Sweaty Sleeping

[Giselle]

Hi everyone! Hoyt's having a terrible bout right now and I had a quick question. Does anyone remember what sleeping really hot and sweaty was a symptom of? Deficiency of what? I'm kicking myself for not keeping a journal - started one today because I know I've been through this before and believe I talked about this over at BT and of course you all know what's going on over there so that's no use! Plus there's emotional lability again (hasn't had this in over a year) and he seems to be babbling a lot - mouth has to be in constant motion - always making up rhymes, noises (but not tics, just lots of chatter and songs, constant). I know it must be his neurotransmitters but not sure what it is. He had a cold upon coming back from London so I'm sure that's what prompted it but know it's something else as he hasn't been all that great since April. Any help much appreciated.

 

Giselle and Hoyt

Thanks for any help!

[Chemar]

Giselle

I seem to recall that sweaty sleep is in some way related to the liver?? but there may also be other factors

 

Do you have him on anything to boost serotonin? when my son went into a mega babble/ repeat everything/report on everything it was related to very low serotonin (we had just weaned him off the Luvox)and it improved as soon as we started the 5HTP

 

So sorry that Hoyt is having a down time and hope it resolves quickly.

 

How was London ? Were you able to find healthy food from those links I posted for you?

[Giselle]

Hi Cherie, Hoyt recently had a neurotransmitter test done and he does have low seratonin but not any lower than he's been in the past - he takes 50mg twice a day, morning and night and still way below normal. A while ago he took three 50mg but I got kinda scared (even though the doctor told me to do it) after I read your post from your doc telling not to go over 100.

 

London was awesome - I was going to go over to that post tonight and catch everyone up. I didn't find a health food store but didn't really look - the hotel we stayed in kept his bread in the freezer and toasted him slices whenever we wanted them - so sweet. We were in the West End (SoHo) the whole time and super close to japanese and chinese food - lots of rice. Plus I brought a whole suitcase of snacks, bars, rice milk, cereals. . .safe foods. When out he had grilled meats and fishes, and salads which he adores (brought his dressing). It worked out really well. We hit the ground running and saw all we could. His favorite was the Natural History Museum, mine was seeing a matinee of Les Miserables (I've seen it six times! that was my seventh - love it, had a hard time containing myself from singing along!) We also LOVED the Tower of London. I'd been there before but this time really went through every nook and cranny - my goodness graffitti from Lady Jane Grey, etc.! Neatest thing was Hoyt and I walking back from Liberty House to grab a bite to eat and whose across the street walking towards us - my husband - he was going for lunch too. I mean what a coincidence that was. I know we were both in the same city but finding him at the same time on the same corner in a city as big as London with all those people! Of course we all had lunch together. I think I told you he is working on the movie Underdog and they are doing the post-production over there so he'll be back every three weeks or so. We are going to try to finagle a visit during Christmas (very Dickensian don't ya think!).

 

I'm going to give him some seratonin before bed tonight - see if it helps.

Giselle

[Chemar]

glad your trip to London went well Giselle

 

re the 5HTP/serotonin.....it is real important to note that just because our physician felt that anything more than 100mg 5HTP per day would be too much for my son, doesnt mean that applies to everyone! If Hoyt is severely deficient in serotonin, then you really should follow your docs instructions on what to give him

 

As you well know, when the neurotrasmittors are out of sync, everything else goes that way too

[orthomolecular]

I can sweat when I sleep and I think mine has to do with my b6 deficiency. If he is low in serotonin then I think b6 is more important than 5htp. I can't use 5htp because it makes my b6 deficiency worse. The body can NOT convert tryptophan into serotonin unless there is sufficient b6.

 

I don't recommend that people who may have a b6 deficiency use 5htp. Being low in any amino acid may indicate some other problem like not breaking down proteins properly or possible a low protein diet. But if any doctor recommends 5htp you should question the logic behind that. Tryptophan has some toxicity in the brain if it is not converted into serrotonin. If the diet is sufficient in protein and digestion is not a problem, then there is no need, I think, to supplement 5htp (or tryptophan). But supplementing 5fhtp in some people can make them feel worse.

[Chemar]

Orthomolecular

 

some people who have OCD and other issues DO need 5HTP as has been proven with my own son.

(and he certainly gets enough protein and digests it properly)

 

When he doesnt have his daily 50mg of 5HTP (and yes, he has Vit B6 with it) then his OCD waxes big time. His OCD has always been a far more bothersome aspect than his tics, and 5HTP has been a real help to him

 

We have had many discussions here before about the fact that not all people tolerate 5HTP well (the FDA does not permit the sale of tryptophan OTC) and yes, this may well be related to VitB6 deficiencies and/or other metabolic issues.

