What supplements are helpful for Bartonella?

[trintiybella]

I need to try hollistically to kill this bartonella. Can you tell me some supplements that are helpful to do this? Also...do I need to see a hollistic person to do this??? Any advice is helpful.

[norcalmom]

You need to read Stephen Bruhners Healing Lyme coinfections- mycoplasma and bartonella.

 

It was phenomenal. Good luck.

[rowingmom]

Are you still with your LLMD? You might want to get the OK from him before you proceed.

 

Buhner's website is wonderful, and all of his protocols and dosages are listed there.

 

http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/

 

We have been having great luck with his complete protocol and as DD is ramping up with houttuynia, she is experiencing some herxing, so we know it is working. The herxing is a lot shorter lived (2days) than the herxing from abx. Although, we were at a pretty good place when we started herbals, after being on combo abx for 2 years. Our LLMD is quite happy that we are continuing her treatment herbally, but she is leaving the protocols pretty much up to me. She is not really informed about herbal treatment other than the Byron White series.

 

 

Buhner has an associate (Julie) that does phone/e-mail consults. I actually have my name on her waiting list at the moment.

 

The book mentioned above is a good one:

Healing Lyme Disease Coinfections: Complementary and Holistic Treatments for Bartonella and Mycoplasma

as is his older one:

Healing Lyme: Natural Healing and Prevention of Lyme Borreliosis and Its Coinfections

 

Both books are available on his website.

 

Another practitioner that uses similar herbal supplementation to treat lyme/coinfections is Greg Lee of the TwoFrogsHealing Center. He also has a good informative site:

 

GoodByeLyme.com

 

Great information in the drawdown "free articles" section.

[rowingmom]

Greg Lee is also available for consultations, but you will need to physically see him for an intake first. Other than that, he can give general information, but nothing really specific.

[trintiybella]

I read some of the supplements. She flips out with the teeniest amounts of stuff. Not sure she could handle all that different herbs.

[Dedee]

I just had a conversation with our LLMD about Dr. Bruhner. She had just returned from a conference of his and was really excited about the new information. She says he is all about addressing the cytokine cascade that lyme and co-infections cause and then believes that once that is under control the body is more able to actually fight the infection. So she is supposed to be getting back with me on some supplements to help in that direction. In the meantime we have changed antibiotics and I had added in GABA supplement which had seemed to help my daughter until she started to herx from the new antibiotic. That was expected though and I am hoping it calms down here in a few days. If I hear back from the LLMD on cytokine control I will let you know.

 

Dedee

Edited June 24, 2013 by Dedee

[rowingmom]

I just had a conversation with our LLMD about Dr. Bruhner. She had just returned from a conference of his and was really excited about the new information. She says he is all about addressing the cytokine cascade that lyme and co-infections cause and then believes that once that is under control the body is more able to actually fight the infection. Dedee

Yes. He mentions this in both of his books. Japanese knotweed is the herb he uses to produce this effect. I though knotweed was good when I was taking 500 mg/day (1 Source Naturals capsule), but now that we are making tea from the organic powdered herb from 1st ChineseHerbs, and my dosage is 1.75 tsp, I really do feel amazingly pain free a lot of the time.

 

DD is using the tincture from Woodland Essence, but I have added a little of the powdered herb to her houttuynia tea as well.

 

Please do keep us updated. Our LLMD is fine with us using Buhner's protocol, but knows little about it. I am on a waiting list to be contacted about a consultation with his associate - sounds like it may be a while.

[SSS]

I am about to start a Buhner protocol (based on his new book)

for Bartonella- lately, I've been wondering if it's creeping back up,

and I was drawn to and intrigued by his new book about it,

how he explains how the infection itself (and mycoplasma, which I don't have)

affect different cells, parts of the body, and if we can halt these actions,

the infection itself cannot thrive/ it dies out.

Anyway, I have the recommended supplements

(L-arginine, ECGC, Quercetin, Rhodila, etc. etc.)

and a few new other herbs-

I did not include houttonyia, since I already did that heavily last year with Zhang's HH2 caps, and Nutrimedix version of Houttonyia as well. I found those very effective, BTW.

I'm doing a: let's see what happens, if Bart really is creeping back up, what this feels like.

 

Tiny treasures, the herbs can be powerful. I think it may be best to be guided by a professional, unless you really educate yourself....

[trintiybella]

S&S

Can you tell me what your bartonella symptoms are??? Or do you have a list? Thanks

[SSS]

I am an adult without PANS, but a positive Bartonella Henselae test.

This is my favorite (most accurate for me) Bartonella symptom list.

I believe your dd had a positive test at one point, too?

