magnesium deficiency->tics and bedwetting

[quan_daniel]

The effect of deficiency of selected bioelements on hyperactivity in children with certain specified mental disorders, Starobrat-Hermelin B, Ann Acad Med Stetin 1998;44:297-314

 

"... shortage [of magnesium, copper, zinc, calcium, iron] occurs more often among hyperactive children than among those being healthy, and deficiency of magnesium is the most frequent in this respect. Further, I have divided the group of 110 children with magnesium deficiency into two groups according to the other mental disorders that coexist with ADHD: 1) the group where hyperactivity coexists with disorders typical for developmental age such as enuresis, tics, separation anxiety, stuttering, selective mutism (63 children); 2) the group where hyperactivity coexists with disruptive behaviour disorders: conduct disorder and oppositional defiant disorder (47 children). ... The zinc content in hair was higher among children with ADHD and disruptive behaviour disorder. ... The analysis of influence exerted by magnesium supplementation on hyperactivity has been carried out in the group of total 75 children with ADHD jointly with magnesium deficiency ... The obtained results have clearly disclosed significant increase of magnesium, zinc, calcium content ... and ... decrease of hyperactivity in the group of children treated with magnesium. At the same time, however, among the children given standard treatment without magnesium, hyperactivity has intensified ... The findings herein presented indicate that it is necessary to take into consideration a possible bioelements deficiency among children with ADHD. Consequently, the accomplished study proves that there is a need of magnesium supplementation in ADHD children irrespectively of other mental disorders."

[LuluGirl]

Hi Daniel,

 

Thanks for the very interesting article. Does it say what levels of magnesium, calcium, zinc and copper were useful? I am just about to go back to supplementing my 12 year old son with that group (except for the copper)...

 

Lisa

[kim]

Lisa and All,

 

http://diet-studies.com/wet.html

 

If you do a google search and put in "enuresis+magnesium" you will get quite a few links.

 

I have recently cut way back on my 8 year olds dairy intake, started using digestive enzymes, as I felt they may eliminate the need for total caesin free diet.

There are suggestions on the autism/enzyme website of kids being gfcf, then having them reintroduced and doing better with than without. Also, talk of dairy raising seratonin and wheat aiding in metal removal? Since my son is such a limited eater, they seemed worth a try.

 

I have also started something that I said I wouldn't do (without testing). I started giving him Bonnie's vitamins. I have been trying not to post since so many things are changing daily.

 

Our results with tic reduction have been amazing. Probably 85% better, however, his tics are multiple but mild, and I only have him taking 4 a day. I am giving him a little extra zinc at night, since 4 won't give him even 10 mgs. He is getting 75 mgs. of mag taurate at this dose. I will work him up to probably about 6 a day. This is still quite a bit under the recommended dose for his age on Bonnies Viamins.

 

We have had dry nights!, which is unheard of even with a 1:00 a.m. wakings for bathroom use. Just when I was planning the Dry Night Party, we had the gigunda wet spot. This was on the night I decided to give him some string cheese. So, I'm not sure what is responsible, the vitamins, the milk reduction, the enzymes or what. This is only about our 5th day of the addition of the vitamins.

 

I have been successful with getting him to at least put corn in his mouth. He swallowed the first 3 kernels like you would a pill, the 4th one he actually chewed. He has tried raw green bean, lettuce, a couple of carrot sticks. This may sound like no big deal, but this is the first time he has had any of these foods in his mouth in 6.5 years. I don't think this is due to anything more than me putting my foot down, and taking away his breakfast drink, cheese, yougart and graham crackers, cocoa donuts cereal etc. He is not enjoying anything new yet, and may not unless I remove all dairy, I just don't know. He will eat a small salad (lettuce with orange pepper sticks and tiny shredded carrots) Carolyn, if you're reading, he didn't gag, which he has always done in the past, before it even hit his lips. He knows Mom is serious this time though.

 

Daniel and I IM during the day sometimes and he kicked up the magnesium connection with the bed wetting. I've been looking for it for 6 months. All I could ever find was immature bladder capacity and heredity. I was really excited to read that. Pediatrician had blood work done to make sure he was able to concentrate properly, and didn't see any kidney problems apparently.

I was a bed wetter as a child, and now I'm wondering how mag. deficient I may have been during my life. Yes, it may be inherited, but again doesn't this seem to suggest that there is nothing to do but wait to outgrow? Sounds fimiliar.

