Impulse Control? TIC? WTH is this?

[tantrums]

My son had his first episode beginning about 8 weeks ago. He's been on ABX about 4 weeks now. He is 6. Overall, he is showing some improvement. He is showing hardly any tics at all. He was experiencing downright scary rages - lasting up to a couple of hours. Those thank goodness have subsided. Overall, he is generally an unhappy child right now, very difficult to deal with. I work hard at keeping things calm and peaceful here, while finding a balance of not allowing a 6 year old to run the house (or OCD behaviors to run the house). since we are new to this we're still in the learning process.

 

We have a 13 year old Portugese Water Dog named Elton. For the past 2 or 3 weeks, every flippin time my DS walks by the dog, he hits the dog on the behind. Quite hard sometimes. The dog is VERY passive and has never bared a tooth or growled at DS, but the dog is old and not doing well physically himself. Besides that - he is a DOG and he has large, sharp teeth and can only take so much! Prior to PANDAS, DS knew better than this! I'm very upset by it. I've told him every single time - DO NOT hit the dog. I get a blank stare and no response. Next time he walks by the dog, he does it again. First of all, I of course, do not want to be in a position where the dog bites him (but at this point I don't know how much I could blame the poor dog!) and Second of all - it's just plain NOT FAIR to the dog! He's never been treated like that and he doesn't understand.

 

Tonight I put DS in a timeout in his room for hitting the dog after I'd warned him about an hour earlier under NO uncertain circumstances, next time he did it he would be sitting in his room. He of course, freaked out. Said he was scared to sit in his room alone. He was VERY scared to be apart from me before the ABX, but much better with that now. Our house is also a bilevel and he can see us in the living room from his bedroom. I also went in and turned on all of the lights so it was very bright. I made him sit there for less than 10 minutes and then explained again why he was there and made him apologize to me (for not listening) and to the dog - ALA Supernanny. I still pretty much got a blank stare.

 

My general feel is that it is more of an impulse control issue, but could something like this be a tic behavior? To hit someone (even if it's a dog) else? He's not necessarily doing it to be mean, but it's hard enough at times that I'm sure it does hurt and with the dogs age, loss of sight and hearing, I'm sure it scares him.

 

Any suggestions on a way to handle this? Or do you think if I just consistently use the same approach every time with no leniency, he'll eventually respond?

 

Seems like every time I get one behavior or attitude under control, I'm figuring out something else!

[peglem]

Does your son know why he hits the dog? Can he tell you what happened in hindsight? Maybe you can work something out with your son- if he gets that impulse-he should do what to protect the dog? If your son doesn't know why this is happening, chances are good that he doesn't really want to hit the dog or be naughty, so maybe you and he can figure out someway to deal with it.

[MomWithOCDSon]

My son had his first episode beginning about 8 weeks ago. He's been on ABX about 4 weeks now. He is 6. Overall, he is showing some improvement. He is showing hardly any tics at all. He was experiencing downright scary rages - lasting up to a couple of hours. Those thank goodness have subsided. Overall, he is generally an unhappy child right now, very difficult to deal with. I work hard at keeping things calm and peaceful here, while finding a balance of not allowing a 6 year old to run the house (or OCD behaviors to run the house). since we are new to this we're still in the learning process.

 

We have a 13 year old Portugese Water Dog named Elton. For the past 2 or 3 weeks, every flippin time my DS walks by the dog, he hits the dog on the behind. Quite hard sometimes. The dog is VERY passive and has never bared a tooth or growled at DS, but the dog is old and not doing well physically himself. Besides that - he is a DOG and he has large, sharp teeth and can only take so much! Prior to PANDAS, DS knew better than this! I'm very upset by it. I've told him every single time - DO NOT hit the dog. I get a blank stare and no response. Next time he walks by the dog, he does it again. First of all, I of course, do not want to be in a position where the dog bites him (but at this point I don't know how much I could blame the poor dog!) and Second of all - it's just plain NOT FAIR to the dog! He's never been treated like that and he doesn't understand.

