My almost 4 yo son

[jenbug]

Okay, I know I have asked a lot onb here about myself and my ODD. Now, my son, who is almost 4, was just dxd with a rapid strep test about month ago. Since about a week before the test and until now, he has been belligerent. I know that most kids act out when they don't feel well, but his is getting to the point where I almost can't swtand him! He is not ticking or obsessing, but he is almost "obsessively naughtyy" if you kwim. Once he decides he wants something or doesn't want to do something (I know is common in childhood to an extent anyhow though) he will NOT stop...he will keep it up almost all day (from the minute he gets up til he goes to bed)or unless I enforce really harsh punishments that I don't like using. for example, this morning he would not get dressed to go outside. The baby and I went out while he screamed and screamed for about 20-30 mins. He just didn't want the clothes on. The way he carries on is soooo dramatic and really really loud. I am sooo embarrassed as my oldest does this too. I realize it could be age-appropriate or learned from the oldest, but I was giving him Motrin all week until today just to see what would happen. Today he is totally different then earlier this week when on the Motrin. I am wondering if he still has strep even after 10 days of treatment...I dont even remember what antibiotic it was (that's bad I know). Anyhow would you seek help for his behaviour? The pediatrician who I thought would work with us just told us to go to a neuro, so I have to do that Monday. Also, it is about a 1-month wait to get to the neuro... Any ideas?

Edited June 4, 2011 by jenbug

[Tamistwins]

Jenbug

I would have him retested not only a rapid but also cultured for 72 hours at lab . My daughter does the same thing will scream , cry whine all day over the stupidest thing. It is an OCD obsessive thing. My daughter has pandas and Lyme. I empathize it is very hard to live with I feel same way.

Gl,

Tami

[thereishope]

I can say that my son had a refussal to get dressed as well and the screaming too. A 4 year old, as I compare it to the way my kids acted at that age since that's all I have to compare it to (my kids are a ds10, ds7. dd4), shouldn't scream for a half hour straight for that. Maybe a tantrum for 5 min or less but wouldn't go on and on.

 

More than likely your son was given amoxicillin. it's just a guess on my part but that is still the "go to" antibiotics for strep in ped's offices. There is a chance, that it did not clear. Amoxicillin and penicillin both have high failure rates in errdicating strep. I would get him retested.

 

Also, have you seen the list for OCD in PANDAS kids? Maybe look at it and see how much, if any, your child has. Many don't realize what they are witnesing is OCD.

 

Signs of OCD in a young child

http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6153&hl=

[jenbug]

Vickie--thanks That is a very helpful list. My son has a few of them, but not as severe as his oldest sister. Hers is definitely OCD. I think hers was less noticeable when she was younger, but got worse over time. Probably due to not getting necessary treatment then. I am going to try to get them into the neuro asap. Waiting is hard for me as I have OCD as well and got it very young too.

[smartyjones]

he has been belligerent. ! He is not ticking or obsessing, but he is almost "obsessively naughtyy" if you kwim. . . he will NOT stop... The way he carries on is soooo dramatic and really really loud.

 

 

jenbug -- i see this is a few days old. how are things now? i can't remember from the list vickie recommended - but did you also check webpediatrics.com, dr k's site? it has some good info on it about what you are describing. it sounds very much like my son when he first presented symtpoms -- at age 4 and a half. perhpas it is the age when presenting -- i don't know -- but sounds very similar. beligerent is exactly the word.

 

once he had to leave a grocey store for such outrageous behavior, sat on a bench with me crying and upset that dh and other son were still inside -- very remorseful and calm. they came out, we got into car, ds jumped over seats into driver seat, honking horn, jumping, yelling wildly like a crazed person.

 

obsessively naughty - yes. doing things just to annoy. wild inappropriate dramatic over-reactions to things. screaming 'butt, butt, poop' in a shoe store -- he previously wasn't one to do a lot of butt talk. yelling, 'mama is a penis, mama is a penis" when i told him he couldn't do something.

 

when i told people, they'd say, "he's just being a boy, right". NO! this wasn't his previous personality and you'd have to see it to get it, but it was infused with this wacked, 'wrong', type of energy.