 

Kim

[kim]

Just wanted to add a couple of things.

 

I read a post last night on the Autism/Enzyme web site from a poster who gives her child Calcium for bed wetting, and sees the problem return if they miss a night.

She doesn't say if this is the only supplement she gives her daughter or not.

 

When I posted about the magnesuim above, I should have mentioned that Bonnie's vitamins also contain equal amounts of calcium. Since keeping a balance is so important, I thought I should mention this. As Chemar and others have pointed out many times, supervision when using supplements by a medical professional is always a good idea.

 

I have found an Intergrative Physician. Our appt. isn't until Aug. and I wanted to get started on a couple of things now, so we wouldn't have to try to introduce new supplements, work with the enzymes, and diet restrictions etc. right when school was ready to start. It's really helpful to me to be able to see how he is responding during the day. I know I will have to stop the vitamins for testing, and that's why I was holding off, it's hard to take away something that's helping even for a week or two. I have found with both boys, although it's really to early to say with youngest, that we seem to have pretty good results at only 1/2 of the recommended dosage of Bonnie's vitamins.

 

Forgot to mention in earlier post that I am giving 1 fish oil per day also, these are ordered through Bonnie also.

 

Kim

[KJS]

Wow, Kim, it's so exciting to hear about the benefits you're realizing from something - or some combination of things - you've been doing. How encouraging! Do you have a gut feeling about the role of Bonnie's vitamins?

 

I spoke by phone with a local neurologist who was recommended to me as someone who is open to "alternative" approaches to managing neuro issues. He doesn't treat children so wouldn't see us, but he had some interesting suggestions that are consistent with what many people here are doing: supplement with fish oil and magnesium. He also suggested CoQ10. A neurologist with an open mind!

 

I wish you continued success and am very interested to hear how the bedwetting goes with removal of the string cheese.

 

Karen

[LuluGirl]

I, too, have read about the connection between bed-wetting and dairy intake. Keep it up! I bet your son is pleased too.

 

Lisa

[kim]

http://diet-studies.com/wet.html#Zoller

 

Some interesting publications on enuresis.

 

I got cocky. Since youngest responded so well to the vitamins, fish oil, etc. I loosened the reins with the dairy, and a little soda. Not good.

 

If either calcium or magnesium is the answer to this, he is not getting enough. It appears at this point the avoidance of dairy and or sugar is essential for dry nights for my son. The other possibility, is simply reduced fluid intake. Still observing and struggling! I would so rather have him on some dairy than none, simply because without, it restricts so many of the things he will eat, which are so limited.

The enzymes may be a factor too, although I have used such a minimal amount, and don't want to increase without medical guidance.

Appt. July 14, with a pediatric DO who has specialized in allergies for 20 years and has been involved with vitamin treatments for 8 years. He is speaking on vitamin therapies and will be gone the month of August, per the nurse in his office, and does use the labs, talked about here often. He will at the least be able to order the tests that I feel are really necessary. At this time, I'm thinking IgG food allergy testing, Spectracell 5000, and Great Plains Oat and will welcome any suggestions he has regarding the use of the supplements the boys are taking now, or testing he has found beneficial. It will be wonderful to finally speak with someone who's on the same page. Karen, your post about the neuro, acknowledging benefits from supplements was wonderful to read.

 

I will be adding to the thread "testing" about the results of my sons Urine Dysbiosis Marker test through Metamatrix at some point, there is a lot of controversy, btwn Met. and Great Plains regarding testing for aribinitol vs. aribinose. Let's just say for now, I am not convinced youngest does not have a candida problem, based on test by Met.

 

Kim

 

Lisa, thanks for the encouragement!

Karen, I think Bonnie's vits/supp are really wonderful for my boys and a very big part of the tic reduction, although right now I do feel like other factors such as allergy control, food sensitivities and possibly elimination of yeast overgrowth are important for long term success. My oldest son has had wonderful results with the vitamins/fish oil alone, however he is at a different stage (older) and I have to consider the wanning stages with the head shaking. I KNOW the body aches, and bruxism were helped by the vitamins. It was so clearly visable with the starting and stopping of the vitamins for various reasons, mostly illness where he was unable to take the vits. like stomach flu. The head shaking took longer to go. He did shake his head a couple of times the other day. I gave him a mag. taurate-which he will take occasionaly, like 1 every two weeks in addition to what he gets in the 10 vits. per day he takes. I have also considered upping the fish oil. Bonnie's dosage says 2-4 a day for his weight. I have only given one a day since he started the vitamins. The cottonwood fuzzy's were flying, he has had positive allergy testing to cottonwood, and I'm giving him 1 allergy med instead of the 3 that were prescribed. He has been great.

