Ammonia

[Suzan]

Hi, sorry if this is old news and possibly talked about a lot but I found this article last night and was very interested in the collection of ammonia as a neurotoxin. I'm not promoting everything he is saying about the abx treatment of lyme, just wondering about what he is saying rearding ammonia and ways to reduce this ammonia and detox to reduce the herx. Has anyone seen this or have information on this?

 

http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/lyme-fibromyalgia-discussions/lyme-facts/1222379-lyme-neuro-toxins-do-we-have-to-herx

 

This thinking goes against what is typically thought about protein consumption, amino acids and alkaline in the body and reminds me that everyone is different depending on what is going on with them. I thought dd7 had high ammonia at one point but I can't find that anywhere in her records so maybe I am mistaken. We have not been evaluated for lyme yet but I am reading up on it a lot since I am becoming convinced it is our problem as a family.

 

Susan

[MichaelTampa]

Thanks for posting this, it explained a number of things that have been going on with me. I may need to re-read, but I wish I walked away with more of a "what-to-do-about-it" regarding the ammonia. By the way, regarding the nitric oxide he refers to, oxygen therapy can help with that.

[Suzan]

Thanks for posting this, it explained a number of things that have been going on with me. I may need to re-read, but I wish I walked away with more of a "what-to-do-about-it" regarding the ammonia. By the way, regarding the nitric oxide he refers to, oxygen therapy can help with that.

 

I'm glad you found it somewhat helpful. I have re-read it tonight and I think there are ideas here that could be helpful but you really have to search to pull them out and then go do other searches to see what might be heflpul. Once I find out if we are dealing with lyme, I think I will be paying attention to some of this. But who knows, we are just at the beginning of it all and still have a long road ahead of us.

 

I am thinking of looking at the amino acids first to see if a trial with my dd helps me see an improvement. It's interesting, she tends to lean towards a low protein diet and I am always pushing the protein!

 

"L-arginine in foods and as a nutritional supplement should not be taken in the presence of ammonia. Research reveals that ammonia + arginine + manganese = increased nitric oxide (NO), up to 53% in astrocytes (brain cells), leading to increased brain swelling. When you increase localized brain swelling, the symptoms increase dramatically, and the perception of fatigue can escalate to critical. Armed with this knowledge, health care professionals would be wise to instigate a protein-poor diet for Lyme patients during treatment to minimize aggravations from arginine. Another way in which diet can be used to combat the effects of arginine is to eat foods high in the amino-acid L-Lysine, such as legumes, or one can easily purchase L-Lysine as a nutritional supplement from a health food store."

Edited September 21, 2010 by Suzan

[MichaelTampa]

Regarding the protein, I am a vegan, which is generally going to mean low-protein compared to others, and low arginine. My doctor did recommend cysteine, ornithine, lysine, and arginine, to help make growth hormones, which I was low in. And, the arginine and ornithine really gave headaches. I had taken cysteine in the form of NAC (N-acetyl cysteine) for a long time, and lysine I found a little helpful. So, the lysine and ornithine correlated with what that article said. I also take a protein supplement, and noticed when I was doing the best with lyme, I do need less of the supplement. I have read in a number of places the protein is important when fighting lyme, so perhaps more to be careful in avoiding arginine than anything else.

[Fixit]

Regarding the protein, I am a vegan, which is generally going to mean low-protein compared to others, and low arginine. My doctor did recommend cysteine, ornithine, lysine, and arginine, to help make growth hormones, which I was low in. And, the arginine and ornithine really gave headaches. I had taken cysteine in the form of NAC (N-acetyl cysteine) for a long time, and lysine I found a little helpful. So, the lysine and ornithine correlated with what that article said. I also take a protein supplement, and noticed when I was doing the best with lyme, I do need less of the supplement. I have read in a number of places the protein is important when fighting lyme, so perhaps more to be careful in avoiding arginine than anything else.

 

so you need the protein..but avoid arginine in the form of supplements???

or are you saying protein is ok in the form of food as the body breaks it down in a more natural delivery system??

 

not sure if you understand my question??

[MichaelTampa]

It sounds like avoiding arginine as a stand-alone supplement is a clear recommendation. But, for those trying to get enough protein to fight the condition, what about a high-protein diet, or even a protein supplement from an animal source high in arginine? That, I don't know, but suspect from a food source it will do much better than straight arginine. Even the 500mg arginine capsule I would take was not a lot, and eating that much from food is something I would do regularly without noticing any ill effects.

[MichaelTampa]

Just want to point out, as I am re-reading this article, the author IS recommending a low-protein diet for those with lyme, as he really feels even arginine in foods can act with ammonia to cause problems. That is in contrast to what I have heard others recommend for those with lyme, although they were likely not. However, he also suggests, alternatively, instead of a low-protein diet, one could supplement with lysine to counteract the effects of arginine, or eat a high-bean diet which contains a lot of lysine. I feel there is probably truth in all of this. I know I needed more protein supplement when my lyme was at its worst, and I know it contained substantial arginine (my supplement was from hemp). However, when lyme was at its worst, I also took additional lysine (not with the reason of canceling out arginine, but I did it), and, as a vegan, perhaps the lysine from beans is enough to cancel out the arginine I was consuming.

 

Just wanted to point that out for those who had not read the article. It is an interesting read for those who have the time.