Augmentin problem?

[Sylvia]

I posted a few weeks ago about my concern about using Augmentin with my suspected PANDAS son who in on the moderte to severe end of the autism spectrum and non-verbal, since there was some concern a few years back about Augmentin contributing to autism:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15607562

 

He was doing so well on Amoxicillin 1000mg 2 times a day that I found a doctor familiar with PANDAS and he prescribed Augmentin 500 2 times a day.

 

He has not been doing well since starting the Augmentin. Not every day, but most of the days have been at least moderately bad at school, with a couple bigger problems such as climbing on desks. Any food infraction will cause psychosis now - like he is on LSD, laughing, destructive, aggressive, etc. Today he got a small amount of mustard, and he went completely nuts.

 

I am ready to ask the doc to switch us back to Amox, but has anyone here have experience with a increase in behaviors while on Augmentin, and how long did it take to get back on track? He has been on it a little more than two weeks, and I am ready to jump ship! Is there any chance this will pass and I need to stick it through????

[Stephanie2]

A couple things come to mind based on personal experience. Both of my boys are "spectrum-y" and have pandas. Our most recent round of augmentin did the same thing to DS5. He got the crazy giggles, then when we would try to calm him down he would go nuts and get aggressive (like a drunk in a bar, quite frankly). Turns out he had yeast (per Organic Acid urine test).

 

The other thing that comes to mind is that maybe your son's ammonia has gone up (part of the problem with augmentin). You could have him tested for that and if it's elevated give him Alpha Ketoglutaric Acid to neutralize it. If you don't have a DAN doctor, they could help you with all this.

 

Honestly, though, what you are describing is screaming yeast...if you want to do a quick test to see if I am right, get some activated charcoal, give him 2 capsules when he is "acting up" and see if it calms him down within 15 minutes. If so, it is a gut thing (yeast, bacteria,etc.).

 

Best of luck!!

[Sylvia]

Thanks Stephanie, those were my first thoughts too. And drunk in a bar is a perfect description too!

 

I have been giving him AKA for a while now, but come to think of it, I am getting to the bottom of my current bottle and don't have a back up, so I have cut back on them. I didn't give him any today, and not yesterday either. I was giving 2 or 3 a day most of the summer while on the Amox, and now that he is on Augmentin when he needs it more than ever, I've cut back! OYE!

 

And he has been on Ketoconozole most of the summer as well, but there was a lapse with his prescription for almost two weeks - we just re-started a few days ago. So he may indeed have ammonia that is too high and yeast that is getting bad. One thing that helped this morning was Alka Seltzer Gold, and I gave him about 4 charcoals about an hour ago, and right now he is outside with my husband in the pool nice calm. (sure, once the hubby is home, everything calms down...)

 

Thanks for the help! I need to get back on the right schedule with AKA and the Keto.

 

 

 

A couple things come to mind based on personal experience. Both of my boys are "spectrum-y" and have pandas. Our most recent round of augmentin did the same thing to DS5. He got the crazy giggles, then when we would try to calm him down he would go nuts and get aggressive (like a drunk in a bar, quite frankly). Turns out he had yeast (per Organic Acid urine test).

 

The other thing that comes to mind is that maybe your son's ammonia has gone up (part of the problem with augmentin). You could have him tested for that and if it's elevated give him Alpha Ketoglutaric Acid to neutralize it. If you don't have a DAN doctor, they could help you with all this.

 

Honestly, though, what you are describing is screaming yeast...if you want to do a quick test to see if I am right, get some activated charcoal, give him 2 capsules when he is "acting up" and see if it calms him down within 15 minutes. If so, it is a gut thing (yeast, bacteria,etc.).

 

Best of luck!!

[EAMom]

 

 

He was doing so well on Amoxicillin 1000mg 2 times a day that I found a doctor familiar with PANDAS and he prescribed Augmentin 500 2 times a day.

 

Aside from the yeast idea, which is a good one, my thoughts...

 

 

 

Since Augmentin 500mg=500mg Amoxicillin and 125mg Clav. Acid

 

So, I see 2 changes here.

1) less Amoxcillin (from 1000mg 2x daily to 500mg 2x daily)

2) the addition of Clav. Acid (125mg 2x daily)

 

It would be interesting to know which part of the equation is responsible for the change.

 

I suppose if you think it is (1) you could add 500mg of Amoxcillin to the 500mg of Augmentin 2x daily? I know for many PANDAS kids that dose is really important, so it could be he just needs to stay on the higher amount of Amoxicillin.

[Sylvia]

I was thinking about that as well. I was thinking of adding a 500mg Amox mid day and see how he does. Or would you think it would be better to add it to one of the Augmentin doses?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

He was doing so well on Amoxicillin 1000mg 2 times a day that I found a doctor familiar with PANDAS and he prescribed Augmentin 500 2 times a day.

 

Aside from the yeast idea, which is a good one, my thoughts...

 

 

 

Since Augmentin 500mg=500mg Amoxicillin and 125mg Clav. Acid

 

So, I see 2 changes here.

1) less Amoxcillin (from 1000mg 2x daily to 500mg 2x daily)

2) the addition of Clav. Acid (125mg 2x daily)

 

It would be interesting to know which part of the equation is responsible for the change.

 

I suppose if you think it is (1) you could add 500mg of Amoxcillin to the 500mg of Augmentin 2x daily? I know for many PANDAS kids that dose is really important, so it could be he just needs to stay on the higher amount of Amoxicillin.