Mazz and Alison talked about flair ups being milder and farther between.

I would not say the vits, "cure" tics. But based on my experience so far, I do believe they are making a huge improvement and help keep things mild and manageable. I do get concerned when I read of others like Robins son, and Simon who were doing well and then had a flair, and I believe the body changes and so do the requirements. It's trying to figure out what changes are necessary that's hard I guess.

This is the most honest assessment I can give at this time.

PS the head shake I referred to is the first we have seen in a long time. It does not appear right now to be a flair, but I will keep you posted.

[kim]

Thought I better explain as you can see from previous post, that I changed the plan with the Physician. I hated to give up the appt. with the Integrative Dr. She sounded wonderful, however this DO is about 1/2 as far, and the fees more manageble, plus we could get started quicker.

 

Kim

[kim]

In regards to the post about calcium and bedwetting.

 

The same poster from the other board who originally posted about this, added the message, that the calcium used, has to be Calcium Carbonate. She said the calcium carbonate had only failed twice in 8 months, because she thought they had forgotten to give. She said when they tried calcium citrate, it did not work at all.

[kim]

Comment from Dr. Walsh/Pfeiffer

 

 

Our Center's autism outcomes have greatly improved since beginning metallothionein-promotion therapy. It's no longer a surprise when a young autistic child becomes free of all traces of autism. We are a public charity and have made this protocol available to more than 100 doctors, many of whom report treatment successes. MT-Promotion must be done very carefully to avoid zinc depletion which can result in temporary worsening of behavior, stimming, enuresis, etc.

 

zinc depletion-enuresis?

Ok which one is it? Calcium, magnesium,zinc?

 

Kim

[Spongebob]

Hi Kim

 

I hope you are still around to read this. I was the poster on the other board about the bedwetting and the calcium. Well we've just had had the calcium stop working. I've been researching and I think the reason is a magnesium deficiency. I've recently changed my daughters diet to be almost grain/carb free (a modifed SCD really but no nuts as she is allergic). We're doing this for leaky gut issues. Ofcouse all the magneisum containing foods are ones we've cut out of our diet now. She's also been taking calcium for a very long time now, and never had magnesium supplemented at all. By the sound of it, the amount of magnesium I'll need to supplement, must be either twice the amount of calcium or atleast asmuch as it. So for me that will be either 600mg or 1200mg. Haven't had much luck finding high levels of magnesium in capsules (she wont swallow tablets, but will swallow capsules).

 

That's my current theory anyway as to why the bedwetting is back. I'll get back to you and let you know if a high dose of magesium keeps the bedwetting under control again.

 

Donna

Brisbane

 

..quote from Kim..

The same poster from the other board who originally posted about this, added the message, that the calcium used, has to be Calcium Carbonate. She said the calcium carbonate had only failed twice in 8 months, because she thought they had forgotten to give. She said when they tried calcium citrate, it did not work at all.

..end quote..

[Spongebob]

Kim again

 

You said:

 

zinc depletion-enuresis?

Ok which one is it? Calcium, magnesium,zinc?

 

I'm saying:

 

I don't think it is zinc. I've had my daughters copper:zinc ratio tested once and was very suprised to find it was normal (I have an ASD child aswell with a screwed up copper:zinc ratio) and she has a lot of the same problems as him (other than autism, she has arthritis which is bad too).

 

I'll start supplementing the zinc (we have a nice vitamin c drink with high zinc in it, so it is easy to give) and see if that helps. I'll give the magnesium a week by itself and then add the zinc and see what happens.

 

I've had enzymes give the bedwetting prevention effect in the past too. I think anything that prevents an allergic/intolerance reaction will help the bedwetting (if the bedwetting is caused an allergy). But I think the calcium needs magnesium to work and that is what our current problem is.

 

With regard to the calcium and why it works - I think because it calms down allergic reactions (not sure how, but that is why it is recommened for kids with food allergies).

