Could a herx look like this

[dut]

Hi - Our dd had an amoxy rash 2 years ago, 10 days into an amox course for a PANDAS 1st recognised episode. She presented with pin prick spots and some full blown hives that all itched. We know it wasn't an allergy as she was prick, sub cutaneous and oral challenged tested and all was clear.

 

She was given a 14 day course of Augmentin for another flare and last night, day 9, she started with hives that by this morning had gotten much worse and by noon was getting swelling of arms and her elbows and knees had got very hot and swollen too, sort of coalesced hives.

 

I think we're dealing with an allergy this time but.. could a herx ever look like this?

 

She also took 3 days full dose zith for the 1st days of her augmentin course.

 

Real bummer is that her mood and fears seemed to be really responding to the Augmentin and with the exception of night time had virtually resolved in the 9 days.

 

Thanks for any ideas...

Edited September 6, 2010 by dut

[justinekno]

My son got a rash on his arms when he first starting taking zithromax although it wasn't itchy and he had no swelling. He went off of the zith and it subsided. We are now back on zith and augmentin and the rash is back. We are attributing it to a herx like reaction as he has no other symptoms of allergy and the intensity of it tends to cycle (although it never completely disappears). Our dr said the key to knowing a herx is if it cycles and doesn't stay constant. Maybe some well versed lyme moms will be more helpful?

 

Hi - Our dd had an amoxy rash 2 years ago, 10 days into an amox course for a PANDAS 1st recognised episode. She presented with pin prick spots and some full blown hives that all itched. We know it wasn't an allergy as she was prick, sub cutaneous and oral challenged tested and all was clear.

 

She was given a 14 day course of Augmentin for another flare and last night, day 9, she started with hives that by this morning had gotten much worse and by noon was getting swelling of arms and her elbows and knees had got very hot and swollen too, sort of coalesced hives.

 

I think we're dealing with an allergy this time but.. could a herx ever look like this?

 

She also took 3 days full dose zith for the 1st days of her augmentin course.

 

Real bummer is that her mood and fears seemed to be really responding to the Augmentin and with the exception of night time had virtually resolved in the 9 days.

 

Thanks for any ideas...

[sf_mom]

We also had a similar reaction when our son went on Amoxicillin for the first time. We had no idea of possible PANDAS/Lyme at the time. We are currently testing him to see if it is a true allergy. You can get a script from your Dr., Lab Corp can run the test (penicillin 4 panel).

 

Our daughter just started Alinia/Azithromycin combo 5 days ago and she has fever blisters all along the top of her lip and I'm assuming herxing. Thankfully, we are seeing out LLMD in another 9 days review all the herxing symptoms: inclusive of mood liability, night waking/nap waking, intensifying of 'Livedo Reticularis', bright green poop within 24 hours of starting new combo, brain fog/spacey..... we need to call her several times to get her attention, not wanting to engage with others.

 

-Wendy

[smartyjones]

Our dr said the key to knowing a herx is if it cycles and doesn't stay constant.

 

in naturopathic medicine there is a reaction similar to a herx called a 'healing crisis'. it is usually attributed to a revving up of the immune system due to the treatment and thus, the body healing kicks in and heals the infection or whatever. the symptoms one feels are the effects of the immune system.

 

my son has been experiencing what i believe to be this reaction -- be it due to his own immune system or release of toxins or whatever -- due to an antiviral we introduced about 8 weeks ago.

his integrative MD is certain this is what we are experiencing.

 

sf mom told me a number of weeks ago -- 'you will know' when i asked about a herx. boy, was she right. in the past, i've wondered if we maybe we could be seeing some type of increase in symtpoms due to healing. now, it has at times been a CRISIS. however, it has been a cycling of behaviors. we've seen some things we've never seen -- intense contamination fears resulting in no food or drink intake. and some things with increased intensity --- such as deliberate punching. dh has been worried, but i've seen these behaivors come for a few days and then leave.