 

Most 5HTP supplements do have Vit B6 added

 

as with all supplementation, I strongly recommend that anyone consult with a knowledgable healthcare practitioner because what works for some, doesnt always work for others, as I have stressed NUMEROUS times, people have very specific supplement needs related to their own unique metabolism and biochemistry

 

Giselle has had extensive neurotransmittor testing and her son is under the care of a very knowledgable physician, and so she supplements under expert guidance.

[Giselle]

Well this is so very helpful!!!! We had Hoyt's copper/zinc ratio done and found that while his copper is lower so is his zinc so his ratio is about the same as it was. The DAN doctor told me to add more zinc and B6. Everything else stayed the same - so over time I can see this effecting his seratonin (two weeks)! I am seeing the Environmental Doctor today (she's the one who fully believes in Neuroscience and their test) at two and am going to print this discussion out and see what she thinks. He gets lots of protein. Both his B6 and his seratonin are low.

Thank you both!

Giselle

[orthomolecular]

Toxicity, side effects, interactions, and contraindications

 

Tryptophan may cause some people to become drowsy, dizzy, or less alert than they are normally. This medicine may cause dryness of the mouth.

 

Symptoms of tryptophan overdose include agitation, confusion, diarrhea, fever, overactive reflexes, poor coordination, restlessness, shivering, sweating, alking or acting with excitement you cannot control, trembling or shaking, twitching, and vomiting.

 

Avoid combining l-tryptophan with other serotonin increasing agents such as 5-HTP or SSRI drugs, such as Prozac, Paxil, etc.

 

Source: http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/amino-.../tryptophan.php

[Giselle]

Hi Orthomolecular - so given this statement do you think it is because we upped his B6 (actually P5P) and he's making more seratonin himself and by giving him the 5HTP he's getting too much? I wonder - so confusing. He got 100 mg 5HTP and showed very low seratonin and was getting 120 mg of P5P at that time. The doctor upped his P5P to 180mg with the 5HTP remaining at 100 mg.

 

Giselle

[Giselle]

Hi Chemar, and yes, he most definitely needs his neurotransmitter support - both the 5HTP and the SAM-e, they make the world of difference. So difficult to know what they need and they change as they grow. We didn't give him any of his nutritionals last night and only the 5HTP. Today I'm only giving him his neuro support, again no nutritionals as per his Enviro doc - she always wants that to test his system for the nutritionals imbalances which often get masked by taking his vits. I hope this resolves quickly too as his school starts on the 5th and as he is he wouldn't be able to start - but this too will pass. Having dealt with TS now for almost 3 years I've really calmed down - bouts like this used to send me into a tizzy. I'm still doing all that I did before, testing, doc visits, questioning but there isn't the same anxiety in ME that there was before which I'm glad of. I would normally be rushing to the fridge or the pantry (anxious muncher) but haven't even wanted to this time around. He'll be fine and as always is the sunshine of my life.

Giselle

[orthomolecular]

Hi Orthomolecular - so given this statement do you think it is because we upped his B6 (actually P5P) and he's making more seratonin himself and by giving him the 5HTP he's getting too much? I wonder - so confusing. He got 100 mg 5HTP and showed very low seratonin and was getting 120 mg of P5P at that time. The doctor upped his P5P to 180mg with the 5HTP remaining at 100 mg.

 

Giselle

 

Tryptophan has a known toxicity. I don't believe that using 5htp is good advice. (Unless your doctor warned about the specific side effects of 5htp and made it clear that using 5htp requires supplementing b6 in pretty high doses. And also mentions that need for niacin too.) The people most likely to try 5htp may be those who have a possible b6 deficiency. Taking 5htp would only make their problem worse. And they may also need more niacin too. This is something that needs to be done under medical supervision.

 

You should talk to your doctor about changing your supplements. But the vitamin b6 is so much more important than the 5htp is. And I would hope niacin levels are good too.

 

I think that your child's b6 deficiency is being made worse by the 5htp. The body needs b6 to convert the tryptophan into serotonin. Like I said I don't use 5htp. I tried it and found that it caused me some of those symptoms listed on the site on my previous post, symptoms like trembling and shaking.

 

Ask you doctor why they recommended it. I would be interested in that explanation.