[Stephanie2]

Have to be honest, diflucan and keto only seem to go so far in my house. I think, like they say, the yeast morphs and becomes resistent to it. I seem to have better luck with an antifungal rotation every 4 days, keeps the yeast guessing, "what's she gonna do next?" LOL!!

[Sylvia]

Oh, so you give 4 days Keto, 4 days Diflucan? I do have a little less than a 30 day supply of Diflucan on hand. Maybe I will try that. I gotta say, that sounds brilliant!

 

Have to be honest, diflucan and keto only seem to go so far in my house. I think, like they say, the yeast morphs and becomes resistent to it. I seem to have better luck with an antifungal rotation every 4 days, keeps the yeast guessing, "what's she gonna do next?" LOL!!

[Stephanie2]

No, actually I do 4 days of herbs. For example, I am currently rotating: grapefruit seed extract, oil of oregano and biocidin (4 days each). there are many others to choose from: caprylic acid and pau d'arco come to mind. I think you can rotate after a week each, too. I know alot of ppl only do 4 days b/c then the body cannot become sensitive (ie develop an allergy) to the herbs.

 

I am actually thinking about rotating in some diflucan, though, to give the gut a break b/c all of the herbs I use also kill good gut bacteria... (but then again, they also kill strep )

[Sylvia]

Oh - we have done a lot of the herbs in the past, but never on a 4 day rotation. I have at least half the supplements and herbs known to mankind in my pantry, so I will rotate some in. I think one of the best ones for us is Olive Leaf Extract.

 

Thanks!

 

 

No, actually I do 4 days of herbs. For example, I am currently rotating: grapefruit seed extract, oil of oregano and biocidin (4 days each). there are many others to choose from: caprylic acid and pau d'arco come to mind. I think you can rotate after a week each, too. I know alot of ppl only do 4 days b/c then the body cannot become sensitive (ie develop an allergy) to the herbs.

 

I am actually thinking about rotating in some diflucan, though, to give the gut a break b/c all of the herbs I use also kill good gut bacteria... (but then again, they also kill strep )

[lynn2]

For us OLE, although very good for bacteria and viruses, actually increased yeast. We are often on the wrong end of remedies though. Grapefruit seed extract works best for us, along with Candida Clear (oil of oregano, capryllic acid, few other things.)

[Kayanne]

Please be careful about adding in OLE while on Antibiotics...I think they are contra-indicated. I have come across a few websites that mention that it can make the antibiotic ineffective. Here is one that I found with a real quick google:

 

http://www.anyvitamins.com/olive_leaf_extract.htm

 

Oh - we have done a lot of the herbs in the past, but never on a 4 day rotation. I have at least half the supplements and herbs known to mankind in my pantry, so I will rotate some in. I think one of the best ones for us is Olive Leaf Extract.

 

Thanks!

 

 

No, actually I do 4 days of herbs. For example, I am currently rotating: grapefruit seed extract, oil of oregano and biocidin (4 days each). there are many others to choose from: caprylic acid and pau d'arco come to mind. I think you can rotate after a week each, too. I know alot of ppl only do 4 days b/c then the body cannot become sensitive (ie develop an allergy) to the herbs.

 

I am actually thinking about rotating in some diflucan, though, to give the gut a break b/c all of the herbs I use also kill good gut bacteria... (but then again, they also kill strep )

[Sylvia]

Thanks Karen, I haven't given him OLE while on antibiotics, yet, but I was thinking of adding it. Thanks for the heads up! At this point he is still on Augmentin and Keto.

 

Please be careful about adding in OLE while on Antibiotics...I think they are contra-indicated. I have come across a few websites that mention that it can make the antibiotic ineffective. Here is one that I found with a real quick google:

 

http://www.anyvitamins.com/olive_leaf_extract.htm

 

Oh - we have done a lot of the herbs in the past, but never on a 4 day rotation. I have at least half the supplements and herbs known to mankind in my pantry, so I will rotate some in. I think one of the best ones for us is Olive Leaf Extract.

 

Thanks!

 

 

No, actually I do 4 days of herbs. For example, I am currently rotating: grapefruit seed extract, oil of oregano and biocidin (4 days each). there are many others to choose from: caprylic acid and pau d'arco come to mind. I think you can rotate after a week each, too. I know alot of ppl only do 4 days b/c then the body cannot become sensitive (ie develop an allergy) to the herbs.

 

I am actually thinking about rotating in some diflucan, though, to give the gut a break b/c all of the herbs I use also kill good gut bacteria... (but then again, they also kill strep )

[EAMom]

Hmm. good question. Since Amoxcillin has such a short 1/2 life I think it would be good to add it mid-day. Maybe Aug.500mg at 7am, Amoxi 500mg after school, Aug 500mg. 7pm, then Amoxi 500mg at bedtime. ? Also, maybe less stomach upset if everything is spread out? And, I wonder if by spreading out the Amoxi/Aug. to 4x daily, if you are going to get a close approximation to Augmentin XR (in dose of Amoxicillin as well as time release aspect).

 

However, giving antibiotics 4x daily is much less convenient and it also makes it harder to time the probiotics (if you are giving them.)

 

So, practically speaking, it might be a lot easier to just add 500mg of Amoxi to each 500 mg Augmentin dose. (Giving antibiotics 2x daily).

Edited September 27, 2010 by EAMom