supplement questions

[deagar]

I am slowly trying new things to help my son with his tics. We did the pyroluria testing...negative. The delayed food sensitivity testing showed moderate sensitivities and we have tried hard to avoid the culprits for about 3 1/2 weeks now with no change in tics. I am seeing a naturopath doc and have tried some drops etc. without any change. Now I want to add in supplements. My pediatrician, although very supportive or alternative methods, isn't that familiar with supplement dosages and my naturopath doc has given some doses but I am not totally sold on her knowledge, especially when it comes to tic disorders. I don't have another place to go at this point so need some guidance, even though I will still be working with doctors frequently. So my question here is...my son is 8 and about 82#, the naturopath doc told me to go with 600mg. calcium/300mg. magnesium/20mg. zinc and 6-9 grams of inositol. MYy neighbor who is a pharmacist thought the inositol was SUPER HIGH. The naturopath wasn't familiar with taurine and therefore didn't offer a dose. She said in general 1/2 - 3/4 of an adult dose is what she would recommend. She just doesn't seem to know much about this and I feel like I am trying to teach her and am not sure if she is taking this seriously since I refer to getting my knowledge from this site. So any info I can get on what others have given their child (similar size) would be helpful for comparison. Thanks - Deanna

[Chemar]

Deanna

I agree that dose of Inositol is waaaay high?!

we use 500mg per day and have done since my son was 11 (6 yrs ago)

 

have u considered trying Bonnie's supps as then you have it all dosed correctly. many people find them really helpful, tho it should be mentioned that for some, they are not a good match, likely because those people dont need all that is in them. Also, it can be pricey compared with adding your own in some instances

 

http://www.bonniegr.com

[deagar]

Chemer:

Originally I was considering Bonnie's but after reading many posts, I don't know if I want to go this route yet since it all isn't for everyone. He is only 8 and when I first considered it, he was 6. Cost is a consideration along with the fact that I don't want him to get overwelmed with too many pills and not knowing what works and what doesn't. I'd rather add a little at a time and check for changes and go from there. Does that make sense? Deanna

[Chemar]

yes, deanna that makes total sense to me.

hard for me to advise on dose tho (other than that the inositol is too high!!)

 

but yes, generally a 12 yo over 120 lbs can take adult dose and younger than that should be 1/2 to 1/4 depending on weight

[kim]

Deanna,

 

I am using Bontech vits for my boys.

 

According to the dosage chart the suggested use is: 67-89 lb. 15-19 capsules.

 

If I were to start giving these individually, I would start with the calcium (calcium citrate/ascorbate)

magnesium (as magnesium taurate), P5P, (bontech contains Vit. B6, but I would use the P5P), Zinc, (my son's had low zinc ...76 for one, 90 for other. According to blood work this was low end of reference range, but considered LOW by other sources) vitamin E (natural, non synthetic), vitamin C (EsterC, calcium asorbate), Vitamin A (as beta-carotene), and vitamin B12.

 

For my youngest son, I would use more biotin than the Bontech vits provide, and I would give, and have ordered vitamin C as sodium asorbate. During an illness, vit C and selenium are looking like good supplements to have on hand individually. You have to be careful with selenium. I would stay on the conservative side with dosage. Also, I would use sublingual B12, which the bontech vits. don't provide.

 

Bonnie's vitamins have many other ingredients like grape seed extract, and other things that I think are helpful, but as I starting point, I think I would go with what's posted above.

 

I'm afraid, by the time you purchase these individually, the cost or the amount of pills are not going to be reduced, but you will have more control.

 

BTW in a full 19 vits, the Bontech vits would provide about 90 mgs. of inositol.

 

When doing individual supplements, the more things you can test (best)/observe (sometimes best we can do) the better chance you have of improvement. For instance, knowing if your dealing with high/low histime levels, candida or bacteria overgrowth, limited diet, etc. You will want to make adjustments to supplements.

My youngest son has the flimsiest finger and toe nails! I have noticed that since he was a toddler. Biotin is a supplement that I think is necessairy for him ( a few other reasons for that too) I try to look at my boys as a "whole" not focus on specifically, what might reduce tics.

 

I'm assuming that you have a copy of the ingredients and dosage schedule from the Bontech web site?

 

Feel free to ask any specific question that you think I could help with

 

Kim

[deagar]

Thanks Kim! I do have some specific questions. According to Bontech, my son should start with approx. 4 capsules and work up. If that is the case, that would be 250mg. Calcium, 125mg. Magnesium and 10mg. of zinc. My naturopath said he could have 600 calcium, 300 magnesium and 20 zinc. Since I'm not totally sold on her calculations after her inositol recommendation, is this too high to start out with in your opinion?