 

Donna

Brisbane

[kim]

Hi Donna,

 

Thanks so much for posting! I'm really sorry hear you lost the effect you were seeing with the calcium. Bedwetting isn't the end of the world, but I do think it is hard in the self esteem dept.(hard on Mom and the washer too) Sounds like your little ones are dealing with a lot. I posted here recently, that the people on the autism boards amaze me because things can be so difficult for them and their children, yet they find time to post and share with others, like myself, who have milder problems. Thank you!

 

I have to ask you about posting--"By the sound of it, the amount of magnesium I'll need to supplement, must be either twice the amount of calcium or atleast asmuch as it. So for me that will be either 600mg or 1200mg. Haven't had much luck finding high levels of magnesium in capsules (she wont swallow tablets, but will swallow capsules)."

 

My understanding is that you need double the amount of calcium to magnesium, or at least 1:1 ratio. This is the what I read most commonly. I believe I also read where magnesium will block, or make calcium "uptake" harder. Just wanted to make sure that you weren't confusing the two, Lord know, that's easy enough to do, or maybe you are talking about something specific to enuresis?

 

Maybe someone else here can help with a high level mag. capsule. I have mag. taurate, but it is only 100 mgs per capsule.

 

I am still only using about 1/2 capsule of Peptizyde, and 1/2 Zymeprime, once or twice a day. I have No fenal here, but have not used it yet. I REALLY do the low and slow, with everything, mostly due to the fact that I have not had the support or advice of any type of Physician. I agree with everything you said about the enzymes, allergies etc, you just have to work through the maze of what works best, and then pray, it keeps working.

 

You mentioned leaky gut. Could you tell me what treatment you do for yeast, other than the GFCF diet? Do you use GSE, Nystatin ? Which Probotics?

 

I just wanted to add, that I have supplemented with Zinc, however only a total of about 25-30 mgs, about 15 mgs. given seperately at night, and have seen no effect on the bed wetting.

 

Again, it was wonderful to hear from you.

 

 

Kim

[Spongebob]

Thanks for replying too Kim :-)

 

I found a 300mg magnesium capsule (multiple forms on magnesium in it). Gave her two capsules when she got home from school, and another two with her calcium carbonate at night. Was a success too. Since we've changed her diet she's wet the bed 6 out of the last 7 nights. Adding magnesium worked!! YAY!! Obviously one night isn't much of a scientific study LOL, but obviously we will keep going.

 

There is a link between magnesium deficiency and headaches. My daughter just has constant headaches, they never go away. I was thinking that perhaps the caltrates (calcium carbonate 600mg) she has been taking for a year perhaps have been using all the magnesium in her body, and that she never had any left for her rest of her body. So for that reason, I will give her 600mg of magnesium in the morning before school from now on. Plus another 600mg at night with her 600mg of calcium. No idea it will make a difference in her headaches, but I think she might need it. Now that she is not eating grains, she is getting almost no magensium, so supplementing it seems the only way. It's worth a try I think.

 

With the leaky gut. Well to be honest I know asmuch as you. I only realised a week ago that she has most of the symptoms of leaky gut (bedwetting is a symtom, as is arthritis, the funny way she breathes, her intolerance problems (allergic to everything). There was more too, but do a search on leaky gut symptoms and see if the symptoms match your child.

 

I'm at a bit of loss as to what to do re the leaky gut. I did buy some sort of powder you mix in with a drink that is supposed to help heal the gut. I haven't started giving her probiotics yet, but I know I should. I guess I need to sit down and think about it. I thought by changing her diet to eliminate simple carbs like potato, rice, wheat that should help somewhat (I know eating like this makes me feel better). I know she has candida, and I have quite a few candida killers in my house. I bought that xylitol which is a natural sugar substitiute (made from strawberries and birch trees) that supposedly kills candida. So quite good eating something that tastes like sugar and having it elimate your candida problem.

 

A few years ago we tried to aggressively treat candida in all of us with GSE (grapefruit seed extract) - what a mistake that was. We were all so so itchy (you can guess where). After that horrible experience I figured it was better to keep the candida inside, as it coming out was not a good thing LOL!! So any anti-candia regime I am going to use it going to be very gentle and slow.

