Can PANS cause depression like symptoms with crying and sadness

[HopeinHIM]

I feel like the Needy Forum MOM !!

I write on here often lately because it tends to give me some relief! Thanks you !!! Your advise is always helpful!!

Our Ds tends to be sad and depressed often with frequent crying bouts . He was never moody or sad in his life until now. Is this PANS?? Or is it Bart? Can this be Pans Flares in him? or does Lymes have to be in the picture for such strong neuro reactions???

He was treated for Bart for past 6 months and at first he was great no more rages and more improvement's but then after several month. he began to decline and now sad and cries often . Like before treatment.

SSRI's only cause him psychoses. WE also started treating Babasia but the Malarone makes him more depressed so that we had to stop after 10 days. We have two top doctors but they disagree as to whether he has Lymes at all bc Igenx came back negative. One wants him full force on Babs treatment and the other says no. Hmmmm confusing I know! We decided to treat on clinical anyway but his sadness and crying has flared again and it's awful to watch.

I am waiting on more lab work and he currently is only on zith 1 x aday. Other anti b's were causing side effects so we removed all for now. He began throwing up with Augmentin and could not walk well on the Omnicef. AND Bactrim made him so dizzy !! He did well on these meds for several months but eventually all began to negatively effect him. I am testing my home for mold as we write. I give high doses of quality probiotics. I even stopped supplement's to see if his body just needed a break. Appt with Dr T Friday to read lab work and hoping some virus is the culprit. Does anybody have PANS child who has this emotional labiality?? He doesn't get anxious much and his OCD is not very typical OCD. He is also on low liquid lithium and has been for 6 months. (very low)1/4 ts a day.

I really hope the new lab work shows some answers. NO school and rarely wants to leave the house. Much blessings to all!!

[rowingmom]

It did for DD13. Emotional lability, crying, sadness, raging, frustration, social withdrawl, behavioural regression.

 

Her PANS symptoms and most of her physical pain symptoms resolved with bartonella treatment, but her emotional instability, cognitive and executive function showed the most improvement with babesia treatment.

 

We are addressing both together now in a combination of herbal bartonella and babesia protocols. The low doses we use seem easier on her than abx did, and she is progressing better than with abx. She just seems healthier now.

 

Please read my signature for more specifics on DD's symptoms.

Edited November 29, 2014 by rowingmom

[HopeinHIM]

 

It did for DD13. Emotional lability, crying, sadness, raging, frustration, social withdrawl, behavioural regression.

 

Her PANS symptoms and most of her physical pain symptoms resolved with bartonella treatment, but her emotional instability, cognitive and executive function showed the most improvement with babesia treatment.

 

We are addressing both together now in a combination of herbal bartonella and babesia protocols. The low doses we use seem easier on her than abx did, and she is progressing better than with abx. She just seems healthier now.

 

Please read my signature for more specifics on DD's symptoms.

 

I am speaking with Julie M Dec 8th for myself and Older son also to see if it will be too overwhelming for me to do with 10DS.Older son tested Poss for Babs but no real symptoms except tired often. I guess I just don't know anymore if younger boy has Bart or Babs bc th igenx and all other lab work came back negative and Dr T thinks Lymes and Pans overlap with symptom's!!!. Dr T says he wouldn't even treat BABs with lab proof. I think I will have Julie M just treat overall immune system which is what I am leaning toward these days for all of us.. I bought the books you recommended and wow way in depth. I hope she isn't too busy to be accessible somewhat. DS responds psychiatrically so often it's scary. Little things send him off. Thanks for all your great answers.

[rowingmom]

 

 

 

 

I am speaking with Julie M Dec 8th for myself and Older son also to see if it will be too overwhelming for me to do with 10DS.Older son tested Poss for Babs but no real symptoms except tired often. I guess I just don't know anymore if younger boy has Bart or Babs bc th igenx and all other lab work came back negative and Dr T thinks Lymes and Pans overlap with symptom's!!!. Dr T says he wouldn't even treat BABs with lab proof. I think I will have Julie M just treat overall immune system which is what I am leaning toward these days for all of us.. I bought the books you recommended and wow way in depth. I hope she isn't too busy to be accessible somewhat. DS responds psychiatrically so often it's scary. Little things send him off. Thanks for all your great answers.

 

 

I'm glad to hear you are speaking with Julie, although it sounds as though you may lose one of your main doctors (Dr T) by doing so if he doesn't agree with babesia treatment. Herbal treatment isn't accepted by the mainstream and although Dr T is accepting of PANS/PANDAS diagnoses that doesn't exactly put him in the realm of alternative medicine.

 

Can you vet out Dr T and see if he would be willing to keep you on if you were using herbal protocols? He is one of the best in the field; still unaccepting, obviously, that PANS can be caused by infections other than strep or perhaps lyme, but that doesn't mean he should necessarily be dismissed. You did well to make it to him in the first place.

 

Our LLMD told me in the beginning that bartonella caused PANS reactions. Not that the PANS and bartonella symptoms overlapped. This is from a pediatrician who understands lyme and coinfections. Dr T is a good PANS/PANDAS physician but is not knowledgeable in lyme/coinfections. I believe our LLMD was right because as we treated bartonella with abx, the die-off resulted in increased PANS symptoms, and when we had finished treating bartonella the PANS symptoms were not longer obvious. Of course we may have been treating other unknown infections that were causing PANS symptoms with the bartonella treatment. We will never really know.

