know you well

enough to know if this is a possibility for you.

 

Thanks, Mrs. D. Each Bontech TS-Plus Control capsule contains 20 IU of vitamin D, but it doesn't list the source of the vitamin D. He's taking 12 capsules a day and so is getting 240 IU of vitamin D per day. I don't think Bonnie has posted the vitamin D addition on her website yet.

 

The vitamin A in the capsules is beta-carotene (250 IU per capsule).

 

It's not hard for us to tell when our son is acting out, and his recent ODD behavior doesn't fall into that category but rather seems to be systemic and has been accompanied by a bunch of other symptoms that include hyperactivity, post-nasal drip, waking up earlier than usual and wetting the bed.

[Claire]

Pfeiffer says that a zinc deficiency can be a cause of anger, which I assume is a part of ODD. My son went through an anger bout briefly and I tested him for zinc. www.directlabs.com has a zinc serum test. He was low, and really did go back to his sweet self after supplementing extra zinc. We had been supplementing 50 mg/day and had to move to 70 mg at the time. All under doctor supervision and frequent retesting.

 

Pfeiffer clinic has treated many people with behavioral issues...they did a lot of testing on prison inmates in the early days. Much of their protocol and testing is supposed to benefit it. (They claim more success with that and ADD than tics...)

 

Claire

[kim]

Dan,

 

I just read a couple of studeis about EPA (especially) in regards to behavioral issues. You can probably find what I read here

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=...DHA&spell=1

 

From reading parents posts on an autism site, many say 5HTP for unruly meltdowns, which I know is not the same thing as your son is having, but it may help....mag & calcium, zinc, as Claire pointed out and the omega's.

 

As always, check with Dr. about adding any new supplement FIRST, then check yourself, if you aren't 100% certain that they know. I have heard of this more than once! A Dr. that prescribes a medication may have NO IDEA about supplement interactions with drugs. You need one that's knowledgeable about both, if your using both.

 

We do use extra mag. taurate and extra calcium in addition to the Bontech vits.

 

I totally agree about allergies. They can really mess up mood.

 

I noticed that you said you were using vitamin C. You may want to add Quercetin too. My oldest son takes both of these Plus Zyrtec for allergies.

 

Claire referred to Pfeiffer. Here's a link if you haven't read there yet.

 

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshMP.htm

 

Excerpt:

 

However, one common thread which is present in most cases of SZ, ODD, ADHD, etc...... is excessive oxidative stress. As a result most of these patients exhibit high-normal (or worse) levels of toxic elements.

 

And (for others too)

 

A word of caution --- Manganese supplements tend to aggravate Tourette's Syndrome, and can also worsen the symptoms of OCD.

 

I have always found that statement interesting since my boys were both soy formula fed babies, and it has a LOT of maganese.

[dan]

Thanks much, Claire and Kim. Your feedback was very helpful.

Dan

[Giselle]

Hi Dan, the only time my son wets the bed is when he gets dairy - which also could cause the conjestion and post nasal drip. I guess, from what I understand, a lot of bed wetting stems from dairy. Sorry you are going through this. The drip could also mean he's coming down with a virus and virus' always result in more tics for my son. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

Giselle

[dan]

Thanks for this, Giselle!

Dan