Help with some info please

[junkyardjean]

We just got results back from stool/saliva test. Dd5 has been physically sliding for the few months and the new ND thought it was worth exploring food intolerances.

 

The results are in, and I'm surprised...

 

Negative an all food intolerances

Yeast - heavy growth

Enterococcus avium - heavy growth

Intestinal SIgA - 16. Reference normal 400-880

No other parasites/ova

All other panels negative

 

Thoughts are that the enterococcus avium has taken over her gut, leading to further yeast overgrowth and very low SIgA levels. Suggested abx ASAP to clear it out, and IV nutrition to get her strength up as she tires after about an hour of play.

 

but when we met with ped (the main stream is where we get the abx from), he scoffed at results and stated "we need to think scientifically". He asked if she has diarrhea - she doesn't, but has ongoing stomach pain, grey skin, dark circles, and even after eating 2500 calories a day for three weeks, has lost a pound (she only weighs 30 lbs). When I asked him his response was - if she doesn't have diarrhea, then she's fine - give her more boost, she needs more calories... WTH - she eats nonstop....

 

I need some experience from the board - has anyone dealt with this avium thing. Is it the root, or because she has no diarrhea, we can move on?

 

I asked him to test for the avium in mainstream - blood and rectal swab would do it, but once he heard ND, he glazed over, referenced hocky science, then focused on more calories.

 

Another up and down day...

Edited August 24, 2013 by junkyardjean

[junkyardjean]

Made an error - thought I better put exact wording...

 

No ova or parasites seen. + yeast - many. (This is under ova & parasites, x1 (stool))

(The list below is under bacterial stool culture)

Heavy growth mixed gram negative rods/flora

Heavy growth mixed gram positive rods/flora

Mixed flora consists predominantly of nontoxigenic E. coli - heavy growth and enterococcus avium - heavy growth

No salmonella, shigella, E. coli o157, yersinia, vibrio, aero moans, proteus or pseudomonas isolated

 

Only other "off" result is the total intestinal SIgA (stool) is 16. - ref range 400-880

 

 

Any info/ideas/advice is badly needed - we are really struggling right now

 

TIA...

[PowPow]

Is this a stool or saliva test?

 

 

 

I believe e.avium is also a typically vancomycin resistant bug.

Did they do a sensitivity on the growth to determine susceptibility to antibiotics?

I do not think this can be ignored AT ALL,.

Was this done by some "hokey" lab? If so, ask him to repeat it, at a lab he is comfortable with. (I am using his term "hokey" not inferring anything about your choice of lab!)

Ask him if he would ignore such a positive finding on the stool culture of his 5 year old!

 

read about VRE species here: . http://www.nphl.org/VancomycinResistantEnterococcus-Iwen.pdf.pdf

you will see the e.avium is quite rare, really. in humans, anyway. (I bet lots of birds have it )

 

my child had a VRE (e.faecium) UTI. Treatment with Linezolid was rough. Major dietary and medicine changes for 2 weeks pre med, 2 week post and during administration.

Edited August 24, 2013 by PowPow

[tpotter]

Just found this reference when googling...interesting that they say that enterrococcous avium was previously referred to as Group Q Strep!

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21667269

[junkyardjean]

Thank you for te info!

 

It was a Diagnos techs saliva/stool. Ped seemed to think it was not a valid result and ND was taking us for a financial ride. I'm not so sure, as we were actually looking for ideas around food trying to address her weight loss. I'm thinking that if ND was "padding" the report somehow, the food intolerances would have shown as we could have bought those products from his clinic.

 

Instead e. avium shows, he suggests abx (which NDs philosophically stay away from), but because she's in such a rough place, he's concerned if the e.avium manages to get into a different part of her body, or if she gets exposed to something else, she won't be able to fight it off and will get bad quickly.

 

From reading last night - I'm thinking overgrowth leading to malabsorption. Until we get the overgrowth taken care of, we can feed her all we want, but we are not going to get anywhere. We see our family doc on Monday and I will talk with him to see if he will help with next steps. The ND suggested linizolid to cover the vre just in case. Diagnos techs did not indicate in their report if it was the resistant strain or not.

 

PowWow - can you tell me more about your experience with it?

 

For ONCE, I wish we could walk in to a docs office and not feel beat up, confused, and having to spend 25 hours of research time to get anywhere....

 

Thank goodness for this board

[tpotter]

Doesn't sound like the ND is padding anything, give the fact that something you weren't looking for showed up, and certainly wasn't something that he could treat himself, and also recommended a form of tx he normally stays away from. But, also sounds to me like ped has no clue what to do, either.

 

Can you go to a gastronenterologist? Do you think there's a good one in the area?

 

Also, we are seriously treating gut issues at this time with alternative tx, and having good luck. PM me if you want more info, but it does sound like abx may be warranted.

[SingMom]

Hi jukyardjean, I was googling low SigA and found your post. I am trying to improve my boys (6, 8yo) SigA which has been persistently low for well over a year, despite various treatments, ABx, GAPS diet, food elimination. Our latest stool test also shows extremely high enterococcus and strep, and they are identified as quite problematic (Bioscreen test from Australia) vs Doctors Data which lists under good flora.

 

Our Aussie Dr also said, after talking to Dr Henry Butt, the microbiologist at Bioscreen, that enterococcus and strep are burrowing into the intestines and causing the damage to mucosa and therefore low SigA. They said imperative to treat with AMPICILLIN (I believe vanco and azithromycin might be alternatives, depends). They say very low dose, to BALANCE the flora, not to kill it. But in our case, we had nearly zero good E Coli, and also have to support E coli with Mutaflor. One child has this imbalance i found here on this website, who also use Bioscreen and Dr Butt. http://www.adhd.com.au/Intestinal_Dysbiosis.htm . We are right in the middle of treating with Ampicilin, so I won't know until we test afterwards (and how long it takes to repair SigA lining??) to see if this was actually the right treatment or not, but I will post if so. I have heard that lining can repair in less than 7 days?? But other Drs say years…

 

Also, we were told that the overgrowth of entero / strep causes the yeast overgrowth and yeast also destroys the SigA. Our yeast is in biolfim and no longer shows up on stool reports, but it is still there… when we do biofilm protocols we get die off. And imbalance of wrong bacteria changes ph of gut, which then prevents good bugs from growing…. then more yeast. If we balance the strep/entero, the theory is the yeast will die off by itself and everything will be back in order…………….. I only hope this is true! Please let me know if you hear anything differently. I only got this perspective after talking to the Australians. I am in Singapore and rely on American and Australian Doctors.