 

I don't understand why you are taking some amino acids (SAMe & 5htp) without any b vitamin supplements? That sounds like either bad advice or your child is due for a urine test in a day or two. Using those amino acids can cause problems if the proper b vitamins are not supplemented too. I have read that some doctors may do something like an "informal" tryptophan load test. Instead of the patient sitting in the office after consuming tyrptophan, which can be time consuming, they recommend the diet stay the same and supplement tryptophan (or 5htp) to see what metabolic waste products appear in the urine. If something like xanuthuric acid shows up then it indicates a faulty metabolism of tyrptophan into serotonin. But is your child due for a urine analysis anytime soon?

 

I did have a problem with the synthetic form of b6. That form would cause me indigestion and even somtimes acid reflux. I had tried higher doses (than 50 mg.) of p-5-p but found something else that works better. I take digestive enzymes now. I find that since taking enzymes I don't have the GI issues I used with the high doses of b6 I was taking. (Of course there were signs that my body was not absorbing the b6 too.) I honestly think my body was not able to convert the synthetic form in the active form because of lack of enzymes. I only take 50 mg. of p-5-p with each meal. This is something you might consider. It is true that some people will have a problem at some point with the synthetic form of b6. I don't know why anyone would need higher doses (than 50 mg.) of p-5-p except that there is a problem with converting that nutritent into the active form.

 

Do you think the higher doses of p-5-p are helping?

[Giselle]

Hi again, Oh, he takes many many vitamins! Not just the 5HTP and SAM-e. And yes, all under a doctor's very close supervision. I posted all that he takes somewhere here and at Brain Talk. It is definitely a mystery right now - most surely something isn't balanced but not sure what - could be that its just that he's sick as that makes everything worse. Will let everyone know what the doctor says this afternoon but am going to bring her this discussion. At the appointment we will be having a conference call with our rep at Neuroscience so that should shed some light I hope. Also going for a blood test that will look at his vitamin deficiencies.

 

He's had his 5HTP today and still constant babble - now I'm thinking he should be getting more B6 (P5P) but am going to leave him alone until I hear from the doctor what to do and at this point she said NOT to give him his nutritionals so perhaps she is going to do the provoked test you're talking about. Gosh I wish I'd paid better attention is bio chemistry eons ago!!!

 

Giselle

[satu]

he seems to be babbling a lot - mouth has to be in constant motion - always making up rhymes, noises (but not tics, just lots of chatter and songs, constant).

 

Hi Giselle!

 

I just wanted to tell that Edita was just like Hoyt in July when her OCD was very bad.

We started to boost her serotonin with 5htp, SAMe and inositol and now she is SO much better.

 

(Unfortunately we can't have the neurotransmitted tested here in Finland, but we are also supplementing under doctor's guidance.)

 

Satu

[Chemar]

Giselle

I would absolutely agree that you should continue UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF YOUR PHYSICIAN rather than simply based on input given from other people's experience

 

I stress again that different people react differently to different supplements and so IT IS NEVER A ONE SUPP SUITS ALL, not can one person's bad experience on a supplement mean that that supplement is therefore going to have a bad reaction in everyone else

 

for example, my son reacts very badly to niacin beyond the RDA in his multi, and he cannot, under any circumstances, tolerate Vit B complex

 

so just because Orthomolecular has a bad reaction to the 5HTP does not mean everyone else will! and yes, it is good to be remionded of the importance of vit B6. However, the neurotransmittor physiology is a complex one, and some people need to have their serotonin levels boosted, and may not be deficient in vitB6

 

Those of us who have years of experience with 5HTP supplementation under the care of qualified and very careful physicians know by now whether or not it is beneficial for us or our children. And we also know which other supplemtns we should or should not be giving with it

 

Caution is always a good thing, but it should never become alarmistic, especially when we have physicians with excellent track records helping us!

[orthomolecular]

 

for example, my son reacts very badly to niacin beyond the RDA in his multi, and he cannot, under any circumstances, tolerate Vit B complex

 

 

According to orthomolecular high histamine types should avoid folic acid and nicotinic acid (the niacin form that causes the flushing). Folic acid may cause problems like feelings of spaciness or depression.

 

That flush (from niacin) is simply the basophil and mast cells filling up with histamine. For some histadelics they may also need to avoid b12 which can also raise histamine levels; but this is not so clear cut as the other two nutrients. But there are specific nutrients known for lowering histamine levels.

 

But high histamine types should supplement niacinamide. This form and the other one, insolital hexi-something, will not cause any problems for a histadelic.

 

Amylase, a digestive enzyme for carbs, is also known for lowering histamine levels.

 

When a doctor does a blood test it is possible to have whole histamine levels checked.