 

 

 

The Bartonella Checklist

 

Increasing Suspicion of This Emerging Stealth Infection

1. Insomnia [if profound fatigue this might not apply].

2. Current anxiety that was not present at age ten.

3. Current anxiety or depression not present at twenty years old.

4. Knee-jerk emotional responses worse than past decades and worsening.

5. Unusual discomfort on the soles of your feet

6. A temperature under 98.3 in a sick person. A temperature under 99.0 if Lyme disease or Babesia is present

7. Puffy tissue on insole or any part of ankles

8. Depression

9. Depression that is not fully controlled. [improvement of mood is not successful in depression treatment].

10. Gingivitis or bleeding during flossing

11. Anxiety is poorly controlled with average dosing

12. Depression is poorly controlled by reasonable medication trials

13. Sleep medicines work poorly at routine dosing

14. Rage worse with time

15. Irritability worse with time

16. IL-6 is very low

17. IL-1B is very low

18. TNF-a is in lower 10% of normal range

19. Any skin markings or growths greater than most people

20. Blood vessels or color on skin greater than most people

21. Impatience > in personality when compared to ten years ago. [in a child, any can be any irritability]

22. Cursing or hostile speech that is worse over time.

23. One or more medical problems with unclear cause(s) and idiopathic.

24. Red papules of any size.

25. Skin tags including ones removed by dermatologist or shaved off.

26. Unusual blood vessels of any kind including inside organs such as bladder or intestinal walls

27. Any skin finding in excess of 95% of most humans

28. Skin findings showing increased blood vessels of any size

29. Skin findings showing increased tissue formation that is increased over the flatness of surface skin.

30. Skin showing blood vessels that are too large or too many for the location of the blood vessels, e.g., surface thigh and calf skin with very thick surface blood vessels. Or legs, upper arms or shoulders have explosions of many fine blood vessels.

31. Increased addictions that are more resistant to recovery than average.

32. Increased impulsivity in contrast to past years or past decades.

33. Burning skin sensations [this may have many causes].

34. Itching without a clear cause and which is hard to control and remove

35. Skin erosion without a clear cause such as a fire or chemical burn.

36. Minor cuts or scratches which heal slowly.

37. After a surgery, you heal very slowly.

38. You have two tick or flea infections with two positive tick or flea borne viruses, bacteria or protozoa. [bartonella has >30 published species in public genetic databases and has more vectors than possibly any infection in the world. Therefore, the presence of other infections such as tick borne viruses, bacteria or protozoa, should raise suspicion.

39. Exposure to cats and dogs in excess of very incidental rare contact.

40. The patients mother is suspicious for Bartonella based on newer direct and indirect testing.

41. A sibling, father, spouse of child with any tick or flea-borne infection who shared a residence or vacation with proximity to brush.

42. Exposure to outdoor environments with brush, wild grasses, wild streams, golf courses or woods.

43. Outdoor expose in locations such as brush, wild grasses, wild streams or woods which happened without the use of DEET or without very high off- gassing essential oils on exposed skin areas.

44. The outdoor exposures such as brush, wild grasses, wild streams or woods which occurred without permethrin on shoes, socks and all clothing.

45. Clear exposure to lice, fleas or ticks. [bartonella is carried by a huge number of carriers, but for now, the % that carry Bartonella is not known. Further, the capacity to detect all new species in the vectors or in humans infected, does not exist or is not routinely available in direct testing of all human infectious Bartonella organisms in both large or specialty labs].

46. Stretch marks in eccentric locations, e.g., arms, upper side under armpit, around armpit or on the back.

47. Stretch marks filled with red, pink, purple or dark blue in color.

 

(BELOW IS BABESIA, I DON'T HAVE TIME TO EDIT IT OUT SS)

Please note that an unknown percentage of people infected have no symptoms, at least for many years.

 

This checklist is not meant to be used as a definitive tool to diagnose Babesia. I would suggest that no definitive 100% or even 98% sensitive tool exists.

My

 

In summary, how can any certain Babesia position exist, when new species that infect humans are routinely emerging, and for which there is not even a direct testregardless of sensitivity?

 

Please circle (consider) any symptom that applies:

 

1) I react to any derivative of Artemisia (Sweet Wormwood). *Note: the reaction does not need to last more than a day and any immediate stomachaches or loose stool do not apply.

 

2) I react to a malaria drug. (It requires profound wisdom for a clinician to distinguish between a side effect and a reaction caused by an effective Babesia treatment. For example, insomnia caused by the synthetic drug Larium is meaningless, since Larium has this as a side effect in uninfected patients. But fatigue and a severe headache resulting from a teaspoon of Mepron on day one are very suspicious symptoms for a known protozoan like Babesia or Malaria or other similar infections that are newly identified genetically).

