Is this possibly an example of ocd that I am missing?

[ajcire]

I have concerns about my NON pandas dd. I just had some standard bloodwork from the ped done on her and it's not all back (lyme, mono, celiac panel...).. the aso titers was back and only 121 (she had typical strep throat both in Sept. and October) I have been finding her impossible, emotional, just constantly a battle and on top of that she always says she doesn't feel well. Her saying she doesn't feel well is the original reason that I had the blood work last week. He just wanted to rule out any of the more obvious medical things first.

 

That said, just now my 2 year old was blocking one way for my daughter to go because he was laying on the floor.. she stood there whining and trying to maneauver her way over him. I told her to just go the other way and she refused. I brought her around the other way and she was absolutely hysterical saying she had to go the other way. I asked why and she just said she had to and she was mad at me and not going to tell me why. She yelled at me a bit and then went full circle to where she would have been if she had stepped over my son... she said it was to get her book but that was there but she never actually touched or took the book.

 

Now she is calm and I just asked about it... asked if she felt she had to go that way and she said yes.. but she said it was to get her book. She just smirked when I said that she didn't even touch the book. I asked how she felt when she couldn't do it and she said sad. I asked if she has been feeling like there are other things she has to do but she didn't really understand.

 

I am looking too much into this right? She has no tics or ocd that I know of, nothing obvious and with her it's just her behavior that is making me nervous. Obviously if I was not already familiar with pandas from my son I would not even be thinking this way.

[Suzan]

Sounds like something that would happen at our house. It's hard to say with a 2 yr old but I'd say it's something to keep your eye on. I don't have any reference to "normal" but I spent years thinking things my kids did were normal, just on the extreme side. It might be helpful to start to keep a list of things she does and the date to keep track in the event that things start to get bad. I wish I had better record of what happened when.

 

 

Susan

[ajcire]

I think I confused my post. My daughter is 5... my 2 year old was blocking her though.

 

Sounds like something that would happen at our house. It's hard to say with a 2 yr old but I'd say it's something to keep your eye on. I don't have any reference to "normal" but I spent years thinking things my kids did were normal, just on the extreme side. It might be helpful to start to keep a list of things she does and the date to keep track in the event that things start to get bad. I wish I had better record of what happened when.

 

 

Susan

[sww817]

I agree with Suzan about keeping a log of behaviors. My son is 4 and he gets very rigid with his thinking when he is in an episode. Just like what you described. It could be typical for a five year old but it would be worth noting and keeping watch.

[MomWithOCDSon]

I have concerns about my NON pandas dd. I just had some standard bloodwork from the ped done on her and it's not all back (lyme, mono, celiac panel...).. the aso titers was back and only 121 (she had typical strep threat both in Sept. and October) I have been finding her impossible, emotional, just constantly a battle and on top of that she always says she doesn't feel well. Her saying she doesn't feel well is the original reason that I had the blood work last week. He just wanted to rule out any of the more obvious medical things first.

 

That said, just now my 2 year old was blocking one way for my daughter to go because he was laying on the floor.. she stood there whining and trying to maneauver her way over him. I told her to just go the other way and she refused. I brought her around the other way and she was absolutely hysterical saying she had to go the other way. I asked why and she just said she had to and she was mad at me and not going to tell me why. She yelled at me a bit and then went full circle to where she would have been if she had stepped over my son... she said it was to get her book but that was there but she never actually touched or took the book.

 

Now she is calm and I just asked about it... asked if she felt she had to go that way and she said yes.. but she said it was to get her book. She just smirked when I said that she didn't even touch the book. I asked how she felt when she couldn't do it and she said sad. I asked if she has been feeling like there are other things she has to do but she didn't really understand.

 

I am looking too much into this right? She has no tics or ocd that I know of, nothing obvious and with her it's just her behavior that is making me nervous. Obviously if I was not already familiar with pandas from my son I would not even be thinking this way.

 

I have to say, this sounds very familiar. Long before our son was diagnosed with OCD, let along PANDAS, we saw a lot of this behavior. We initially thought is was just willfulness, "having his way," and "testing his limits," and we didn't attribute anything to OCD until a more classic symptom appeared (hand-washing).

 

For instance, as young as 3, when we would pick him up or drop him off at preschool, he HAD to open the door himself; if we were coming in right behind another family and they opened the door for us as a courtesy, or if he was lagging behind and I got to the door first and pushed it open, he'd have a complete and utter meltdown. It was unreal. We eventually learned to just hang back if there were others immediately in front of us, so that the door could close all the way again and then he could open it himself, and to always just give him the opportunity to open it, even if we (his parents) arrived at the door first.

 

We also didn't realize that we were interrupting "rituals" when we would try to hurry him along through washing up for bed, or getting dressed in the morning, etc. His rituals were never especially obvious, and he never counted things or arrayed them in a special order or anything. But if we called upstairs to him during one of these times, or walked in and, say, tried to get him to put on his shirt before his socks or something, he'd explode.

