Immune workups and antibiotics

[P_Mom]

From what I have been hearing and disucussing lately is that many of these childrens low IGG's (or sub-calsses) are due to antibiotic use, which supresses the immune system.....not a general deficiency.

 

When my kids first started with PANDAS, 6 months after onset, their IGGs were 900's..........a year later, and a year of antibiotics, they were 5-6 hundreds. Still considered good, but, is it due to PANDAS or the antibiotics????

[peglem]

From what I have been hearing and disucussing lately is that many of these childrens low IGG's (or sub-calsses) are due to antibiotic use, which supresses the immune system.....not a general deficiency.

 

I haven't heard that low IgG can be caused by antibiotic use, but I have wondered about it. But, I don't think antibiotics suppress the immune system, at least I have never heard that. My understanding is that abx impair bacterial reproduction or disable/weaken it in other ways so that the immune system is more able to get rid of it.

My daughter's IgG levels were not checked until after quite a bit of antibiotic use (but not yet prophylactic), when we began to wonder why she always tested + when not on abx...and why her immune system was not ridding her of the strep, even with the help of abx. So I'm supposing IgG was already low before abx usage. When IgG was tested 2 years ago, for the 1st time...it was below normal range. When tested just 2 months ago (after being on prophylactic abx for over a year) it was even lower. The immunologist declares that its not a true immune deficiency or she'd be having trouble with being ill all the time, to the point of having to be hospitalized frequently. And he says she'd be having trouble with more than just strep.

[P_Mom]

Thanks! There are several articles out there that state that antibiotics supress the immune system (my local doc agreed).....I am running out to Church...however, when I have time later...I will post the links to them.

 

It is interesting and makes me wonder if the antibiotics are the reason SOME of these kids numbers are low....like mine dropped considerably (both kids) after taking proph antibiotics.???

 

I wonder if they would rise back up it the antibiotics were discontinued?

[melanie]

From what I have been hearing and disucussing lately is that many of these childrens low IGG's (or sub-calsses) are due to antibiotic use, which supresses the immune system.....not a general deficiency.

 

When my kids first started with PANDAS, 6 months after onset, their IGGs were 900's..........a year later, and a year of antibiotics, they were 5-6 hundreds. Still considered good, but, is it due to PANDAS or the antibiotics????

 

 

dannys IgG levels are below normal and were way before he started on clindimicin.I even asked that question to Dr T .So I dont think that thats always true.But Hey I am confused by how this whole thing works anyway. I just want them all to get well.

 

Melanie

[P_Mom]

Is Clindimycin the only antibiotic he ever took? Does he have any past history with antibiotics before his immune work-up?

[P_Mom]

Just one of numerous articles on how antibiotics supress the immune system.......

 

Is that also how they help our kids?? Besides helping to get rid of the strep??

Is this why most of our kids have immune work-ups on the low side??? Would they still if taken off and checked a while later??

Like I stated..before antibiotics....HIGH scores for immune work-ups....year of antibiotics....low scores!!! Coincidence??? Hummmm...

 

"Although antibiotics are actually designed to help the immune system work well, this is so only when the usage is for a short duration. Studies show that long-term antibiotics actually suppress the immune system. There are several reasons that are responsible for the negative effects of antibiotics. Firstly, it is important to comprehend that actually antibiotics do not make the immune system stronger. They merely act as a replacement for one of its functions, which is destruction of harmful bacteria. However, just like an organ or a muscle that weakens when not in constant use, the same principal stands true for the immune system as well. Therefore, when an introduced agent does one of its jobs, the immune system performs that job feebly once the agent leaves the body. Thus, one must be careful with the consumption of antibiotics as they weaken the system, meaning that the patient is more prone to infection than before he or she took the antibiotics. Temporarily, the infection may be killed, but one can get re-infected easily. When this re-infection is combined with a more resistant strain of the bacteria that caused the original infection, it can be very difficult to deal with. This is why someone who takes antibiotics to cure a bacteria based disease may catch the same disease, only with more severe symptoms, at a later time. Secondly, antibiotics cannot differentiate between the harmful bacteria and helpful bacteria and cells. Therefore, they end up killing both kinds of bacteria. Certain strains of bacteria in the digestive tract are essential to digest food and produce healthy vitamins. The destruction of such bacteria results in vitamin loss, diarrhea, parasitic infection and the development of allergies. Thirdly, over the years, research in the field of Biology has highlighted that the evolution of bacteria, viruses, and hosts have more or less been in synchronization with each other. Every time a bacterium or virus became slowly stronger, the immune system has shown proportional reactions by becoming stronger as well. However, an over dosage of antibiotics can create stronger strains of bacteria that even a healthy immune system is not prepared to fight."

 

 

I guess I am thinking that many of our kids diagnosed with an immune deficiency actually do not have a true deficiency.....just a supression due to antibiotics!!?? No doctor can explain the drop in my kids from 900 before antibiotics (after PANDAS started) to 500's after about two years of proph. antibiotics. .......except one doc suggested the antibiotics....that is what got me thinking and researching. No doc has suggested (we have seen several) an immune deficiency with slightly low IGG...one child with a slightly low IGG sub-class 1.....and failed S. pneumonia titers......no concerns.