 

3) Headaches with no clear cause

4) Headaches that are hard to control

5) Weight gain in clear excess of diet and exercise

6) Weight loss with reasonable eating and average exercise

7) Fatigue in excess of that experienced by most people in the same age range

8) Fatigue that produces need for sleep in excess of 8 ½ hours daily

9) Fatigue with ongoing insomnia [consider the possibility of both Bartonella and Babesia in this case]

10) Absolute Eosinophils in the low or high range [this is not definitive in any manner, but is a useful tool]

11) A percentage of Eosinophils in low range or high normal range

12) Very high Eosinophils [rare with Babesia, but other findings suggest other possible causes]

13) Mood changes with any herb or drug that kills protozoa like Babesia, with the exception of Larium

14) Shortness of breath [no clear asthma, pneumonia, COPD or other common cause]

15) Swelling in limbs and other parts of body

16) Night sweats

17) Excessive perspiration during normal daily activity

18) Hot flashes in a normal temperature room

19)

26) A normal or low VEGF lab result in the presence of Bartonella

27) A TNF-a in excess of 1.0 in the presence of Bartonella

28) A CD57 or CD57/8 level that drops right after the start of a Babesia treatment, or which falls steadily with ongoing treatment

29) Pets, farm animals or local relatives with ANY tick borne virus, bacteria or protozoa

30) Excess breast tissue in a man or boy

31) Any decreased in appetite

32) Severe chest wall pains

33) Random stabbing pains

34) Any enhanced sense: sensitivity to light, touch, smells or sound

35) Family, friends or others report you look tired or foggy

36) You have received blood from another person

37) Muscle aches or joint aches/pain, especially worse after use of a protozoa killing medicine such as proquanil, Alinia, ativoquone, clindamycin, or one of many new emerging progressive natural medicine or synthetic malaria drug treatments

38) Nausea or vomiting

39) Hemolytic anemia with lab positive blood products in your urine [this is not a routine finding]

40) Dark urine [this is rarer than some articles intimate]

41) An enlarged liver (which sits under your right rib cage)

42) An enlarged spleen (under your left rib cage). This is falsely believed to be a common human sign; actually it is very rare.

43) A yellow hue on eyes, hands and skin (jaundice) with no other clear cause.

44) Sexual contact is a debated form of communication of some tick and flea borne infections. I have no position. Isolation in a body fluid does not mean that is a route to spread the infection. If you and your healer feel this is a possible route of infection, has the patient had intimate contact with the sharing of body fluids with an infected person?

45) The patients mother is suspected of having or has been diagnosed with Babesia, Ehrlichia, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Anaplasma, Lyme or Bartonella based on newer direct and indirect testing or clinical signs and symptoms.

46) A sibling, father, spouse or child with any tick borne infection who shared a residence or vacation with proximity to brush (wooded area).

47) Exposure to outdoor environments with brush, wild grasses, wild streams, golf courses or woods in excess of ten minutes in any location lived or visited since the age of eighteen months of age.

48) Outdoor exposure in locations such as brush, wild grasses, wild streams or woods which took place without the use of DEET or without very high off-gassing essential oils on exposed skin areas.

49) Enlarged lymph nodes (but also in Lyme, Bartonella, other infections, high inflammation, tumors and other diseases)

50) After Babesia treatment with clear protozoa killing agents used also to kill malaria, IL-6 moves from very low to an increased level.

51) After Babesia treatment with clear protozoa killing agents used also to kill malaria, IL-1B moves from very low to an increased level.

52) Brain troubles such as trouble keeping up with past routine life demands, lateness due to trouble with motivation and organization, and trouble with concentration [Any of these would be a positive]

53) Memory troubles [this is not specific to one infection or one disease process. For example, exposure to indoor molds biological chemicals can decrease memory within an hour depending on the species mix]

54) Profound psychiatric illnesses [this is not limited to a single infection]

55) Daytime sleep urgency despite nighttime sleep

56) Waves of generalized itching [this infection and inflammation sign is not limited just to Babesia].

57) Spike of a fever over 100.5 after a possible tick bite.

58) Insomnia after taking a malaria killing herb or drug

59) Anxiety and/or depression after taking a malaria killing herb or drug

60) Rage or temporary personality regression right after use of a malaria killing herb or medication

61) Excess fat in lower belly area that is in excess of lifestyle and activity.

62) Lumps or other types of tissue collection with no clear cause [Other tick and flea-borne infections can also cause these growths]

63) One or more medical problems with unclear cause(s), with changing or contradictory diagnoses, or which are eventually called idiopathic.

