Biofeedback with a CRT screen

[Irena]

I need your advice. My 11-old son has had over 20 biofeedback sessions. We have them in Warsaw two times a week (before three times a week) straight after school. Sometimes he's very tired after school which of course doesn't help.

Yesterday I was happy to notice that there is biofeedback newly available in the town near the place I live (we live in a village about 15 minutes drive from Warsaw - Poland, of course ). I called them and talked to a very nice and competent woman (I haven't seen her yet but she seemed much nicer to those my son works with now and has not a very good contact with; I suppose that is important, too). In fact, from her I learnt and understood more about how biofeedback works than I managed to find out so far. I was happy because that would be great to come home from school, have some rest, get some fresh air and then twice a week go to have biofeedback nearby.

But, unfortunately, there is one problem. The woman uses a CRT screen. She says there is not a problem if the EEG did not show photosensitivity. It didn't. But I've read so much here about that it does make things worse. I was trying to suggest that they should replace it with a LCD screen but I don't think they are ready to do that just because of my objections.

I'm struggling hard to limit TV and a computer at home which is not easy. At the beginning of Lent we've made a family resolution of not watching TV till Easter and because we did it before Staś did not suspect that this year his health was my main motivator. As for computer we have arrangement that they use it (Staś and his two brothers) only at weekends and we try to limit it to 1 hour. We are going to replace the computer screen for a LCD one very soon.

But Easter is over and TV is on again (what a blesses time it was without a TV; the family life more nicer; loud reading in the evenings, some board games, etc.; more talking).

What's worse we decided to loosen Stas' dietary restrictions for those two Easter days but it got out of control and he was indulging himself with cakes, milk and other forbidden things (I had guests and was not able to have only what he is allowed to have). The results were immediate: vocal tics back, worse than ever, and some new motor tics (with hands but that seem to already go away). I feel so bad about it.

In two days we will see an allergy doctor who's aware of allergy impact on a neurological system (in her book she writes about cases with autistic children she treated). So I hope we will finally determine what we should avoid and I pray that it will not be much more than we try avoiding now. The doctor claims also to be succesfull with treating yeast problem with neutralization.

So my question is: should I bother to consider biofeedback with CRT? There is no rapid movements on those "games" during biofeedback sessions; he sits pretty far from the screen and there is no all the exciment that accompanies "normal" computer games (quite the contrary; you get "points" when you're relaxed but focused). What do you think?

And they are 25% cheaper which is also of great importance because this is very costly anyway.

One could ask if we have some results of biofeedback. I don't know. Things were really good but we did a lot of things (supplements, diet, fighting yeast) so I suppose it all worked. But I also know that with tics we need a lot of sessions to have results and even more to have them permanent (still, I realise that biofeedback does not remove the primary reason of the problem). So maybe we lost a lot of time and money for nothing but that I will never learn for sure if we stop now.

What do you think? Have you got any experience with biofeeback and CRT screens?

Irena

[Chemar]

Hi Irena

 

I am puzzled by the kind of biofeedback that you are referring to? Why does Stas have to have any interaction with the screen?

 

Perhaps this is very different than the biofeedback treatment that I am familiar with where the patient is NOT in any way near the small screen of a very large machine. Instead, the therapist places the electrodes on various parts of the body and takes readings and then the therapist transmits the biofeedback resonance appropriate to the problem back into the patient.

 

the only purpose of the screen in this is so the therapist can read and monitor the resonance waves during the biofeedback process.

[Irena]

Hi, Chemar

The biofeedback I am talking about (the only kind of biofeedback available in Poland as far as I know) is in fact EEG Biofeedback. It is thouroughly described, with a picture, at http://www.eegbiofeedback.cz/english/english.php?menu=faq.

That's exactly how it looks.

Your answer scared me a bit. I started browsing through English language site and somewhere I found an information that EEG biofeedback is imprecise (thus uneffective?)

Polish sources say the opposite. I know that biofeedback (EEG biofeedback in fact) came to Poland mainly from Czeck Republic. Those who started doing this here were trained there.

There is no big machine (I was wondering why the boy in one of the testimonials you can read on Latitudes used to say "I need to go on a machine". Now I know ).