 

Tonight I put DS in a timeout in his room for hitting the dog after I'd warned him about an hour earlier under NO uncertain circumstances, next time he did it he would be sitting in his room. He of course, freaked out. Said he was scared to sit in his room alone. He was VERY scared to be apart from me before the ABX, but much better with that now. Our house is also a bilevel and he can see us in the living room from his bedroom. I also went in and turned on all of the lights so it was very bright. I made him sit there for less than 10 minutes and then explained again why he was there and made him apologize to me (for not listening) and to the dog - ALA Supernanny. I still pretty much got a blank stare.

 

My general feel is that it is more of an impulse control issue, but could something like this be a tic behavior? To hit someone (even if it's a dog) else? He's not necessarily doing it to be mean, but it's hard enough at times that I'm sure it does hurt and with the dogs age, loss of sight and hearing, I'm sure it scares him.

 

Any suggestions on a way to handle this? Or do you think if I just consistently use the same approach every time with no leniency, he'll eventually respond?

 

Seems like every time I get one behavior or attitude under control, I'm figuring out something else!

 

Have you talked to him about WHY he hits the dog every time he walks by it? Honestly, as someone with an OCD behavior kid at home, it almost sounds like a compulsion on his part . . . not too different from "just having" to touch the door frame on the way out of a room, or "just having" to lick his lips at a certain point in time. With my son's compulsions, he's not doing them to be naughty or because he chooses to do them; he really is compelled by the OCD response in his brain. So what if that's the case here?

 

Having been through it before we knew the behaviors were OCD, let alone PANDAS, I can tell you that standard discipline (ala Supernanny) won't tame the compulsion; that might be the reason behind the blank stare you're getting. In order to get him to stop this behavior, it might be more productive to use something of an ERP technique . . . something like accompany him walking past the dog, if he reaches out toward it, you could say "Stop" or something to get his attention and break the compulsion's "reverie" before he actually followed through. If you did that over and over again a few times, he might be able to terminate that particular compulsion (warning: it might show up somewhere else, but at least the dog wouldn't suffer any more!).

 

Just one idea . . . good luck!

[tantrums]

Yikes! I actually just asked him why he is doing it. Never thought to ask until you mentioned it. He said it is because he doesn't want Elton to live here anymore because he knows he is going to die soon and he doesn't want him to be here when it happens That's really sad! But at least maybe I have something I can work with. He wants a parrot because we had talked about getting one and I had told him they can live longer than people.

 

So he thinks if he can chase Elton away, then he can get a parrot and won't have to deal with a pet dying

[MomWithOCDSon]

Yikes! I actually just asked him why he is doing it. Never thought to ask until you mentioned it. He said it is because he doesn't want Elton to live here anymore because he knows he is going to die soon and he doesn't want him to be here when it happens That's really sad! But at least maybe I have something I can work with. He wants a parrot because we had talked about getting one and I had told him they can live longer than people.

 

So he thinks if he can chase Elton away, then he can get a parrot and won't have to deal with a pet dying

 

Oh man, kids never cease to amaze me. Here, he was operating out of some logic after all . . . sad logic, but logic.

[Suzan]

How long pets live is a huge factor with my girls too. It's one of the first things they ask when they start talking about a new pet they want. Funny, my younger dd wants a parrot. I'll have to ask her why. I'd bet this is one of the reasons too. They talk frequently about how old they will be when our dog dies. I am sorry you are going through this and that your son has such big thoughts on his mind.

 

Susan

[matis_mom]

Yikes! I actually just asked him why he is doing it. Never thought to ask until you mentioned it. He said it is because he doesn't want Elton to live here anymore because he knows he is going to die soon and he doesn't want him to be here when it happens That's really sad! But at least maybe I have something I can work with. He wants a parrot because we had talked about getting one and I had told him they can live longer than people.

 

So he thinks if he can chase Elton away, then he can get a parrot and won't have to deal with a pet dying

Wow, that shows you how anxious he is about death! I suppose you could take this as a teaching moment to learn about the value of life, even for a dog, and how he should treat them well and help make their last days pleasant. I would avoid talking about the fact that he has not much longer to live, and focus on how good a pet he's been, how sweet and calm he is, etc. And I would go ahead and get the parrot now, to take the focus off the dog.