 

in the couple of weeks, lasting a week, when eating issues were here, he had a varying fat lip. i was concerned it was an allergic reaction -- his breathing was always fine. DR saw it and said he was confident it was not troublesome and saw it as a good sign. i know it really sounds backwards when you are looking at your child with troublesome symptoms. ds had mouth sores and bumps when first presented with symptoms -- drs all said it was unrelated but i knew it had to be. during these weeks, he's had varying lip bumps and reddness and clearing.

 

a herx is nothing i'd like to experience without a professional to consult and check out what's happening and advise, b/c for us it has at times been intense and troubling. however, i believe now he's pulling out of it and am hopeful we're on a good road.

 

SFMOM -- what did you write recently about white blood cells and red blood cells and their times of regeneration? i can't seem to find it. thanx.

Edited September 7, 2010 by smartyjones

[sf_mom]

It takes 90 days to regenerate WBC and 120 to regenerate RBC. With Lyme its thought to live in the WBC wall 'I forget' how it was specifically worded. 12 weeks can be a huge turning point for children being treated for Lyme. Babesia lives in the inner cell of the RBC and bursts out when it multiples and then finds a new RBC to reside. It can only be killed when it transfers from cell to cell.

 

Hopefully that is what you were referencing. Seems like you were experiencing some herxing... it can be scary.

 

-Wendy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our dr said the key to knowing a herx is if it cycles and doesn't stay constant.

 

in naturopathic medicine there is a reaction similar to a herx called a 'healing crisis'. it is usually attributed to a revving up of the immune system due to the treatment and thus, the body healing kicks in and heals the infection or whatever. the symptoms one feels are the effects of the immune system.

 

my son has been experiencing what i believe to be this reaction -- be it due to his own immune system or release of toxins or whatever -- due to an antiviral we introduced about 8 weeks ago.

his integrative MD is certain this is what we are experiencing.

 

sf mom told me a number of weeks ago -- 'you will know' when i asked about a herx. boy, was she right. in the past, i've wondered if we maybe we could be seeing some type of increase in symtpoms due to healing. now, it has at times been a CRISIS. however, it has been a cycling of behaviors. we've seen some things we've never seen -- intense contamination fears resulting in no food or drink intake. and some things with increased intensity --- such as deliberate punching. dh has been worried, but i've seen these behaivors come for a few days and then leave.

 

in the couple of weeks, lasting a week, when eating issues were here, he had a varying fat lip. i was concerned it was an allergic reaction -- his breathing was always fine. DR saw it and said he was confident it was not troublesome and saw it as a good sign. i know it really sounds backwards when you are looking at your child with troublesome symptoms. ds had mouth sores and bumps when first presented with symptoms -- drs all said it was unrelated but i knew it had to be. during these weeks, he's had varying lip bumps and reddness and clearing.

 

a herx is nothing i'd like to experience without a professional to consult and check out what's happening and advise, b/c for us it has at times been intense and troubling. however, i believe now he's pulling out of it and am hopeful we're on a good road.

 

SFMOM -- what did you write recently about white blood cells and red blood cells and their times of regeneration? i can't seem to find it. thanx.

[Fixit]

Our dr said the key to knowing a herx is if it cycles and doesn't stay constant.

 

in naturopathic medicine there is a reaction similar to a herx called a 'healing crisis'. it is usually attributed to a revving up of the immune system due to the treatment and thus, the body healing kicks in and heals the infection or whatever. the symptoms one feels are the effects of the immune system.

 

my son has been experiencing what i believe to be this reaction -- be it due to his own immune system or release of toxins or whatever -- due to an antiviral we introduced about 8 weeks ago.

his integrative MD is certain this is what we are experiencing.

sf mom told me a number of weeks ago -- 'you will know' when i asked about a herx. boy, was she right. in the past, i've wondered if we maybe we could be seeing some type of increase in symtpoms due to healing. now, it has at times been a CRISIS. however, it has been a cycling of behaviors. we've seen some things we've never seen -- intense contamination fears resulting in no food or drink intake. and some things with increased intensity --- such as deliberate punching. dh has been worried, but i've seen these behaivors come for a few days and then leave.

