Herxing?

[JenniferG]

MD added a pm dose of abx for dd8 with PANDAS. She got worse very quickly. Increased anxiety....Higgins and OCD creeping in and rage returned. Unable to make decisions and "hates her life because it isn't perfect". Stopped abx....almost all but slight anxiety resolved. And her yeast is getting better.

[NancyD]

It certainly could be herxing. Have you tested for Lyme and co-infections? If not, you really should. We tried different abx over the years and had a real problem with any that are typically used for Lyme and Bartonella. Rages and OCD increased. Now I understand why....she was herxing.

[LNN]

As I understand it (and that means nothing), the term Herx was used originally to describe a worsening of symptoms caused by die-off and toxin release when a spirochete shaped bacteria is killed - the two most known being syphilis and borrelia (lyme). So strictly speaking, a herx is a lyme thing. But the term herx is used on the forum more loosely, to describe the getting worse before you get better phenomenon. When you get a certain strain of strep and your body starts to kill it, you can get scarlet fever (not all GAHBS strains cause this). The rash is a result of the die-off and the bacteria releasing toxins. It's a herx of sorts, except the rash doesn't really cause a worsening of symptoms in the same way people mean when they describe a herx caused by borrelia die-off. "True" herxes in my experience almost made me want to stop treatment, which seems to be what you're describing.

 

There have been other things in your previous posts that make me second Nancy's advice.

[smartyjones]

prior to my strep, lyme, chronic infection education. . . i had heard of the 'herx-like' reaction due to die off of treatment for yeast, not other infections.

 

in alternative medicine, it can be an often occurrence and is usually referred to as a 'healing crisis' or an 'aggravation'. so, yes, i believe the experience of symptoms worsening before bettering can be due to many treatments and many pathogens.

 

in our experience with ds7, he experienced his most obvious 'herx' due to the addition of an anti-viral. he had severe OCD contamination concerning food and handwashing. this had not been symptoms previously. looking back, there were signs of this during the first week; extreme during the 2nd and part of 3rd week; began gradual melting away after that.

 

ds9 had improvement with treatment without aggravation. after about 6 weeks, i added a new high level probiotic. after 2-3 weeks, he had new, very troublesome symptoms. they improved about 2 weekss after i discontinued the probiotic -- which he was on about 6 weeks. the dr also believes this probiotic was troublesome for him.

 

just from my experience -- and not at all substantiated except for my kids -- i'd say a prolonged worsening with no improvement may not be herx. i also think i've heard of most herx reactions being rather quick in showing up. i'd think you'd have to see some improvement on some level, or improvements in some areas and worsening in some areas after a rather short time -- like within 1-2 weeks.

 

we were in very close touch with dr for ds7 b/c obviously very worried that this was eating refusal and was only on dr recommended meds. i wasn't so much for ds9 b/c i didn't dream it was the probiotic, which i added -- had discussed probiotic with dr but not specific brand. i now kick myself we didn't discuss that in depth with dr.

Edited June 15, 2011 by smartyjones

[JenniferG]

As I understand it (and that means nothing), the term Herx was used originally to describe a worsening of symptoms caused by die-off and toxin release when a spirochete shaped bacteria is killed - the two most known being syphilis and borrelia (lyme). So strictly speaking, a herx is a lyme thing. But the term herx is used on the forum more loosely, to describe the getting worse before you get better phenomenon. When you get a certain strain of strep and your body starts to kill it, you can get scarlet fever (not all GAHBS strains cause this). The rash is a result of the die-off and the bacteria releasing toxins. It's a herx of sorts, except the rash doesn't really cause a worsening of symptoms in the same way people mean when they describe a herx caused by borrelia die-off. "True" herxes in my experience almost made me want to stop treatment, which seems to be what you're describing.

 

There have been other things in your previous posts that make me second Nancy's advice.

 

Spoke with Dr.B this week and he is adding a Bartonella lab from Igenex. Her local Lyme Western Blot was neg except for p41 band. Is Augmentin used for Bartonella?

Edited June 15, 2011 by JenniferG

[JenniferG]

It certainly could be herxing. Have you tested for Lyme and co-infections? If not, you really should. We tried different abx over the years and had a real problem with any that are typically used for Lyme and Bartonella. Rages and OCD increased. Now I understand why....she was herxing.

Her local Lyme Western Blot was neg except for p41 band. MD ordered Igenex Bartonella test. She has such a bad yeast infection. What brand/strength of probiotics is typical use for a 48lb 8yo girl? She takes about 5-6 billion a day of Jarro chewables. I feel that's low considering I take 60 billion,1-3 daily.

[LNN]

Our LLMD has my DD (who used to get yeast infections every few months- when she was not on abx) - taking TruFlora probiotic to fight yeast. She took 1 Truflora daily at bedtime for two weeks, and now takes it twice a week as a prophylactic (takes 1 Theralac probiotic the other 5 days of the week). She hasn't had a yeast infection in the 8 months since starting, even tho she's now on 2 abx. These probiotics have 30 billion (my DD is 6 - 42 lbs).

 

Augmentin is not one of the abx mentioned frequently for bartonella. I hear of it used more often in combo with zith for lyme. But it's common to find both bartonella with lyme in a patient. Bactrim, biaxin and doxy are used often, usually in combo with a second abx. Doxy would not be a good choice for a younger child who doesn't have all of their adult teeth yet. Many of the abx used can cause photosensitivity (easy sunburns). So lots of sunscreen.

 

FWIW - my DS tested completely negative on a standard WB, but had positive IgM and IgGs for bands 31, 34 and 39 - which are highly associated with lyme but not tested on the standard WB. Igenex results painted a very different picture than the standard WB because it looks for different antibody responses.

[philamom]

Our LLMD has my DD (who used to get yeast infections every few months- when she was not on abx) - taking TruFlora probiotic to fight yeast. She took 1 Truflora daily at bedtime for two weeks, and now takes it twice a week as a prophylactic (takes 1 Theralac probiotic the other 5 days of the week). She hasn't had a yeast infection in the 8 months since starting, even tho she's now on 2 abx. These probiotics have 30 billion (my DD is 6 - 42 lbs).

 

Augmentin is not one of the abx mentioned frequently for bartonella. I hear of it used more often in combo with zith for lyme. But it's common to find both bartonella with lyme in a patient. Bactrim, biaxin and doxy are used often, usually in combo with a second abx. Doxy would not be a good choice for a younger child who doesn't have all of their adult teeth yet. Many of the abx used can cause photosensitivity (easy sunburns). So lots of sunscreen.

 

FWIW - my DS tested completely negative on a standard WB, but had positive IgM and IgGs for bands 31, 34 and 39 - which are highly associated with lyme but not tested on the standard WB. Igenex results painted a very different picture than the standard WB because it looks for different antibody responses.

My daughter(9) takes Minocin (instead of doxy) as part of her combo for Bartonella & RMSF.