Oh, God! I just hope I'm not wasting our time and money. Staś is pretty bored with it. How can you be not? The same 5 simple games (that you try to play with your brain only) each session.

I am more confused now that you are, Chemar. All the sources say it works and among the listed disorders it is supposed to help is TS and tics. But now I don't know if it is just marketing.

A few days ago Polish papers reported that the state school authorities decided to buy some biofeedback equipment for schools and psychological and educational children's clinics for kids with learning problems, ADHD, and so on. They say that Adam Malysz, our ski jumping world champion, very popular in Poland, is using this for managing stress.

Well, so I have another question now? Have any of you had some experience with EEG biofeedback? And even if you haven't, seeing how it works (the picture shows how it looks, i.e. how far from the screen you are), do you think it is safe for a child with tics to use biofeedback with a CRT screen?

I will be waiting for your opinion.

Irena

[Chemar]

Irena

what you are describing is , I think, NEUROfeedback.

 

Our physician is NOT in favour of this for Tourettes and I have also heard negative reports from other individuals about it.

 

I cant say for sure if this is what they are calling "EEG Biofeedback" in Poland, but it sure sounds like it to me

 

Resonance BIOfeedback is VERY different and a very specialised healing treatment, rather than something that attempts to alter brain waves.

[Irena]

Thank you, Chemar!

I will have to research more on that. And I will have to find more information on American web sites. This Czeck and Polish enthusiasm with NASA methods, while they are not that popular in the USA (if it worked I suppose you, on this board, would have known about it already) may cause suspicions.

So the questions is: is there a possibility of any harm? All the sources I read say no. Well, if this way we are improving his learning abilities, that is ok. But it is very costly and Staś does not need to improve his learning abilities beacuse his doing great at school, has no problem with attention, is very intelligent and gets excellent grades with much less effort than his older brother.

The woman we work now with claims that she has had about a hundred patients with tics and only one "did not respond". Well, I suppose I wanted to belive her very much. EEG biofeedback is a relatively new thing in Poland. Where did she find those hundred people?

I have to think it over. I will also try to find some Polish patients who could say whether it worked or not, but that may be difficult.

Still, I will be very grateful for any input here.

Irena

[Irena]

Well, I did some reading and I am more relaxed now. The testimonial published here on latitudes which made me take interest in biofeedback in the beginning WAS about EEG biofeedback. And I found some other sites that clearly state that it is helpful with tics and many others that say that with TS it addresses cormobid disorders like ADD, ADHD, sleep disorders and others more than tics themselves.

If I am sure there is no harm in it I think we will continue. Am I? Thank you, Chemar for sharing your doctor's opinion. I would love to hear from others, whether it is also their experience.

Irena

[Chemar]

Irena
could you post the link to the testimonial re EEG Biofeedback that you are referring to here at Latitudes. I would be very interested to read it.

As long as you and your doctor are comfortable with this, you obviously must do what you feel is best for your child.

I dont want to quote other posters here without their permission, but I know that one of our members had a very bad experience with her child and neurofeedback. It started out ok but things changed and they stopped it immediately.

However, I also know that with continuous advancements in methodology, treatments are always being fine tuned and improved so what may have been unacceptable 6 years ago for us may well be a different technique now.

The essential reason our physician disapproved it was that TS is believed to be related to a chemical problem, most likely in the dopaminergic neurotransmission, and rooted in the basal ganglia. So it is not a case of being able to "train" the brain not to tic with true Tourettes. As to the effectiveness of neurofeedback for other tic disorders etc...I have no experience or knowledge with that

Once again, we can all only share our own experiences and acknowledge that what does or doesnt work for some, may have the opposite effect for others. It is always a learning curve.

[Irena]

Chemar,

Here is the link: http://www.latitudes.org/articles/case_reports_ts.htm. I'll try to look for those posts you mentioned. Do you remember under what topic they were posted?

Irena

[Chemar]

Hi Irena and thanks for posting that link. I can only base my opinion on the advice of our doctor and the shared experiences I have heard from others. As we have only ever used resonance biofeedback, not neuro/EEg feedback, my views are therefore not personal ones, nor even educated ones, as I have not researched the treatment

 

I am hoping the other poster that I mentioned will pop in here soon and see the topic and maybe reply with their experience. They are also more knowledgable re CRT screen info than I am

 

[Claire]

They are making games with this concept! Article also references its use for ADD. Excerpts below..