Also, I already opened the Zinc (as monomethionine), Calcium (as carbonate, citrate, amino acid chelate) & Magnesium (as oxide, citrate, amino acid chelate) Plus (with Boron & Vitamin D). Is it OK to start with these or do I need to stick with the Magnesium Taurate and Calcium Citrate? Should I email you personally or use this site? Thanks again - Deanna

[Chemar]

hi Deanna

those calcium.magnesium/zinc levels recommended by your naturopath seem fine in my opinion

 

however

I would strongly recommend NOT ever using magnesium oxide

[deagar]

Chemer:

As long as I'm learning...what makes oxide bad?

Thanks - Deanna

[Giselle]

Hi there, Bonnie's vitamins helped my son at first but after a few months he started reacting horribly to them. We have broken everything down and it actually makes things a lot easier as if he starts reacting to something it is much easier to decipher the culprit. Sometimes even the actual brand of vitamin makes a huge difference! I would strongly suggest that if you can you find a DAN doctor, Environmental doctor, or Integrative doctor. I know many DAN docs can treat from a distance via phone calls, faxes, and the mail. They send you requisitions for tests, you do the tests, they fly by the results.

 

Also in regards to changing your son's diet to not include the sensitivities: You might want to check online to see if the products you are using are truly free of his sensitivities and see where they might be hiding. This was such a hard thing for us. I thought I found products that were free of corn to find out they weren't. Citric Acid is made from corn. Baking powder, confectioners sugar, etc. all contain corn. Xanthum gum is the husk of a bacteria and used a lot in gluten free products but it is grown in corn sugar! Same with wheat and gluten - so much is made with them. Vanilla usually has a wheat grain alcohol in it. French fries in restaurants are fried with breaded chicken and onion rings so pick up the gluten. Bananas are part of the plantain family so include arrowroot, and latex. My son is so sensitive to wheat and corn he has to have grass fed beef! And soy fed chicken. What are your son's sensitivities? Was the test done through and IGg test?

 

Giselle

[kim]

Deanna,

 

This is a site that gives some uncomplicated information on a few supplements. Look at the left hand side of the page and you will see calcium and some other things to check out too. Calcium carbonate, if I remember right, is the one made from oyster shells and can contain lead. I try to avoid that one.

 

http://www.enzymestuff.com/magnesium.htm

 

"Magnesium chelated with amino acids is probably the most absorbable form. Less

absorbable forms include magnesium bicarbonate, magnesium oxide, and magnesium

carbonate. Magnesium oxide is probably somewhat better than magnesium carbonate

(dolomite). The newly available salts of magnesium aspartate or citrate, both known as mineral transporters, have a better percentage of absorption."

 

I'm a little confused regarding the calculations using 4 Bontech vits. They contain equal amounts of Mag. and Calcium. 10 capsules provide 300 mg. of calcium and 300 of magnesium.

 

Something that happened when my oldest son started the vits. when we hit 14, he got hyper. Heart pounding type hyper. I don't think it had anything to do with the calcium or magnesium though. I would more suspect vit. B, or something else. We backed down, and have never went that high again. He is an adult weight and will be 14 soon.

 

You may want to start with 150 mag. and 300 cal for a few days. I have a friend who, when she and her son (13 yrs. old maybe 150 lbs) both started taking 300 mag and 600 calcium, both got diarrhea at that dose. Depending on your son, you may not want that to happen, and have him start rejecting the whole idea.

 

Working up to 600 cal. and 300 mag, seems reasonable to me too.

 

The form of mag. your using does say amino acid chelate. Taurine is an amino acid, however, I'm not sure what others they may use. I'm very big on taurine for my youngest son, since he eats no meat or egg, only small amount which may be found in something like crackers.

 

Maybe do a little reading on taurine. http://www.anyvitamins.com/taurine-info.htm

 

I looked all over for calcium with no carbonate. So many are combos. I just wanted Cal citrate and vit. D. I ended up buying Citracal petites. I needed something coated, for easier swallowing for my youngest son, and at that time, bonnie's vits. didn't contain D. Citracal has some other ingredients like color added, but I could give 200 mgs. without breaking or cutting anything, it was easy to swallow, and it only had cal. citrate and D. After I bought it, the very next shipment of Bonnie's vits, said "with Vitamin D." I'm still using the Citrcal to increase the ratio (since Bonnie's vits. contain equal parts mag/cal) of what the boys get in Bonnie's vitamins, and because they take extra mag taurate, in addition to what they're getting in the vitamins.