 

in the couple of weeks, lasting a week, when eating issues were here, he had a varying fat lip. i was concerned it was an allergic reaction -- his breathing was always fine. DR saw it and said he was confident it was not troublesome and saw it as a good sign. i know it really sounds backwards when you are looking at your child with troublesome symptoms. ds had mouth sores and bumps when first presented with symptoms -- drs all said it was unrelated but i knew it had to be. during these weeks, he's had varying lip bumps and reddness and clearing.

 

a herx is nothing i'd like to experience without a professional to consult and check out what's happening and advise, b/c for us it has at times been intense and troubling. however, i believe now he's pulling out of it and am hopeful we're on a good road.

 

SFMOM -- what did you write recently about white blood cells and red blood cells and their times of regeneration? i can't seem to find it. thanx.

 

So are you saying herxing can take as long as 8-12 weeks? not just a week or 2

 

also..seems impossible..but could i see a herx reacation from grapefruit seed extract...gave ds 3 drops this morning??

Edited September 7, 2010 by Fixit

[sf_mom]

I thought this was a particularly good discription:

 

 

An Inconvenient Truth: The Herxheimer Reaction

 

The Herxheimer reaction is a phenomenon where the die-off of bacteria makes symptoms worse before they get better (1)(5)(14). The Lyme bacterium is especially obnoxious in how bad it makes a patient feel when antibiotics are doing their job! Toxins are produced by the immune system in response to the Lyme die-off and increase inflammation wherever the Lyme is hiding, and also create fatigue, headache, fever, etc. as the toxins get dumped into the bloodstream (5)(14). Whatever symptoms exist often worsen, new symptoms appear, and the increased fatigue can be crushing. Even psychiatric or emotional symptoms such as depression or irritability worsen.

 

Helping the patient tolerate the die-off reaction or “herx” is important. LLMDs recommend a variety of methods for “detoxing” to help lessen the herx effects (1)(5)(8)(9). Drinking a lot of fluids is at the top of everyone’s list. Some herbals and other detox supplements work by binding with the toxins in the gut so that they can pass out of the body.

 

In Dr. Joe Jemsek’s words:

 

The ‘toxins’ to which I refer are termed pro-inflammatory cytokines and are produced by T lymphocytes and which include IL-2, TNF, and IL-6 primarily…these pro-inflammatory cytokines tend to leach into fat and probably vascular tissues and circulate in blood where they pass thru the liver and are passed into the hepatobiliary enterohepatic circulation cycle, i.e. collected in bile and resorbed by the gut…the idea is for the resin to bind them in the gut and then pass out thru the gut…I am not a huge fan of this but will support it in pts who note benefit, so long as I am certain they are not binding meds in the gut…(15)

The severity of the herx during treatment tends to be proportional to the bacterial load in the body (1). As the bacterial load lowers, so does the herx (5). If the herx is too severe, the doctor may reduce the dose of medication for a while, and then try to go back up. Treatment then takes longer, and too low a dose may be ineffective, so a balance must be found between the herx being tolerable and treatment being adequately effective.

 

It is a job of the LLMD to help the patient distinguish between a herx and other possible side effects of the medications or allergic reactions.

 

The build-up of toxins from the herx response over long periods can become a stressor on the immune system and counter-productive to getting well. Some LLMDs recommend “wash out” periods or treatment “holidays” to allow for effective detoxification (5)(9).

 

In effective treatment, the die-off reaction is the worst when starting treatment, and also when starting a new antibiotic, and then lessens over time (5). Lyme symptoms should start to improve as the herxing lessens (5).

[dut]

hi - quick update. we may be dealing with a serum sickness reaction, similar to allergy but more involved, joints etc and different process (I don't really get it).

 

Dd is having difficulty walking 'cos of the pain in ankles but at least the hives aren't as bad.

 

Our ped also wondered, though, if it could be a herx reaction.

 

thanks for the responses