 

I am really believing (for MY kids) the drop is due to the antibiotics!! (which, actually, lessens my concern...I don't want them to have an immune deficiency)

[faith]

So is suppression of the immune system what we actually want? is that a good thing? with PANDAS, we don't want to 'boost" the immune system, we want to supress it? am I getting that right?

[peglem]

Where is that article from and is it based on research? I mean, is it followed by a list of research articles that support this conclusion?

 

Just one of numerous articles on how antibiotics supress the immune system.......

 

Is that also how they help our kids?? Besides helping to get rid of the strep??

Is this why most of our kids have immune work-ups on the low side??? Would they still if taken off and checked a while later??

Like I stated..before antibiotics....HIGH scores for immune work-ups....year of antibiotics....low scores!!! Coincidence??? Hummmm...

 

"Although antibiotics are actually designed to help the immune system work well, this is so only when the usage is for a short duration. Studies show that long-term antibiotics actually suppress the immune system. There are several reasons that are responsible for the negative effects of antibiotics. Firstly, it is important to comprehend that actually antibiotics do not make the immune system stronger. They merely act as a replacement for one of its functions, which is destruction of harmful bacteria. However, just like an organ or a muscle that weakens when not in constant use, the same principal stands true for the immune system as well. Therefore, when an introduced agent does one of its jobs, the immune system performs that job feebly once the agent leaves the body. Thus, one must be careful with the consumption of antibiotics as they weaken the system, meaning that the patient is more prone to infection than before he or she took the antibiotics. Temporarily, the infection may be killed, but one can get re-infected easily. When this re-infection is combined with a more resistant strain of the bacteria that caused the original infection, it can be very difficult to deal with. This is why someone who takes antibiotics to cure a bacteria based disease may catch the same disease, only with more severe symptoms, at a later time. Secondly, antibiotics cannot differentiate between the harmful bacteria and helpful bacteria and cells. Therefore, they end up killing both kinds of bacteria. Certain strains of bacteria in the digestive tract are essential to digest food and produce healthy vitamins. The destruction of such bacteria results in vitamin loss, diarrhea, parasitic infection and the development of allergies. Thirdly, over the years, research in the field of Biology has highlighted that the evolution of bacteria, viruses, and hosts have more or less been in synchronization with each other. Every time a bacterium or virus became slowly stronger, the immune system has shown proportional reactions by becoming stronger as well. However, an over dosage of antibiotics can create stronger strains of bacteria that even a healthy immune system is not prepared to fight."

 

 

I guess I am thinking that many of our kids diagnosed with an immune deficiency actually do not have a true deficiency.....just a supression due to antibiotics!!?? No doctor can explain the drop in my kids from 900 before antibiotics (after PANDAS started) to 500's after about two years of proph. antibiotics. .......except one doc suggested the antibiotics....that is what got me thinking and researching. No doc has suggested (we have seen several) an immune deficiency with slightly low IGG...one child with a slightly low IGG sub-class 1.....and failed S. pneumonia titers......no concerns.

 

I am really believing (for MY kids) the drop is due to the antibiotics!! (which, actually, lessens my concern...I don't want them to have an immune deficiency)

[nevergiveup]

Wow, lots to think about but I think you may be oversimplifying things. My dd had low Igg's in the 400's before she was prescribed a year of omnicef for chronic sinusitis and while on high dose daily abx for one year she also took probiotiics and her IGG went higher up in the 500's. So this philosophy didn't work for her. I think you should read the article "Hypogammaglobulinemia". By Lin and Shliozberg to help really understand why the doc is saying your child doesn't have an immune deficiency. On page 8 and 9 it has a very detail desc of how to determine CVID. For CVID the IGG's must be two std dev. below the mean and also accompanied with a low IGM or IGA or both. Plus the person should have chronic infections, gastro issues, and some with autoimmune markers or disease. To get diagnosed with a defiency the patient should have infections "severe enough to warrant the EXPENSE of IGG replacement. ". There is no magic number to determine an immune def, just because you have a low number of IGG's doesn't mean those IGG's aren't high quality IGG's. Meaning that if the abx lowered your IGG's they still function well if there is an infection. Plus you can have high iggs with a low subclass two and be more sickly than someone with low igg's. Quantity and quality are key to diagnosis. Some kids are chronically sick with infection and have igg's in the 500 and receive IVIG therapy, some have IVIG in the high 400's and are rarely sick and do not have an immune def. I am not sure you can ever say with or without abx that your child has an immune def based off of their igg's levels, (Unless they are in the 100 or 200 range. In addition CVID is acquired as you age, little kids don't usually have low markers its usually seen later as they age. So if the abx lowers igg's, but prevents panda attacks, and potentially does not hurt the bodies ability to mount an attack against infection, I think that abx is worth it. But to assume abx is causing an immune deficiency is not correct, it may lower IGG's but an immune defiency is much more than low IGG's. I would highly recommend all parents seeing an immune doc read the above article, it was very worthwhile and given to me by an immune doc. And yes, no one wants their child to have an immune def, it carries a large risk of developing lymphoma and other autoimmune illness.