If that doesn't work, another thing you might want to consider, if it's an option, is to have someone else take care of the dog for a while?

Even though I am not much of an animal lover, I think is important FOR YOUR SON not to be allowed to mistreat the dog. I know if it's a compulsion he can't help it, so just removing the dog may be the best option, and it will show him that sometimes we need to separate ourselves from things we can't control.

I think unfortunatelly for our PANDAS kids, OCD is something they are going to struggle with all their lives, so it's never to early to start teaching coping strategies.

 

Hope the new parrot does it!

 

Isabel

[tantrums]

Oh let me say - I DO NOT want a parrot! LOL! Never wanted a bird! I actually want a Great Dane. I think this would be a good time to get another dog, which is why we've been discussing another pet. DH differs on that opinion. I think we're leaning towards ferrets actually as a compromise. Or a kitten, but I have concerns over that - me the declawing issue (knowing what I do now I don't want to do it, but don't want a cat with claws in my house), DH wants a small dog, which I don't particularly like and DS wants a bird bc they live so long.

 

The only person I have to take my dog really can't anymore. Last time he was there, he peed ALL OVER her house the entire time he was there due to anxiety I think it's part of the aging. He's really losing his mind. It's very sad. She has a Pit Bull that won't leave him alone wanting to play and he can't take it anymore. She's my best friend and I will say, that Pit has changed my view of Pit's BIG TIME, but now I have all new fear with my DS and that dog He's a big lush, but I still have that ingrown fear of the breed and wouldn't trust him. With my DS hitting dogs now, Oh Boy!

 

I'm trying the approach of reminding him NOT to hit whenever he is near the dog. Seems to be working. The funny thing is, I noticed last night that whenever he accidentally bumps the dog, he apologizes to him. IE - we were playing ball in the house with a beach ball and everytime the dog got bumped DS said he was sorry to him and pet him nicely. Of course, Dog doesnt' have the sense to stay out of the way!

 

Honestly, it LOOKS like a compulsion to me, the way he does it without thinking, so I don't know! My DS can be a great manipulator, so it's very hard to say. But I know I cannot allow him to terrorize the dog It's something I obviously have to keep a very close eye on and hope we can work with it QUICKLY!

 

It is so sad how obsessed with death he his! He came home from food shopping with DH a little while ago and having driven past a cemetary asked me "do you go in the ground when you are dead"? I think a large part of it is normal 6 year old learning and curiousity, but still SO HARD to answer! We believe in Buddhism and I'm realizing it almost makes it harder to explain that belief. I think the idea of a heaven would be easier for a child to handle. Right now, I'm getting very good at avoidance and redirection, which I'm not all that comfortable with or proud of.

[matis_mom]

Right now, I'm getting very good at avoidance and redirection, which I'm not all that comfortable with or proud of.

Well, avoidance and redirection can be used as coping skills too, so don't beat yourself up over it, you are doing what you can

Maybe your son can replace the hitting with something like a nice patting and saying "you are such a good dog, I'll sure miss you!" Try to change his anxiety into compassion somehow.

[FallingApart]

Hi there,

 

Your question is very interesting because we have the same situation. But ours is with the cat. It took me almost an entire year to figure out that our situation was OCD. She seriously has/had a compulsion to make the cat squeal/meow every time she passes him. DH and I are horrified by this. We spent the entire year explaining the correct way to treat a pet. (We have had pets since before she was born) Nothing we did all year long seemed to help. However, we had a stroke of luck just recently. DD just had her bday and turned 4. She asked for a 4real kitty and we gave it to her. Her birthday coincided with a relatively healthy time. We were able to tell her that this new kitty was her kitty and the real cat is mommy and daddy's. She isn't allowed to touch our kitty anymore. Now, when she reaches out to whack the cat (which still happens) we tell her this and it seems to jog her memory. The cat is still getting more bad attention than he deserves, but things are much better.