 

Zinc is said to be best absorbed taken alone, usually at bedtime. Don't know that it's totally necessary, but thought I would mention it.

 

If you can get your reg. Dr. to test zinc, at some point, it may still be helpful.

 

I'm actually glad you asked your questions here.

 

I like having others give you their input, or have the chance to correct, something that I might get wrong!

 

But you are certainly free to PM anytime too.

 

Kim

[Chemar]

hi Deanna

 

mrsD has a really good thread going on magnesium at BT2

 

http://forums.braintalk2.org/showthread.php?t=1138

 

quoting from that thread ( I have bolded the mag oxide info)

 

There are two types of magnesium supplement...

1)inorganic salts

2)organic chelates.

 

Inorganic salts include epsom salts (magnesium sulfate), magnesium chloride

as found in delayed release forms SlowMag, and its generic equivs MagDelay and Mag64.

And Magnesium Oxide (which time has proven in studies to be next to useless).

 

The chelates are citrate, lactate, glycinate, malate, taurate..these are the most common. This is magnesium bonded to an amino acid which then allows for better absorption with less stool loosening (a common side effect).

 

Recent studies have shown that not all magnesium supplements are bioavailable --meaning absorbed well from the GI tract.

 

Magnesium lactate is the best, most completely absorbed.

Magneisum oxide is the worst, by far, and should be avoided.

 

The rest provide in intermediate level of success and if you want dual effects, some of the chelates afford those. Magnesium taurate provides taurine, which some Tourette's patients do well on. Taurine is also good for the heart.

Magnesium malate provides malic acid which Fibromyalgia patients often find helpful. Anyone with muscle issues would find this useful.

Magnesium citrate can be very laxative, but some people find this useful if they have chronic constipation.

 

I have invited mrsD to join us here when she gets some time in her mega busy schedule as her general knowledge on supplements is remarkable!

[deagar]

Thank you all so much. It is great getting so many years of research at my fingertips. A couple comments:

 

Giselle - I did the Elisact IgG test and my sons was moderately sensitive to: Cane sugar, Watermelon, Lime, Rapeseed, Canola Oil, Cottonseed Oil, Perch/Mackerel, FD&C Yellow #5, Carob, 1,2 Dichlorobenzene, Polysorbate 60, Propyl Gallate, Isopropyl Ether. I think we have been doing quite well but have on occasion found sugar in items we never would've suspected. We did find out that he could have beet sugar but not cane. The tough part was when an ingrediant listed sugar, I needed to call to see if it was cane or beet. Sometimes they didn't know.

 

Kim: We did have his blood tested for zinc levels and with 60 being low and 130 being high, he scored 64. Originally his pediatrician said he was fine. I pushed the fact that it was low and she said is would be OK to supplement but didn't give me an amount.

 

Chemer: Thanks for the threads to check into. I am taking little steps here because when I first started, it was so overwelming. I really appreciate all you knowledge and time that you put into helping others. My husband thinks I am crazy that I am so obsessed with finding out why my son has tics. He thinks everything will be fine and he will grow out of it. We do have him on Nuerontin, which helps a lot but I don't like medicating him and am also afraid that there may come a time when this so called "safer drug" won't work anymore and I don't want to go to some other drug with possible terrible side effect. The puberty years really have me worried.

 

Thanks to everyone! Deanna

[deagar]

Just got back from the "Community Pharmacy" that specializes in supplements etc. I couldn't find magnesium taurate though. Would Magnesium (as chelate and citrate) work? It also has calcium (as calcium citrate and hydroxyapatite). Is this combo OK to start with. I thought I would check before I open the bottles. Also, I picked up some Taurine which I had no recommendation for. I guess the adult dose is 1-4 tablets a day and they are 500mg. each. Any suggestions? Thanks - Deanna

[Chemar]

Hi Deanna

 

the taurine is usually ok around 500mg per day. Magnesium taurate isnt easy to find and can be ordered at http://www.vitmainshoppe.com or purchased at their local stores

 

as mentioned in that section by mrsD celated magnesium is good, but mag citrate CAN have a laxative effect

 

also remember it is good to have the calcium:magnesium ratio balanced as a 2:1

 

Hydroxyapatite is calcium phosphate, naturally found in our bones

[deagar]

In a previous quote it said that Magnesium Taurate provides taurine. So...if I am supplementing taurine seperately, would I need Magnesium Taurate or just Magnesium? Thanks - Deanna