kim

Cheri, What really burns me about this is ALL of us that had wild chicken pox are going to be at increased risk for shingles now. We needed to run into it in our environment to keep getting those boosters, so now what? If I get my boys the 2nd dose (and who knows how long immunity from that one will last), they are still going to be at increased risk for shingles. Another thing to worry about. I also notice where one of these articles said Mom's natural immunity protected their babies during the first year (like natural measles) so how is that going to work. If you have a bunch of vaxed Mom's who aren't going to pass on that immunity, do you see where it is going to be essential that all kids keep getting vaccinated? New borns would be at risk. They can't vax new borns for somethings as they won't respond with antibodies until a certain point (age). That's why this is all such a mess. If I'm sitting at the CDC and parents are getting afraid of vacciations, I'm going to KNOW the deaths that are going to result, if there's a panic. So, I guess they are choosing to add more and more, and force it legally if need be. It's scarey stuff.

They left my oldest son in the birth canel waaaay to long too. I pushed for hours. I had a nurse midwife. My mom finally said that someone should get a Dr. Our families were waiting outside of the room, my sister and husband were with me, well sorta. They had to put my husband in a chair and sit him in the closet in the room. He almost passed out after just watching me push for 6 hours. Dr. came in and said, well this one is looking straight out at us (positioned wrong) Baby was finally delivered with forceps. bruise on his shoulder and forcep marks on one cheek. Youngest was straight up and down the whole time I carried him. They kept saying he was in the V position. I told them if he was head down then he had feet on his head because he was kicking and it wasn't where you would expect to feel kicks. They did an ultra sound, and said "guess your right." They had me go in a few weeks before I was due to try to turn him. They gave me a shot that made my heart pound and pushed on my stomach to try to push him around to the head down position. Didn't work. They did a C section at due date and said the cord was looped under his but and wrapped around an ankle. That's why they were unable to turn him. I would never recommend someone letting them try to turn a baby like that now. If it were just one or the other son, you bet I would have to wonder if one of these events were involved. I wouldn't be able to help it. What I do think may have contributed to symptoms, oldest son spent so much time in the birth canal, I'm sure he had totally different gut flora than youngest son who was born C section. Youngest son had Hep B birth dose and flailed his head all over with his mouth open, oldest had jaundace and didn't get birth dose. Youngest has the eating issue, oldest doesn't.

Continued from discussion here http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?...=3251&st=15 Shingles and chickenpox (Varicella-zoster virus) http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what...es_000082_5.htm DY REVEALS IMPORTANT SIDE EFFECT OF MASS VARICELLA VACCINATION OF HEALTHY CHILDREN: Reduction in chickenpox may increase incidence of shingles. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/10/prweb83848.php http://depts.washington.edu/hhpccweb/artic...&ClinicID=1 Who should get the blood test for Varicella titer? Persons who know they have never had varicella should get the 2 doses of varicella vaccine. Persons who may have had varicella may have a varicella titer done along with the first dose of vaccine. If the varicella titer is positive they would not need a second dose. How much does the blood test varicella titer cost? The lab cost at Hall Health Primary Care Center lab is $70.00. *wonder if the Health Dept would do this cheaper than reg. Dr.? I saw one site that had a price of $14.00. http://www.who.int/vaccines/en/varicella.shtml

Carolyn. It's so nice when you drop in. You're missed! If I could choose btwn my son eating normally and tics, I know what I would choose. I'm sure my son would agree. We were just discussing what his career would be. He said (get this) "a food critic." He can name every spice, herb, temperature that you broil, braze, bake, etc. He know every single chief on the cooking channel and how often they win. He knows what knives they use. We agreed that he would have to rate on visual appearance and smell. I'm so glad that those improvements have stuck for you. Thanks for the updated docs.

Jasminky, That was really beautiful. I think I'm going to work off of your list real soon.