 

When you mention that your son associates the dog with dying you make me think of something. I know that most people's PANDAS episodes started with a clear link to strep. But ours started exactly timed with the death of a prominent family member. DH and I have consistently gone back to this as a trigger point. Your son's words really strike a dhord with me....

[Suzan]

It is so sad how obsessed with death he his! He came home from food shopping with DH a little while ago and having driven past a cemetary asked me "do you go in the ground when you are dead"? I think a large part of it is normal 6 year old learning and curiousity, but still SO HARD to answer! We believe in Buddhism and I'm realizing it almost makes it harder to explain that belief. I think the idea of a heaven would be easier for a child to handle. Right now, I'm getting very good at avoidance and redirection, which I'm not all that comfortable with or proud of.

 

My girls went through this stage for a long time. They were 3 and 4 years old and we were talking about where the blood goes when you die, how long it takes to die, how long it takes your body to decompose, whether they should choose an urn or a grave, how they would prefer to die, the list just went on and on. I always assumed it was because my dd8 is a twin who's twin died after they were born and that taking about his death brought on all the questions but now I assume it was their preoccupation with death due to PANDAS. Sometimes it was done with no emotion and other times they would be crying that they didn't want to die, didn't want me to die. I used to freak out because here is this little kid in the back asking about death and then she would say "Are you speeding? You better slow down". I thought maybe she had a line into the afterlife or something and could forsee a car accident! But then we found out she was having seizures and I really do think she had a window into the afterlife but that's a whole different story.

 

Susan

[ajcire]

Ok, this is not funny but if I can make you smile for but a second... When we passed a cemetary with my son when he was 4 (don't think it had anything to do with pandas.. just a question he had) he looked at my dh and said, "How do you get in there?" Of course I was in complete panic because I thought for sure he was asking how you get buried in the cemetary and I didn't want to talk about that with him..... My dh stopped and thought a minute and said, "There is an entrance over there" I held my breath but my ds seemed satisfied with the answer and didn't mention it again. Phew...

 

When my dh's grandmother died my ds was 5 at the time and asked my dh how old she was... he told her 88. He quickly did the math and told my mother, "You have xx many more years before you die too" Gasp.

[Megs_Mom]

I'm so sorry that your son has PANDAS - I know how overwhelming experience can be. I remember wondering how I went from being a "good mom" to one that had no clue how to help or discipline my child anymore. In the space of a week! OCD is very frightening for our family - and can be very debilitating for our daughter in major episodes. However, we have learned many tools over time, and now feel fairly confident in being able to balance expectations in and out of an episode. One of the firm rules that we have been able to live with is that no one in our house will harm another person or animal - or themselves. I think this is a really important expectation - we might not always make it, but that is the goal.

 

So then you might to how to manage this! Once an issue was identified in our house, we would talk about it and expectations in simple language and ask her if she would have any trouble following the rule. So in this case, discuss the dog with him & what the punishment will consistently be. We used the language of OCD to say "I am sorry that OCD (we called it the worryman) is causing you to feel like hitting the dog, but this is not allowed. So you will have to boss this back, or accept a time out (or whatever)". We did not yell at her about it or add to the situation, just tried to be matter of fact about it. If possible, we would offer her an alternative. So in this case, you might allow him to ask that the dog be kenneled. Or you could have a stuffed dog that he would be allowed to hit. We often modeled behavior extensively both BEFORE we expected it - in a calm moment - and during a moment. Also, afterwards, we would do role playing (different people playing your son and the dog) and model saying how we felt, what we did, and how that worked out. We tried to be clear that while we knew this was OCD and not our daughter, we still could not accept the behavior.

 

If this is a compulsion, and it does sound like one, then it will go on to the next thing if the dog is "out of the way". So while you might be able to board the dog, what about his sister, mom, best friend? That what we'd always try to keep in mind. That no matter how bad OCD may be making you feel, or how hard the compulsion may be, that you cannot hard others or yourself under any circumstances. No excuses.