 

So I just wanted to clarify, lowering IGG's is not an immune def. Its just lowering IGG's. Also steroids lower IGG too. Docs don't diagnose immune def's from blood markers only, but insurance co's require the blood markers as evidence of disease for payment.

[P_Mom]

All I am trying to say is that I believe the long term use of antibiotics has lowered MY children's immune results. I do not believe they have/had an immune deficiency. I was trying to figure out why their numbers dropped so much....now I believe I know.....please keep in mind...I KNOW this does not stand for ALL these kids....I am just posting on MINE and giving some people something to think about.

[peglem]

All I am trying to say is that I believe the long term use of antibiotics has lowered MY children's immune results. I do not believe they have/had an immune deficiency. I was trying to figure out why their numbers dropped so much....now I believe I know.....please keep in mind...I KNOW this does not stand for ALL these kids....I am just posting on MINE and giving some people something to think about.

Well, I'm intrigued by that...not trying to grill you or demand proof. I just wanted to investigate it a little more. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted by how little information there seems to be on how the immune system is influenced by environmental factors...this is what worries me about vaccines, that they can't have foreseen possible negative consequences because they simply don't know. And yet, we are constantly officially assured that they are perfectly safe.

Also, abx clearly have some influence on hormones (it is well known that abx can interfere with birth control pills, for instance), but there seems to be almost no research into how/why this influence occurs.

And there seems to be indications that hormonal changes in a woman's cycle and pregnancy have consequences in the immune system as well- but, again, there is very little research there.

[nevergiveup]

P.Mom,

 

My kid's IGG was up also from age 5 through 8, then on abx up higher during age 9, dropped off age 10, 11, 12 and she had her worst PANDAS attack at 12. At that point they were lower again. I am not sure I would dismiss this as abx, when there is an autoimmune condition the body tries to compensate for it and the immune system changes. The immune system will lower one marker to try to compensate if another part of the immune system is overproducing. When an autoimmune disease is in process and if your child has high antibodies in Cunninghams tests I wouldn't dismiss this as a sign of abx, it could all be related to PANDAS. Don't give your doc an excuse not to dig deeper.

[P_Mom]

Funny thing about it is....my son had PANDAS for over 2 years before being diagnosed or treated with anything.....and when he first got his diagnosis, he got an immune work-up at the same time. All levels were on the high end after 2 years of untreated PANDAS. He was placed on antibiotics that day...next immune check (after 2 years of antibiotics and no further PANDAS episodes)...low .????

[nevergiveup]

My dd also was in remission for two years. Her igg's also lowered and she then again had a pandas attack. I am not sure I would correlate to abx. Anyway can you post the abx documentation or articles of lowering igg's and I will run it by my dad and uncle both immunologists and see what they say. Did the doc run any autoimmune markers for your son? ana, c4? Why are you at the immune doc testing since your son had high igg's in past visits and no other issues for 2 years. Does he have chronic infection? How old is he? Recently there was a posting here on acn about strep lowering iggs, and I know steroids lowers it, several studies have shown probiotics raise it. How many times did you have igg levels taken? I tracked my dd's levels pre abx and pre ivig for many years because she suffered so many infections. They were so much higher at age 7, 8, and slowly dropped over 3 years. However 900 to 500 is a big drop. Could something have cause the igg level to have been inflated on the first draw like recent infection?

 

 

Funny thing about it is....my son had PANDAS for over 2 years before being diagnosed or treated with anything.....and when he first got his diagnosis, he got an immune work-up at the same time. All levels were on the high end after 2 years of untreated PANDAS. He was placed on antibiotics that day...next immune check (after 2 years of antibiotics and no further PANDAS episodes)...low .????

[P_Mom]

I don't have specific articles to give you regarding IGG's and antibiotics....just many that state antibiotics supress the immune system...just goggle it. However, I am not in the business these days of going by what research is on things out there or not....just look at what we are dealing with regarding PANDAS....know what I mean??!! It gives me ideas....but, the medical community certaintly does not know everything....wonder if they ever studied the long term effects of antibiotics on the immune system? Many of these kids have low numbers........with no deficiency...no constant/history of illness. One boy diagnosed CVID with minimally low numbers (same as my sons)...had no history of recurrent infections...great lungs...and IVIG is not helping him.....COULD it just be the long term antibiotics?? Just my curious mind. Why not???

 

When PANDAS first hit...I found a doc in Ohio to give proph. antibiotics...through my research, I knew we needed it. He was an immunologist and wanted some info. on the kids and ran an immune panel "for the heck of it." Then, that day they went on antibiotics. Tests came back high end for both kids.....one son had had PANDAS for two years....the other 6 months. 2 years later of antibiotics, and because of all I read on here...back to the immunologist for another check. Low Igg's and Igg sub 1 for one child...low Igg for the other. (Not "low enough to treat") No PANDAS episodes (or strep) in between...just antibiotics.

 

No, no chronic infections.

No reason for high levels ar first draw...kids were very healthy.

 

Just my thoughts.