 

Claire

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...ss/14415506.htm

 

Gamers may soon control action with thoughts

By Dean Takahashi

Mercury News

 

Nhat V. Meyer / Mercury News

Left to right, Johnny Liu, Koo Hyoung Lee and Greg Hyber all wear different generations off their companies mind-machine interface headsets at NeuroSky in San Jose.Someday soon, video gamers may be able to use their heads, literally, to get better scores in their games.

 

At least two start-ups have developed technology that monitors a player's brain waves and uses the signals to control the action in games. They hope it will enable game creators to immerse players in imaginary worlds that they can control with their thoughts instead of their hands.

 

...

 

Sensors in the head gear -- whether headbands, headsets or helmets -- measure electrical activity in the brain that scientists have studied for decades. Using NeuroSky's chip technology, the system can distinguish whether a person is calm, stressed, meditative or attentive and alert. Beyond games, the system might be useful for determining whether drivers are so drowsy that they need an alarm to awaken them.

 

 

The goal is to create game console add-ons costing less than $100. Some of the game play features can be conscious -- such as forcing someone to concentrate in order to drive a car faster or toss something at an enemy. Others can be subconscious. The game could slow down, for instance, if the sensors pick up an increase in anxiety, Lee said. The company hasn't set a timetable for the product launches of its customers.

 

``It's a very cool idea,'' said Dean Ku, vice president of marketing at Sunnyvale game company RedOctane. ``We are looking at applications for video games, like controlling cars or airplanes. It might take time. But there are possibilities.''

 

Another company, CyberLearning Technology in San Marcos, has also created a gaming controller system with a helmet that monitors brain waves and can be used to direct a game. The company tapped technology developed by NASA scientists who wanted to train pilots how to focus on their cockpit equipment. It turned the research into Smart BrainGames systems.

 

CyberLearning also uses electrodes that attach to a player's scalp and monitor brain activity. In a fashion similar to NeuroSky, it monitors the relative stress or calmness in a person's neural patterns and links those signals to game controls. In a racing game, for instance, players can drive at faster speeds if they concentrate on being calm. If the players becomes too nervous, the game can send feedback such as vibrations to the game controller that make it harder to drive a car.

 

``It's fun because it adds a new element to game play,'' says Domenic Greco, chief executive of CyberLearning and a psychologist. ``What you are thinking affects the game.''

 

Greco's 5-year-old company has distributed the system to doctors around the country in order to test its impact on patients with concentration disorders such as attention deficit disorder.

 

...

 

Aside from any medical uses, both companies hope their tools could one day be used to create true ``Jedi'' effects in games set in a Star Wars universe. The player could use mind control to lift objects in video games and toss them at enemies in ways that resemble the action in the George Lucas films.

[Chemar]

Hi Claire nice to see you, and hope things continue to go very well for you and your son

 

i sure can see its benefits in ADD etc...but tics, specifically Tourette tics?? Neuro feedback IMHO is just not the right thing when it comes to tics because they are not "controllable" in that way and I just see the potential for unpleasant side effects.

 

Correct me if I am wrong,,,but didnt you guys have a not so good experience with it too...neurofeedback that is?

 

But as said earlier, I speak with no personal experience, albeit with our doctor's input that this was not something she would receommend.... but am always open and willing to learn on these things

[Claire]

Hi Chemar,

 

Yes we had a bad experience with it and like you, I do NOT recommend it for tics...at least at this stage, since maybe years from now someone will have perfected the protocols for tics.

 

Right now I feel the practioners would be experimenting on our kids. I wrote a PM to Irena along those lines.

 

I don't even know if it works for ADD or not. I posted the new games that use it only because I thought it was interesting. At the risk of being alarmist, I personally would never let my son play a game where he was messing with his brain waves to get it to run, since I did see (negative) impact from it. Kind of scary what is being introduced into the game realm without studies on the impact.

 

I hope all is well for you also, we are doing great. Still doing MT promotion...no idea if it is removing metals, but I will test again when summer starts.

 

Cheers,

Claire