 

The GFCF diet made yeast worse in my son. Was a disaster. People seem to get more sensitive and more intolerant on it. That is my experience and my observation. Some people need the GFCF part of it, but all the sweet treats they give their kids on GFCF just make things worse in the gut. My sons gut got destroyed by 6 months GFCF, and was fixed by 6 months on houston enzymes with everything (and that was 1-2 peptizydes with each meal, aswell as 1-2 no-fenols, we never bought zyme-prime). Eventually with my daughter I might put her on all three houston enzymes for a while, to see if that helps her various problems.

 

Both my children (actually I have another child in the middle with less problems, but still allergies to everything) have had allergy treatments at http://www.aaeclinics.com.au (I'm in Australia) and it has helped trememdously with their intolerances. Michael (the one with autism) can eat almost anything now, but the arthritis girl Hayley still needs lots more treatments.

 

I'm nearly out of nystatin. I will try and get another script for it for my son (costs almost nothing to get it for him as because he is autistic he has a healthcare card and I can get cheap pharmaceutical medicines for him - just part of Australia's healthcare scheme). So when I get more nystatin, I will start giving it to Hayley too. I should buy a probitoic too (I have three expired ones in my fridge..sigh).

 

I saw you mentioned about tics too. I've only just realised that my autistic son has some tics. He had one where he screws up one of his eyes. I did the high dose vitamin A protocol, and he seems to have stopped the eye squinting. Not sure if your son has any eye related tics, but if he has it's worth a try with the high dose vit A protocol.

 

I hope I've answered your questions. It's lots of trial and error having kids with problems like this. I'll keep you informed as to how the magnesium/calcium combination is going.

 

Donna

Brisbane

[Spongebob]

Hi Kim

 

I wrote out a big reply already, and posted it, but it didnt work. I must have pressed the post preview button instead by mistake. Ohwell, have to write it all again!! Apologies if two messages come through.

 

The magnesium worked!! I bought a 300mg magnesium capsule (multiple types of magnesium in the one capsule. Yesterday I gave her 600mg magnesium when she got home from school, and another 600mg magnesium along with the 600mg calcium carbonate at bedtime. Last week she wet the bed 6/7 nights. I guess one dry night isn't enough evidence to support a scientific theory, but I will obviously keep trying.

 

I was looking up the symptoms of magnesium deficiency and one of them is headaches. My daughter just has constant headaches all the time, they never go away. So I thought that perhaps it is magnesium deficiency that is causing it. For almost a year she has been having calcium each night which would have been using up the available magnesium in her body, leaving no magnesium left for her body to use. So I will do the 1200mg of magnesium a day until she starts having sleeping problems (which I read somewhere is a sign of too much magnesium).

 

Gee you aren't using too many enzymes. My son was on houston enzymes about 3-4 years ago, and would always give atleast one peptizyde and one no-fenol with everything (I'd never bought zyme-prime). The no-fenol ws a miracle for us because my son was extremely phenol intolerant at the time, it was wonderful to be able to give him fruit again. My son (and daughter too) have since had allergy treatments at http://www.aaeclinics.com.au and my son can tolerate almost all food now without a reaction. My daughter still needs more treatments. No-fenols in my daughter would stop bedwetting more than other enzymes because in her they are caused by a phenol based intolerance.

 

With the leaky gut, honestly I do not know what to do really. I only realised last week on Monday that she had leaky gut. I found a site that listed bedwetting and arthritis as symptoms, plus heaps of other things my daughter had. She is extremely carb addicted, so thought the change in diet might help. I also know she has candida as I treated it once with GSE and that caused her extreme itchiness (you can guess where), which was horrible. From now on will only use gentle yeast control methods, not some overkill like GSE in large amounts. Will do yeast killing very gently. I've bought that xylitol which is the natural sugar substitute that kills candida. So it's very nice to have a candida killer that tastes/well is just like sugar.

 

Nystatin - my bottle of capsules has nearly run out. I will need to get a script for another bottle. I can't really comment on that because I havent been giving it regularly enough to be able to tell.

 

Probiotics - I need to buy some more as I have three expired one in my fridge.

 

With tics - you mentioned something about them. If your son has any visual tics look into the high dose vitamin A protocol. My ASD son was doing this eye squinting thing and we did the high dose vitamin A protocol a few weeks ago (and not properly either, I stopped as he got sick) and I haven't seem him squint his eyes since. He still has a headshaking and also head nodding problem, and even that has reduced (could be other things though). Definately if he has any visual tics, give the vitamin A thing a go.

 

I hope I answered all your questions. Lets hope posting this message works.

 

Donna