 

OCD behaviors, whether they're OCD or induced by PANDAS, can creep in without you even hardly realizing. Like Suzan said, I would keep an eye on her and maybe keep a journal of if/when similar events take place. That way, you won't have to second-guess yourself as much. Over time, it will become more obvious whether or not these instances occur with any regularity and impact the way your daughter behaves in the world, or if its just a momentary "quirk," without pattern or need to be concerned.

 

Good luck!

[momto2pandas]

Was the 2 year old willfully blocking the way? We've seen a lot of this kind of thing in our house (ages 6 and 3) but I've attributed most of it just to typical sibling issues (younger one trying to yank the chain of the older one). When we have other families over, I see plenty of this kind of thing in their kids, too. Wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on it, though.

 

 

I have concerns about my NON pandas dd. I just had some standard bloodwork from the ped done on her and it's not all back (lyme, mono, celiac panel...).. the aso titers was back and only 121 (she had typical strep throat both in Sept. and October) I have been finding her impossible, emotional, just constantly a battle and on top of that she always says she doesn't feel well. Her saying she doesn't feel well is the original reason that I had the blood work last week. He just wanted to rule out any of the more obvious medical things first.

 

That said, just now my 2 year old was blocking one way for my daughter to go because he was laying on the floor.. she stood there whining and trying to maneauver her way over him. I told her to just go the other way and she refused. I brought her around the other way and she was absolutely hysterical saying she had to go the other way. I asked why and she just said she had to and she was mad at me and not going to tell me why. She yelled at me a bit and then went full circle to where she would have been if she had stepped over my son... she said it was to get her book but that was there but she never actually touched or took the book.

 

Now she is calm and I just asked about it... asked if she felt she had to go that way and she said yes.. but she said it was to get her book. She just smirked when I said that she didn't even touch the book. I asked how she felt when she couldn't do it and she said sad. I asked if she has been feeling like there are other things she has to do but she didn't really understand.

 

I am looking too much into this right? She has no tics or ocd that I know of, nothing obvious and with her it's just her behavior that is making me nervous. Obviously if I was not already familiar with pandas from my son I would not even be thinking this way.

[thereishope]

Yes, we had that too. They get stuck on the idea they MUST go a certain way and cannot change it at all. When you tried to physically move her that was the anxiety felt when they cannot complete the OCD. A five year old should not react like that to that extreme. Maybe get upset and yell at the 2 year old and get annoyed, but not a meltdown when you tried to intervene. But my 5 year old did when OCD was controlling it.

 

What has also occurred here is while he was walking to a destination, if you talked to him while going, he'd flip out an have to walk back to the original spot to do it all over again. He also set his own rules for certain rooms in the house he had to pass. maybe he had to crawl down the hall, spin as he passed a room. And if he couldn't complete that, back to beginning he went.

 

Overall, if she has anxiety now and again, it shouldn't be something too nervous about but when it is accompanied by a meltdown or taking more than 5 minutes to overcome w/o ever giving in to the need, then the red flag needs to be raised.

[ajcire]

Was the 2 year old willfully blocking the way? We've seen a lot of this kind of thing in our house (ages 6 and 3) but I've attributed most of it just to typical sibling issues (younger one trying to yank the chain of the older one). When we have other families over, I see plenty of this kind of thing in their kids, too. Wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on it, though.

 

 

My 2 year old was not intentionally blocking her at first but yeah, he knew he could have moved and didn't jump at the opportunity (he is 2 1/2 and fully understands that stuff)... I have no reason to suspect pandas in him yet because right now he is just doing the 2 year old tantrumy stuff. I mean he is willful and has strong reactions to things but at this point I figure it's typical as well as he clearly has learned the foot stomp from my older ones.

 

But yes, my older 2 ages 5 1/2 and 7 completely push each others buttons. I think that is some of what I am getting so nervous about. I do attribute some of my 7 year olds nastiness to his sister to pandas. I know some is just normal too.... He can go from being completely sweet and kind to the complete opposite without much notice.. and she now reacts to everything with such an extreme reaction... but is it learned or not, I don't know.... and I keep thinking what a ridiculous combination to have more than one pandas child who push each others buttons and randomly meltdown. I just am not sure what stuff my daughter is learning from her older brother and what stuff is her own personality and what stuff is just her being 5 and what stuff she might not be able to control.

 

I know it's awful but I almost hope that if she does have pandas that she gives me a clear cut sign...some clear cut ocd or a tic. It's awful that I would hope for that but it's not that I hope for it, it's that I hope if this is it that I will have a sign that screams at me THIS IS PANDAS.

[thereishope]

I think the more learned behaviors of siblings would be to get their way or get you to give them something. They interpret what the sibling does as a form of parental manipulation. Often the parent will give the PANDAS child more affection and attention during an exacerbation or they will give the PANDAS child more of what they want because they hope to give that child happiness in the time of chaos. Not that the don't love the non-PANDAS child, but is just part of the instinct. I admit, I did it. I saw some learned behvaior in my 2 other kids (ages 3 and 8) while my 5 year old would be in crisis mode. But that learned behavior the siblings showed did fade away as my PANDAS son recovered.