In light of what is coming on Wednesday, I thought this was a great article as we're going to hear the same rhetoric repeated (as I heard out of our own CDC's Julie Gerberding this morning on CNN). Same old, same old. http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/200...esponse-on.html As Cheri posted on the other thread, DO THE STUDY OF VAXED VS UNVAXED, better yet HAVE AN INDEPENDENT FIRM DO IT. Quite locking down the data and court documents. Have physicians who actually KNOW something about vaccines and a childs history, administer these things after careful medical review. This is a link to a forum where someone posted the highlights of Simpsonwood that CPS recently mentioned. Scrool down till you hit the one that cites the article by Blaylock. Simpsonwood http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...php/t83436.html

This is dated 2003 but has lots of chromosome linkage http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:V16i6...;cd=1&gl=us Of additional interest is linkage of autism and Tourette syndrome to 4p16.3-16.1. This region was recently genetically linked to SLE patients having neuropsychiatric manifestations that, like Tourette syndrome [67], have been associated with antiphospholipid antibodies [97]. Immune influence on neuronal development is well established. Families of cytokines, chemokines, signal transduction molecules, molecules of cell-cell contact, as well as developmental regulatory molecules originally characterized in the immune system have pleiotropic and overlapping functional effects on the developing immune system and the developing brain.

Colleenrn, I am under the impression that anti biotic use, at least in some instances can promote carriage rates within a community. I'm wondering if you can post a reference to the the likelyhood of having a carrier status, when anti biotics aren't used, even if it's just in an individual as opposed to a community? I would really like that info. if it's out there.

Pandas Denmark, Thank you so much for posting that study. Something that really interests me, is one article that I found that said that Heparan reduced levels of CAMkinase II. I have a particular interest in heparan/heparan sulfate. I hope you all don't mind me dropping this here. It's something that I don't want to lose so I can find it when I have the brain energy to try to figure out what it is all saying. After quicly reading throught the study PANDAS DENMARK posted, I know c-Ret phosphorylation is mentioned, and I have no idea what it is. http://jcs.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/115/23/4495 Key words: GDNF, Glycosaminoglycan, Heparan sulphate, c-Ret Glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor, GDNF, is vital to the development and maintenance of neural tissues; it promotes survival of sympathetic, parasympathetic and spinal motor neurons during development, protects midbrain dopaminergic neurons from apoptosis well enough to be a promising treatment for Parkinson's disease, and controls renal and testicular development. Understanding how GDNF interacts with its target cells is therefore a priority in several fields. Here we show that GDNF requires glycosaminoglycans as well as the already-known components of its receptor complex, c-Ret and GFR-1. Without glycosaminoglcyans, specifically heparan sulphate, c-Ret phosphorylation fails and GDNF cannot induce axonogenesis in neurons, in PC-12 cells, or scatter of epithelial cells. Furthermore, exogenous heparan sulphate inhibits rather than assists GDNF signalling. The involvement of heparan sulphates in GDNF signalling raises the possibility that modulation of heparan expression may modulate signalling by GDNF in vivo. http://ajprenal.physiology.org/cgi/content...8/1/F142?ck=nck Heparin exerts an antiproliferative effect in smooth muscle cells, and the Ca2+/calmodulin-dependent protein kinase (CaMK) signaling pathway is heparin sensitive. Here, we report that transfection with a truncated 326-amino acid fragment of CaMK-II increases basal activity of CaMK-II in mesangial cells. Ionomycin increased CaMK-II activity in both transfected and untransfected cells, with a concomitant increase in activated Ca2+/calmodulin. Heparin (1 µg/ml), but not chondroitin or dermatan sulfate, significantly attenuated both serum- or ionomycin-induced CaMK-II activity, and attendant c-fos mRNA expression, but did not affect upstream Ca2+/calmodulin. Autophosphorylation of Thr286 generates an autonomously active CaMK-II. Both serum and ionomycin increased phosphorylation at this site and increased CaMK-II activity in antiphosphothreonine immunoprecipitates. Heparin (1 µg/ml) did not inhibit phosphorylation of Thr286 (although much higher concentrations did). Replacement of Thr286 with Asp produces a constitutively active mutant that was insensitive to ionomycin but was inhibited by heparin maximally at 1 µg/ml. These results suggest that heparin at physiological concentrations acts at or downstream of CaMK-II to suppress its activity independent of an effect on autophosphorylation

I think Judy has a terribly important thread here and I think we have gotten off topic. If her grandson had strep at the time he had the awful reaction to the vaccine that was given in error, that could be a very important point. I get the impression that it is not clearly known, but Judy strongly suspects that he was ill at the time, with evidence of at least a low grade fever documented. I hope Judy returns to her thread! I will post some varicella articles on another thread.