 

i very much think what you are describing sounds like pandas. i believe there is also an integrative dr in Denver who deals with multiple types of infections, if the pandas specialists seem out of reach for you.

 

for us, ds had clear strep indicators. this kind of wild stuff calmed down when we went to a naturopath who was treating for gut dysbiosis. not all symptoms went away, but this beligerence did. he then had 100% remission after about 3 days when he got on the right abx. it didn't last as he relapsed after about 30 days off the abx. we later discovered multiple infections.

 

good luck finding help!

[jenbug]

he has been belligerent. ! He is not ticking or obsessing, but he is almost "obsessively naughtyy" if you kwim. . . he will NOT stop... The way he carries on is soooo dramatic and really really loud.

 

 

jenbug -- i see this is a few days old. how are things now? i can't remember from the list vickie recommended - but did you also check webpediatrics.com, dr k's site? it has some good info on it about what you are describing. it sounds very much like my son when he first presented symtpoms -- at age 4 and a half. perhpas it is the age when presenting -- i don't know -- but sounds very similar. beligerent is exactly the word.

 

once he had to leave a grocey store for such outrageous behavior, sat on a bench with me crying and upset that dh and other son were still inside -- very remorseful and calm. they came out, we got into car, ds jumped over seats into driver seat, honking horn, jumping, yelling wildly like a crazed person.

 

obsessively naughty - yes. doing things just to annoy. wild inappropriate dramatic over-reactions to things. screaming 'butt, butt, poop' in a shoe store -- he previously wasn't one to do a lot of butt talk. yelling, 'mama is a penis, mama is a penis" when i told him he couldn't do something.

 

when i told people, they'd say, "he's just being a boy, right". NO! this wasn't his previous personality and you'd have to see it to get it, but it was infused with this wacked, 'wrong', type of energy.

 

i very much think what you are describing sounds like pandas. i believe there is also an integrative dr in Denver who deals with multiple types of infections, if the pandas specialists seem out of reach for you.

 

for us, ds had clear strep indicators. this kind of wild stuff calmed down when we went to a naturopath who was treating for gut dysbiosis. not all symptoms went away, but this beligerence did. he then had 100% remission after about 3 days when he got on the right abx. it didn't last as he relapsed after about 30 days off the abx. we later discovered multiple infections.

 

good luck finding help!

Thanks! It seems like he is a little better today than yesterday. yesterday was terrible. I also think he is beligerent and he never was before. People that I know are like...oh he is just being a boy or going through the terrible 2's still...haha. He was really good during the "2s" and just starting this crap during the 3's. He does also have year-round allergies for which he uses Allegra. All of my kids have allergy-type symptoms as well, including severe milk intolerances. I wonder if this is still his problem. however, they won't drink soy or elemental formulas anymore. I guess a trip to an immunologist (like Shaesmom recc) would be good to do as well as the consult with Dr. T tomorrow morning. I am also going to ask about Lyme jic.

Thanks

[jenbug]

I forgot to add that my oldest daughter's counselor told me yesterday that she had heard of PANDAS and thinks it is good to be checking it out. She thinks with all the issues my kids have that there is definitaly a biological basis for probably most of it instead of all the other diagnoses like add, adhd, ocd, tourettes, etc, etc. Especially since they ALL show problems with allergies and behavior, etc. We have tried multiple ADHD drugs which just exacerbate the OCD/hair pulling, etc. Even the babyhas sensory issues (as do the other 2) and just started walking at 17 months old. So, there is obviously SOMETHING going on besides if you kwim and that is why we are so desperate to find out! I am so glad I found this board. You women are sooo amazing and helpful/supportive! I cannot thank you all enough!

 

With love,

Jenny

[smartyjones]

jenny -- are you familiar with dr. kenneth bock? you might like his book - the title is something like "the 4 As -- healing the new childhood epidemics - autism, allergies, ADHD and asthma".

there is a forum member that i believe used to see him as a dr.

 

i'm pretty sure this was the first book i read when ds was first diagnosed. i don't remember specifics but think it gives a good overview of the concept of those issues and other behaviors being related to toxins, infections, general overload, etc.

[jenbug]

Looks like a good book--now, didn't you say your son has PANDAS and some other infections? I believe that is our case here too. I think there is PANDAS, allergies, and maybe Lyme.