64) Psychiatric label(s) given for all of your troubles or a child or relatives troubles when clear medical problems exist as shown by abnormal laboratory results (only if wide testing is done which includes inflammation and anti-inflammation chemicals, hormones, nutrient levels, and other immune system chemicals).

65) You have two tick or flea infections with two positive tick or flea borne viruses, bacteria or protozoa. The presence of other infections such as tick borne viruses or bacteria raises suspicion of a Babesia infection.

66) Your clinician understands the use of indirect testing and feels your lab pattern is suggestive of the presence of Babesia. This involves more than an ECP spike.

67) Since direct testing for Babesia by any lab misses many human species and is of variable reliability, and the common presence of Bartonella suppresses some antibody tests, a positive or indeterminate is likely a positive. Have you had an indeterminate or borderline Babesia result?

68) You have neighbors living near you with a tick or flea infection diagnosis.

69) Your pet(s) or family animals of any type, e.g., horses, have had outdoor exposures to areas such as brush, wild grasses, wild streams or woods. If the pets were animals such as dogs, which can be given anti-tick and flea treatments, were these animals always on schedule with these treatments?

70) Have you had clear exposure to ticks in your current or past homes as an adult?

71) Have you had clear exposure to ticks during vacations or other travels?

 

A WORD ON MANUAL BLOOD EXAMINATIONS

 

No blood smear will be positive for Babesia unless you have a profoundly massive number of infected red blood cells, which is rare. Therefore, no blood smear should be considered negative unless it has been examined for thirty minutes. While a 2-3 minute exam of large white blood cells may be fully sufficient to identify cancers and other diseases, a search for over eighty Babesia red blood cell presentations under 1000x, as found in my Hematology Forms of Babesia book, requires at least thirty minutes, which requires private contracting with a microbiologist or pathologist or a favor from a lab director. Please appreciate that stains help define whether a substance is what it appears to be.

 

Babesia is an emerging infection. Any certainty claims or criticism about Babesia positions without reading at least parts of 1,500 articles is a premature certainty. Again, new Babesia species are emerging every one to four months. Indeed, even a new protozoan has been found that looks like Babesia under a high powered microscope. But when it is genetically sequenced it is not Babesia or immature malaria, which can look similar. It is a new infection.

Therefore, since this is a new emerging illness, this scale is meant to merely increase awareness of Babesia, an infection that can kill patients of any age. Writings in the past fifteen years have either seen Babesia as a mere co-infection or a footnote of a spirochete infection [Lyme]. Anything that can hide for a couple of decades, and then possibly kill you with a clot or by other means, is not a casual infection.

 

Babesia cure claims should be made with the use of indirect testing birthed from extracts of superior journals read over five years. Currently, these many indirect well-established lab test patterns are not used or understood by immensely busy and smart clinicians working full-time. While this is fully understandable, I hope it may change in the coming decade.

Edited June 25, 2013 by S & S

[rowingmom]

I am about to start a Buhner protocol (based on his new book)

for Bartonella- . . . . .I did not include houttonyia, since I already did that heavily last year with Zhang's HH2 caps, and Nutrimedix version of Houttonyia as well. I found those very effective, BTW.

I'm doing a: let's see what happens, if Bart really is creeping back up, what this feels like.

 

Tiny treasures, the herbs can be powerful. I think it may be best to be guided by a professional, unless you really educate yourself....

If I was you, I would include houttuynia. I think that is the main herb that addresses bartonella. We are using the powdered herb from 1st ChineseHerbs as mentioned on the Buhner website, and it has really helped me to feel calmer, and helped my foot pain. I just jump out of bed in the morning now! It's a lot cheaper than HH and at $15/lb, will last for ever. 1st ChineseHerb organic powdered japanese knotweed is wonderful for inflammation. I can row now and not have the overall body inflammation/pain I used to get from it. Just the expected leg/biceps/back pain.

[SSS]

Rowingmom, I already used a LOT of Houttonyia last year- and Levaquin, A-Bart, Beyond Balance Bart formula, Cipro and Rifampin rounds, more I can't think of now.

I treated very aggressive, and reaped improvements. It wasn't easy, as we know, going through treatment is hard.

 

Buhner actually says in his new book about Bartonella:

The core protocol consists of 1) cytokine disruption, 2) organ protection, 3) immune enhancement and support--

a distant fourth is antibacterial assault.

For antibacterial assault, I included what he recommends; Sida Acuta and Isatis,

2 herbs I've never done before-

also using them at the same time as his recommendations outlined for steps 1-3.

 

Frankly, not even sure it's Bartonella creeping back up on me, but wanted to give this a try in case, I am so drawn to it.

[trintiybella]

How about other supplements as your doing the antibiotics. Like omega 3's...perhaps vitamin C for detoxing.....any other vitamins you would recommend?