 

What you described doesn't sound like a learned behavior to me, from a 5 year old. Now if the 2 year old did that, it would be more acceptable.

[ajcire]

Thanks Vickie. I just hung up with my mother and was telling her about something that happened at my dd's dance class yesterday... a little girl had a meltdown about something, just sobby and emotional... but the grandmother there said, "Oh I wonder if she feels ok, it's so unlike her" which is when it hit me that it is a normal behavior but not on a daily constant level and I am realizing that every single day, every time I ask her to do something, every time she gets a little frustrated.

 

I am just not sure what to do with this... how can something that is not clear be treated. I am going to be seeing Dr. T with my son in a few weeks and I am going to just ask him his thoughts on this too. I feel like I am starting to blame any of children's issues on pandas and that maybe I am just being crazy

 

Plus if it turns out she does have it, you can imagine how crazy I will be watching my 2 year old and wondering when things are going to go wrong for him.

 

I think the more learned behaviors of siblings would be to get their way or get you to give them something. They interpret what the sibling does as a form of parental manipulation. Often the parent will give the PANDAS child more affection and attention during an exacerbation or they will give the PANDAS child more of what they want because they hope to give that child happiness in the time of chaos. Not that the don't love the non-PANDAS child, but is just part of the instinct. I admit, I did it. I saw some learned behvaior in my 2 other kids (ages 3 and 8) while my 5 year old would be in crisis mode. But that learned behavior the siblings showed did fade away as my PANDAS son recovered.

 

What you described doesn't sound like a learned behavior to me, from a 5 year old. Now if the 2 year old did that, it would be more acceptable.

[thereishope]

I think it's okay to worry about the other kids' behaviors being PANDAS-like. We all want to nip in the bud if we can with the other kids. We all look at things in a different light now and the more I hear about siblings being diagnosed with PANDAS, the more I worry about the little things I see too. But I have not gotten to the point of red flags or even thinking about the need for a strep test.

 

Maybe because my oldest doesn't appear to have PANDAS so I have experienced the ups and downs of a non -PANDAS child more? Whereas, you're oldest has PANDAS. You may not necessarily have that baseline of "regular" child tantrums and behaviors to compare to.

 

Just do what the others suggested an log the behaviors that you truly worry about. When you look at them as a whole, you may be able to decide if you want to explore PANDAS with the 5 year old or not. I would write down the date, what prompted the behavior, reaction to it, how long it took to overcome any anxiety, rage, meltdown. What did they do afterwards.

[Suzan]

I think I confused my post. My daughter is 5... my 2 year old was blocking her though.

 

Sounds like something that would happen at our house. It's hard to say with a 2 yr old but I'd say it's something to keep your eye on. I don't have any reference to "normal" but I spent years thinking things my kids did were normal, just on the extreme side. It might be helpful to start to keep a list of things she does and the date to keep track in the event that things start to get bad. I wish I had better record of what happened when.

 

 

Susan

 

Oh yes, well for a 5 yr old it's a little more unusual. Sounds a lot like my 7 yr old now.

 

Susan

[ajcire]

I guess I better get a big journal to keep my notes in.... she is in pm kindergarten.. so she just left now.. but before that when it was time to eat she asked for 2 different things and then wouldn't eat them and got hysterical that she only wants strawberries (which she knows we don't have any more of)... my once rational child just threw a fit because she wanted me to make strawberries appear out of thin air. It's broke my heart that even my 2 year old knew she was acting crazy.. he looked at her and said, "but we don't have anymore" Ah when the voice of reason is your 2 year old you know you are in trouble. Then she just snapped out of it, it was done and over and she was back to talking to me like nothing happened... she didn't ask for anything and she just went without eating lunch (she had breakfast so maybe she just wasn't that hungry despite her screaming at me that she was starving and I had to get her strawberries).

 

My dh has been away a lot so not sure but the baffling part is that I don't know if she would have pulled this if he was here or not. She might have started but when he told her to stop she probably would have. Maybe I am wrong now though.. things seem different the past few weeks. People (you know, those well meaning friends and family) keep telling me that it doesn't seem like it could be medical if my kids can control who they do it around.... ah.. my pandas son is way more difficult at home for me than at school... at school they think I am crazy if I ask about his behavior.

[peglem]

I sometimes think of the OCD like a "thinking tic". Tics can be suppressed for a time, but eventually will explode out, right? So why not the OCD? She feels safer letting it out around you. Is that way off base?

[ajcire]

Peg, reading that just made my heart sink for a minute. I had so little patience for her but imagine if she holds it in and feels safest around me being herself and then I get all upset with her. I need to find a way to not let this get to me or at least to not let her see it get to me. I guess either way, if it's pandas or just her pushing all my buttons I need to not let her see it is doing that. I need to work harder at making myself be the one person who understands them fully. I wish I could redo so many of our last few days.

 

 

I sometimes think of the OCD like a "thinking tic". Tics can be suppressed for a time, but eventually will explode out, right? So why not the OCD? She feels safer letting it out around you. Is that way off base?