Colleen, It's been a while since I was really looking at all of this, but my impression is that it is important to have that passive exposure to keep the shingles at bay. I'm trying to think how it would work, if the antibodies are very low. I know the shingles vax is just a high dose of varicella. I'll see if i can find something on it

Calicat http://www.emedicine.com/med/TOPIC2184.HTM The incubation period for strep throat is 2-4 days. Sudden onset of sore throat, malaise, fever, and headache occurs. Younger patients may also develop nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pain. I don't believe that we can ever really keep our kids free from exposure to strep. I know others have had the whole family tested and found someone to be positive with no symptoms, so in a repeat PANDAS symptom situation, it would probably be a good idea. Did I read somewhere, it can even be found in the family dog? If you really wanted to know who the carrier was, I guess you would have to have them tested before anti biotic use. My youngest son tested positive all of the time, with no obvious symptoms. Hope that helps a little?

Colleenrn, You touched on something that nags at me. My boys have each had one dose of varicella. I have posted about this before. I do worry about the boys getting the real thing now at ages of 11 and 15 or even older. They know that some children are developing shingles after 1 immunization. If these kids are not being exposed to the wild form of varicella as it's being wiped out by immunization and they are not being routinely "boosted" and keeping levels of antibodies up, they may end up with shingles. I believe that is part of the reason for the 2nd immunization recommendation. They are afraid it's going to affect the older population too. They KNEW this and they did it anyway. Then they developed the shingles vaccine. But the Dr.s don't want to stock this vaccine which requires refrigeration, is expensive and so far they aren't moving a lot of it. It will take a while longer I suspect, before some of our older population (some with cancer, heart disease, diabetes etc.) will develope shingles and serious concequences before the shingles vax gets real popular. Another monster created. I suspect you know this, but many readers here may not. Many people ignorant on the topic of immunization (as I surely once was!) that are critical of people who question a parents decision not to vaccinate, don't either. http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/M...rShingElder.htm Everyone is afraid to discuss this, as there can and i believe will be serious fall out from a mass reduction in vaccination rates. Most of these diseases were meant to be contracted in childhood. Also, I worry about reactions in our children, as we really don't know how wild caught infections affect them either. Could you tell us if your daughter showed any increase in neurological symptoms with the shingles outbreak?

Tami, I'm pretty sure that there isn't an adjuvant in varicella. MMR either. From what i remember, I'm quite sure with the tetanus booster (TD which still contains full thimerosal) that the D is added for an additional immune response, so the D virus is used as an adjuvant of sorts in that particular shot. Since these vaccines bypass the mucosal barrier and all of the natural defense mechanisms, though, if there is unexcreted metals accumulated in various tissue, I suppose you could have additional problems that would go for wild caught illness too.

Judy, Do you think that was the onset of the strep, at the same visit? Was a culture or anything done at that time? Also, you mentioned the ANA antibodies with a lupus underline. Had he had evidence of autoimmune issues? When my son was ill recently, with strep and what we are assuming was an intestinal viral illness, he exhibited symptoms that would be along PANDAS lines. He was given an anti biotic. The symptoms were only for one day. I don't know which caused it. Since varicella is viral and the anti biotic is helping, do you think his problem is related to the strep or a combo of strep and the vaccine? BTW, it was a single varicella vax, not a MMRV combo right?

Judy, I still have a hard time breathing when I look at vaccine issues. It's really had to be stripped of the comfort of thinking that everything that's done is throughly tested and is right for our kids. Personally, I think the wild form of some of these illnesses can trigger problems for some of our kids too. We have seen children who have had an injury or another illness develope problems shortly after too. If we have a genetic propensity for an illness to cause neuro problems though, what is the wisdom in giving our babies with immature (still developing brains) nervous systems all of these shots? I know where Jasminsky is coming from (if you didn't get that impression from my other response ). Thanks for sharing your experience here Judy. You are an amazing Grandma!

Judy, Forgive me if I missed this part, but did your Corbin have strep at the time the vaccine was given, or very near the same time?