 

Are you ready yourself to take the leap from antibiotics to herbals? Julie will guide you, but you must understand pretty much everything in the books (resistant virals, resistant bacterials, coinfections mycoplasma and bartonella; and get the new one out next spring on babesia and anaplasma) and be prepared to question her about anything you don't agree with.

 

If your children have tested positive for these infections, I would not dismiss using low doses of antimicrobial herbs to decrease load, allowing immune response to recover. The babesia, bartonella and lyme infections are all immune suppressive and your DSs' bodies may not be able to reach balance using immune modulation alone.

 

There are several immune regulating herbs, but also many antimicrobial herbs which work very well against bartonella and babesia. With herbs, there is a synergism. Together they work more effectively than only a select one or two alone. The bacteria simply can't survive the many, many different constituents present in the herbal combinations.

 

With your son's reactivity to "little things", please, please do not start at any dosage recommended by either Buhner in his books or by Julie during your consult.

 

Start with extremely low doses of only one herb and remain there for a week or so. If you see a herx, decrease dosage to a point where it resolves and stay there for another week. Only then introduce a second herb at very low dose (keeping the first constant) and manipulating it as you did the first until you come to a good dose that doesn't cause a herx before adding the next and so on.

 

Keep all detox protocols in place. Have you tested for MTHFR anomalies? Many of our children can not methylate properly, which is essential to the body's ability to detoxify. They require methylated versions of the spectrum of B vitamins, although not at large doses (we supplement every other day for this with http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-activated-b-complex-high-bioavailability-60-veg-caps, and 1000mcg sublingual methylB12), to help rectify the problem.

 

Herxing is not necessary. You can regulate dosages so that die-off occurs but not to the point where it causes severe symptoms.

 

Investigate what Julie has to say, but I would hesitate to drop Dr T until you are confident in what you are doing.

Edited November 29, 2014 by rowingmom

[sf_mom]

I just wanted to agree with everything Rowingmom is telling you!

 

Plus add that there are 11 known strains of Babesia and Igenex only tests for two: Microti and Duncani. Bartonella similarly has cousin strains that are not regularly tested like Brucellosis.

 

See notes from 2014 ILADS conference.

 

http://www.betterhealthguy.com/ilads-2014

 

Our younger son tests positive for Babesia Duncani. He has gestational Lyme et al. I had every known symptom for Babesia but have never tested positive and improve with Babesia treatments minus the Herx.

 

Depression is a noted symptom of Babesia but there are other specific symptoms of the following:

 

• Headaches in the back base of head (for me they typically occurred later in day)
• Shoulder aches making it hard to hold up head
• Thigh pain - bone pain
• Eye pain
• Night sweats, nightmares, sometimes frequent waking (these symptoms were predominate in our children)
• Air Hunger - Breathlessness
• Temperature intolerance: hot to cold
• Isolated little pinpoint red rash (like stuck with a pin) when pressed on they get redder - sometimes they itch - hard to resolve

Here is one of the better symptom list I have seen. http://www.wayneanderson.com/pages/diseases/babesia.html

[sf_mom]

I wanted to add that our children's red blood cell count was typically low end of normal or low. Hemocrits were often low.

[cynditk]

yes, definitely. My son has PANS and Lyme and a ton of emotional lability. We have had best success with low dose citalopram- 5mg- and he also uses medical cannabis. The cannabis helps with his severe pain, which helps him be more functional and therefore less depressed. It does also seem to help improve his mood in general. He is 19 and we are in a state where MMJ is legal for patients.

[rowingmom]

@ sf_mom - thanks for the link to Anderson's list of babesia-like-organism symptoms. He is right on the money about cognitive function and memory.

 

DD and I are so much better in that respect since treating with babesia/protozoa herbs. Words flow easier for both of us now.

 

Also thigh pain. DD never actually experienced large muscle pain until we started using the babesia herbs. Her presenting pain symptoms were all bartonella and mostly associated with long bones, skull and feet.

 

Anderson's bartonella-like-organism list doesn't include marrow infiltration and inflammation though, which should have been included.

 

DD's RBC counts were always on the low end, but never out of normal range.

Edited November 29, 2014 by rowingmom

[rowingmom]

yes, definitely. My son has PANS and Lyme and a ton of emotional lability. We have had best success with low dose citalopram- 5mg- and he also uses medical cannabis. The cannabis helps with his severe pain, which helps him be more functional and therefore less depressed. It does also seem to help improve his mood in general. He is 19 and we are in a state where MMJ is legal for patients.

 

Are you using cannabis to modulate your son's immune system, or as a temporary anti-inflammatory/pain reliever? Are you finding specific improvement from the immune modulation or is cannabis just helping him to cope with symptoms?

 

As you can see from the above posts, for several mom's here we have found the type of pain to be related to species of infective organism. For our children, anti-inflammatories only help so much. Addressing the infection and decreasing bacterial loads has brought healing of both physical and psychological symptoms.

Edited November 29, 2014 by rowingmom