 

So that is the tough line. You may have to ease into it, and I agree that deliberately practicing going by the dog is a great way to start. You might practice walking together past the dog, 10 different times in a 30 minute period - every day for a week. Each time, you can pet the dog, or give the dog a treat, or whatever you think is appropriate. If he can pet the dog gently, I would encourage a reward system for him, that he knows about ahead of time. We get much more response from positive systems than negative & try to set up the house such that she will not get into trouble if at all possible. But we hugely reward success. So petting the dog gently might earn a starburst candy, or a ticket for extra 15 min of TV, or a point towards a family Pizza night that is worth 10 points, or whatever. Getting the dog away from him when not in a practice session would be kind to the dog, if practical. Once he can consistently do this with your help, then you can try setting up a reward system for when you are not right there.

 

Good luck - I am glad to hear that the rages are already past & hope that you see continuing improvement.

[MomWithOCDSon]

Oh let me say - I DO NOT want a parrot! LOL! Never wanted a bird! I actually want a Great Dane. I think this would be a good time to get another dog, which is why we've been discussing another pet. DH differs on that opinion. I think we're leaning towards ferrets actually as a compromise. Or a kitten, but I have concerns over that - me the declawing issue (knowing what I do now I don't want to do it, but don't want a cat with claws in my house), DH wants a small dog, which I don't particularly like and DS wants a bird bc they live so long.

 

The only person I have to take my dog really can't anymore. Last time he was there, he peed ALL OVER her house the entire time he was there due to anxiety I think it's part of the aging. He's really losing his mind. It's very sad. She has a Pit Bull that won't leave him alone wanting to play and he can't take it anymore. She's my best friend and I will say, that Pit has changed my view of Pit's BIG TIME, but now I have all new fear with my DS and that dog He's a big lush, but I still have that ingrown fear of the breed and wouldn't trust him. With my DS hitting dogs now, Oh Boy!

 

I'm trying the approach of reminding him NOT to hit whenever he is near the dog. Seems to be working. The funny thing is, I noticed last night that whenever he accidentally bumps the dog, he apologizes to him. IE - we were playing ball in the house with a beach ball and everytime the dog got bumped DS said he was sorry to him and pet him nicely. Of course, Dog doesnt' have the sense to stay out of the way!

 

Honestly, it LOOKS like a compulsion to me, the way he does it without thinking, so I don't know! My DS can be a great manipulator, so it's very hard to say. But I know I cannot allow him to terrorize the dog It's something I obviously have to keep a very close eye on and hope we can work with it QUICKLY!

 

It is so sad how obsessed with death he his! He came home from food shopping with DH a little while ago and having driven past a cemetary asked me "do you go in the ground when you are dead"? I think a large part of it is normal 6 year old learning and curiousity, but still SO HARD to answer! We believe in Buddhism and I'm realizing it almost makes it harder to explain that belief. I think the idea of a heaven would be easier for a child to handle. Right now, I'm getting very good at avoidance and redirection, which I'm not all that comfortable with or proud of.

 

Perhaps slightly on a tangent, but . . .

 

I'd just like to say that I grew up among a menagerie . . . pets of absolutely ALL kinds, from tropical fish to horses. AND we had a Mexican yellowhead parrot named Chico who was lovely, funny (sometimes downright hysterical) member of the family . . . until he hit puberty! (Seems humans aren't the only species that turn into monsters at the approaching of the Big P!) My mom had always been his favorite, and he could do her voice perfectly; they exchanged kisses and sweet words, he would let everyone in the family hold him, ride on the dog's back, etc. Then when puberty hit, all he wanted was a mate! And he got nasty with everyone else! Nearly took a chunk of my mom's cheek out with what used to be a standard "kiss" on the cheek! So after almost 14 years, we had to part with him to a breeder who would mate him.

 

Our family got a beagle when my son was about 18 months old, so they have basically grown up together. We have pictures of him at 2 and 3, actually holding her and petting her. I'm guessing, however, that he hasn't actually touched her again since the age of 6, when he was first diagnosed with OCD. How were we supposed to know that this sweet, well-behaved puppy would turn into a full-blown, greasy hound dog with a musk and oil to go with it that re-appears 5 minutes after a bath?! Our son can't stand to touch her now at all! That tends to prevent hitting or mistreatment!