Now Jas, dear, you really must not believe everything that you read on the internet. Of course none of these things have anything to do with anything. It's just a tic. And for the rare, rare, rare, person that has a reaction, well just think of how many others will live on. They are thinking that genetic screening may help to determine what drug will be effective or safer for which patient, but why even bother with this line of thinking where vaccines are concerned? Everyone has to have ALL of them. The more they can fit in one vial in one day the better. You don't want kids to get stuck too many times, and all of that lost work time for Mom's, could hurt the economy. No, it's much better to mix them all together. In fact some may have gotten the newer MMR with the varicella mixed right in! Gee, my babies had to get stuck with two separate shots for that, although my youngest did get them both in the same day, so at least I didn't have to make two trips. I think I read where they had something like 4 children from the same Peds office (involved in the clinical trial for that shot) develope autism, but really, what's four children? You could not prove that it was tied to the vaccine, so what's the worry? Was probably a coincidence. You know kids pick up viruses all the time in the office when they go to get their shots. It doesn't really matter if there are autoimmune issues galore in the family either! All the more reason to keep up on your shots! Recent antibiotic use, a little fever, sniffles, eating, sleeping, peeing, hyper, orange from head to toe, sweet cravings, none of it means anything. Gotta keep these kids healthy. They did change the DTP to the Dtap to make this already safe safe safe shot even safer. Who could fault them for a little brain problem with the old shot. Look at the coughs that were avoided. Now just because these (the ones listed, that jump right out at me) are issues that DAN! Dr. focus on, does not mean that other REAL Dr.s should consider them. It's just a tic! I'm really happy to see that the article you posted didn't mention the rediculous notion that mercury injections may have increased your risks of tics. I think the CDC said something about further research for that problem (it's probably nothing). I know if they think there is anything to that, they'll get right on it, and compensate the children that had genes that made them prone to problems excreting it. Yea, I'm sure they'll be on that any day now. *note......I am well aware that pertussis can be a serious issue for some infants, especially those under 1 year of age. Mitochondrial encephalomyopathies Sulfite oxidase deficiency Systemic lupus erythematosus Homocystinuria Pyruvate carboxylase deficiency Hypoparathyroidism, pseudohypoparathyroidism Other infections - Pertussis, diphtheria, varicella Vitamin B-12 deficiency in infants Manganese Organophosphate poisoning

Cheri, I ran across this today. think this is the the study that was referred to in the other article? http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summa...86-22839413_ITM Genetic polymorphisms in biotranstormation enzymes in Crohn's disease: association with microsomal epoxide hydrolase. (Inflammatory Bowel Disease). Aim: To assess the association of Crohn's disease with genetic polymorphisms in cytochrome P450 lAl, glutathione S-transferases mu-1, pi-1, and theta-1, and epoxide hydrolase.

Faith, This will give you a lot of info. I would take it really slowly and try to keep it specific to your son or any conditions that you might suspect run in either side of the family. If something catches your eye, seach it with the word tourette syndrome or autism attached. That's all i did when we recently had a post about the rash associated with hot tubs/baths. Looked up the name of bacteria and attached the words tourette syndrome. Sometimes something pops right up. I cleared some room in my inbox. I have abused those messages so badly. I sincerely apologize to anyone that this applies to. I have another group that has a few people that i have become cyber "close to" and a couple of e-mail buddies that provide me with such valuable info, and I'm negleting everyone! BTW, just quickly, the article I referrenced possibly suggests that this type of tic may serve a purpose. Possibley even protective? I wish i had time to go into more detail (or maybe not ). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_factor Example of growth factors Individual growth factor proteins tend to occur as members of larger families of structurally and evolutionarily related proteins. There are dozens and dozens of growth factor families such as TGF-beta (transforming growth factor-beta), BMP (bone morphogenic protein), neurotrophins (NGF, BDNF, and NT3), fibroblast growth factor (FGF), and so on. Several well known growth factors are: Transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β) Granulocyte-colony stimulating factor (G-CSF) Granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor (GM-CSF) Nerve growth factor (NGF) Neurotrophins Platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF) Erythropoietin (EPO) Thrombopoietin (TPO) Myostatin (GDF-8) Growth differentiation factor-9 (GDF9) Acidic fibroblast growth factor (aFGF or FGF-1) Basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF or FGF-2) Epidermal growth factor (EGF) Hepatocyte growth factor (HGF)

I am 90% certain that my boys inherited a genetic mutation that resulted in a decreased cellular expression of Heparan sulfate. I was trying to find out how this might be related to interactions with strep. It appears to me that the amt. of heparan sulfate on the host cells (the host being my son's) had some effect on what type of strep they may or may not be most be most susceptable to, as heperan sulfate will mediate the interaction btwn the ability of strep to invade a cell or remain extracellular. Some of this info is older, and I'm keeping in mind the the article that I posted that seemed to say that some strep has developed the ability to survive in the phagocytes. These are a type of white blood cell that are meant to eat bacterial cells and other garbage from what I gather (tricky hau?). Heparan sulfate is a sugar chain attached to a core protein and is known as a (Gag) or glu- co- sa- min- o -gly- can. I asked about this on another thread, but I don't think anyone really knows what I'm talking about, so I'm trying to simplify here. Group A strep expresses a virulence factor known as an M protein. Some strep is encapsulated with hyaluronan which is a substance that is also found in the human body/brain (again tricky bacteria). The first study appears to says that the amt. and type of GAG expressed on the cell surface will make you more or less susceptable to different strains of strep (heperan sulfate will mediate btwn the host cell and certain strains of strep). What I would really like to know is if any autoimmune response to the capsular component hyaluronan of GAS (group a strep) has ever been studied as causing PANDAS symptoms. Does anyone have time to look for this info? It seems as if strain of strep that have this type of capsule would be a prime suspect. If my guys express less heparan sufate because of their genes, it looks to me like this would apply to them, which would explain why they didn't show PANDAS symptoms, but DID have repeated strep infections that required 3 rounds of antibiotics in some instances, but no symptoms of an autoimmune/brain response (except clearly noted during my youngest sons last strep infection, which seems to have coincided with an intestinal viral infection (so which one was the culprit?) I would also like to know if any of the clearly PANDAS kids here, exhibit PANDAS flares with some culture confirmed strep infections but not others. Anyway I guess I'll post as breif of excerps here as possible and see if anyone has any opinions. I probably got too technical again, but I just don't know anyway around it. http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlPr...1/rheumatic.xml Pathogenesis of GAS infection In the log phase of growth, streptococci divide approximately every 20 minutes. Only when they do so are they rapidly killed by penicillin. When phagocyted, they are also readily killed because they are highly susceptible to the antibacterial action of oxygen radicals and other antibacterial substances within phagosomes of white blood cells. Thus, streptococcal infection is principally extracellular, and its virulence relates primarily to resistance to phagocytosis and subsequent invasiveness and toxin production. Strains deficient in both the surface M protein and hyaluronate capsule are killed by phagocytes. Because capsular hyaluronate is virtually non-antigenic whereas M protein is exquisitely type-specific, immunologic protection against virulent strains is primarily dependent upon the action of homologous type anti-M antibodies ( 5 ). The multiplicity of M types therefore accounts for the repetitive nature of GAS infections and thus for recurrent bouts of RF .Resistance to phagocytosis is further enhanced by several anti-complementary effects of M protein, and by its precipitation of fibrinogen on the bacterial surface. In addition, the hyaluronate capsule itself disrupts connections of epithelial cells and promotes invasion of deeper tissues ( 6 ). The hyaluronate capsule also resists internalization of the organism by epithelial cells ( 7 ) or by skin keratinocytes ( 8 , 9 ). Benign, persistent throat carriage may result from epithelial cell internalization of less encapsulated strains where they may grow more slowly and be less readily eradicated by penicillin http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/...33.2003.03600.x Several microbial pathogens have been reported to interact with glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) on cell surfaces and in the extracellular matrix. Here we demonstrate that M protein, a major surface-expressed virulence factor of the human bacterial pathogen, Streptococcus pyogenes, mediates binding to various forms of GAGs. Hence, S. pyogenes strains expressing a large number of different types of M proteins bound to dermatan sulfate (DS), highly sulfated fractions of heparan sulfate (HS) and heparin, whereas strains deficient in M protein surface expression failed to interact with these GAGs. Soluble M protein bound DS directly and could also inhibit the interaction between DS and S. pyogenes. Experiments with M protein fragments and with streptococci expressing deletion constructs of M protein, showed that determinants located in the NH2-terminal part as well as in the C-repeat region of the streptococcal proteins are required for full binding to GAGs. Treatment with ABC-chondroitinase and HS lyase that specifically remove DS and HS chains from cell surfaces, resulted in significantly reduced adhesion of S. pyogenes bacteria to human epithelial cells and skin fibroblasts. and Together with the finding that exogenous DS and HS could inhibit streptococcal adhesion, these data suggest that GAGs function as receptors in M protein-mediated adhesion of S. pyogenes. This is a study that connects the hyaluronan part of what i'm talking about. Remember the ECM ia just referring to the extra cellular matrix wich is a web like area found just out side of a cell. http://www.researchcrossroads.com/index.ph...rant_id=2234120 The extracellular matrix (ECM) of the brain is rich in hyaluronan and hyaluronan-binding molecules, suggesting that hyaluronan is the pivotal element of the brain ECM. However, being a pure polysaccharide, functional studies on hyaluronan suffered from the lack of molecular tools to directly manipulate its expression. Cloning of mammalian hyaluronan synthases has enabled to conduct studies aimed at directly addressing this issue. In this proposal, we will employ the Cre/lox-based conditional knockout technology to disrupt the hyaluronan synthase Has2 in each of the three major neural cell types, thereby generating mice in which hyaluronan synthesis is abolished specifically in respective cell types. In the first aim, we will disrupt hyaluronan synthesis in neural stem cells. I am trying to find the results of this study, but time is being eaten alive with all of this!

Had to send this along...gee I'm glad and reassured the CDC is on this The Next Big Autism Bomb: Are 1 in 50 Kids Potentially At Risk? by David Kirby http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/...mb_b_93627.html Posted March 26, 2008 | 09:30 PM (EST) Read More: Autism, Autism Mitochondria, Autism Thimerosal, Autism Vaccine Mercury, Autism Vaccines, Breaking Living News On Tuesday, March 11, a conference call was held between vaccine safety officials at the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, several leading experts in vaccine safety research, and executives from America's Health Insurance Plans, (the HMO trade association) to discuss childhood mitochondrial dysfunction and its potential link to autism and vaccines.

Is it possible that our kids feel the need to shake their head. Much of this makes sense to me. http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17920573 Vagus nerve stimulation increases norepinephrine concentration and the gene expression of BDNF and bFGF in the rat brain. growth factors are involved in much of what I have been studying, so this really caught my eye.

Sara, I had realized I forgot the link so I edited the last post. It's there now, sorry. Sara, I don't have any experience here so I hope others will help out. I'm not sure that the reg. test that they typically do to check iron levels is adequate. You may need a more sensitive test. Just gather as much information as you can, so your Dr. see's the necessity of whatever testing you want. It's so helpful when they see things in writing. I'm finding more and more that WE have to EDUCATE them on this condition.

Sara, Hi and welcome. I'm not sure that this means anything, but look at the two articles on this page. One is the 3rd study down edit (opps forgot the link) http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:10708/pmid Ferritin levels and their association with regional brain volumes in Tourette's syndrome. Daniel A Gorman, Hongtu Zhu, George M Anderson, Mark Davies, Bradley S Peterson RESULTS: Ferritin and serum iron were significantly lower in the Tourette's syndrome subjects, although still within the normal range. the other one is the 5th I think Effect of iron restriction on outer membrane protein composition of Pseudomonas strains studied by conventional and microchip electrophoresis. Ildikó Kustos, Márton Andrásfalvy, Tamás Kustos, Béla Kocsis, Ferenc Kilár Is it possible that your daughter is low on iron/ferrin and that's why the Pseudomonas aeruginosa are picking on her? Find everything you can on these subject before you ask a Dr. about it. I think many have a tendency to "blow you off" if it wasn't their idea (not all...some are wonderful!). I may be totally off base here too. I just searched a couple of things quickly and this popped up. Looked reasonable to investigate a little further?