exceptional intellect and pandas

[smartyjones]

i was just thinking recently. . . i noticed in a news article that Sammy is set to graduate next year with 3 degrees -- (go Sammy!!!). . . dr. k's website lists highly intelligent in the phenotype of a pandas child. there are mentions on this forum of kids in advanced classes and of 2E kids.

 

are there any thoughts or studies with any info about this? could it be some type of susceptiblility in a certain type of brain? could it be overcompensation in one area of the brain for deficits in another? could it be inflammation or overactivity in one area that results in troublesome behaviors and thoughts in one area but similar inflammation or overactivity in another that results in 'exception'? is it just a quirk to notice now and will be explored in 20 years?

 

i guess Sammy seems to have kept the exception while losing the troublesome -- does that show it's not really related?

[LaurenK]

I think there was a girl a while back here who spoke 5 languages and had PANDAS?? I read on the forum before joining. I read something specific about languages and children with PANDAS. Don't know where the thread is though.

Edited January 13, 2012 by LaurenK

[EAMom]

IMHO I think PANDAS affects kids of all intellects. But,it's the PANDAS kids with the "exceptional" and educated parents (the ones that search the internet for answers and get a 2nd or 3rd opinion) that get diagnosed and treated correctly.

 

Here's a new study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22231309

 

"Marked impairment in visuospatial recall memory (as assessed using the Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figure Test) was observed in spite of average to above-average performance on academic and other neurocognitive measures."

 

By the way, my dd took the test mentioned (Rey Complex Figure Test) when we had some testing done when she was in 3rd grade (due to spelling, copying, math facts, handwriting issues). THe testers were really scratching their heads with wonder b/c she scored in the 3rd percentile (did REALLY badly) on the Rey Complex Figure Test despite an IQ in the gifted range.

Edited January 13, 2012 by EAMom

[nicklemama]

I agree w/ EAMom, most of the kids who are properly diagnosed are kids w/ well educated parents and I'll add that are very persistent.

 

I dug out my DS's neuropsych evaluation and looked up what his scores were on the Rey-Osterreith test because I remembered that test name. What a surprise. It says "Unable to score due to significant visual disorganization." He was evaluated nearly a yr after onset and at the time was undiagnosed and untreated because we didn't know what we were dealing with.

 

My DS also scores in the gifted range.

Edited January 13, 2012 by nicklemama

[MomWithOCDSon]

Here I am beating the "glutamate" drum again, but . . . . .

 

In her lecture series, Dr. Amy Yasko talks about glutamate receptors and how studies have indicated that people of high intelligence have more receptors than people of "average" intelligence. Meanwhile, I guess, autistic kids were found to have fewer glutamate receptors on the surface of the cells, but Dr. Yasko postulates that the receptors have been brought inside the cells themselves in an established process (I've forgotten the exact term for it), so the autistic population is still especially "sensitive" to glutamate.

 

Meanwhile, in the mere act of thinking . . . of using our analytic, memory and reasoning processes. . . our brains are firing and glutamate is being released nonstop, so presumably in those for whom thinking consumes much of their time and resources (aka, the "intelligent"), more glutamate tends to be released.

 

So, glutamate being increasingly associated with OCD, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, ALS, autism, etc., yes, I think there's a connection between PANDAS and intelligence because I think there's a connection between glutamate and many PANDAS behaviors.

Edited January 13, 2012 by MomWithOCDSon

[norcalmom]

I agree with EAMom. The ones that actually get the dx "pandas" are only dx'd because of exceptional (and exceptionally committed) parents. Who not only have the intellect, but the time, money (not to mention the balls!) to go against what the 10 specialists they have seen and the insurance companies are telling them, (and read reams of research.)

 

I do think that because of the challenges these kids have (my son - also in 2% of a couple of the IQ tests, and all the others in gifted range) have adopted coping mechanisms - like dyslectic kids do - and perhaps develop some things they are very good at. For example, my son would not write down math as he went, or show any work. He would do it all in his head and write the final number on the paper dispite years of pleas to show his work and many points lost for not showing it. We just thought he was smart - since at age 10 he was doing arithmetic in his head that I could not ( I majored in computer science and math in college). Little did we know if was because he was DISABLED. Unable to perform fine motor tasks at the same time as spatial/mathematical functions.

 

It was a neat party trick for a while, but ultimately he's not going to be doing calculus in his head so I am thankful that we discovered this in did the IQ testing. I believe this specific ability was developed because of him compensating for what he could not do. It isn't a gift,its a PROBLEM. And, there are probably those out there that have kids with other abilities, some perhaps developed because of their OCD. I also think there is a need for us parents to remember and account for all the good things our kids are capable of (brag a little -hey we're parents, and where better to brag than an anonymous forum!)

 

 

Ultimately, I think anyone can get this disease. And our kids will be lucky if they come out without any significant long term disabilities. I say this because I've read some S. C. research that indicated that executive function (and maybe some other areas? don't recall) is more likely to be a problem for people that had SC, and that is the closest thing we have to pandas to compare to.

[Johnsmom]

Agree with EA mom. My kids been sick since he was so young. He's not advanced, he's right where he should be. And the math thing. Well it drives me nuts!

I was smart enough to get this far I guess but I am in no way as smart as some of these moms on this board. I absolutely hated math and still do. . I was discussing this very thing with dr k last month. I kind of gave him a hard time about the mom phenotype. He doesn't think all of the kids have highly intelligent moms but rather the ones who present with more OCD like symptoms do. Who knows. :

I did find this place though and I can bounce all my stuff off of you guys so I guess that does make me kind of smart!

[bulldog24]

I am anxiously awaiting my sons IQ and testing... we are part of the study, so they are looking at these things to some degree

 

my son APPEARS to be very intelligent and despite missing 4 weeks of school.had an eval from the teacher and he was "excellent"

 

But i aggree withput persistant parents, these kids would have little chance.

[oivay]

I agree with norcal mom.

 

While my daughter is gifted, and I have heard from several others that their children are too, I think that it is very true that the kids who get successfully treated have educated, tenacious, ballsy parents. I have also heard it theorized that the reason gifted children get this more often is because they have so many more active neuronal connections, it just runs through their brains like wildfire.

 

Additionally, I also work with children who often have neurological impairments. I knew instantly that this was a neurological problem.

[bigmighty]

"I am anxiously awaiting my sons IQ and testing... we are part of the study, so they are looking at these things to some degree"

 

I do not believe that NIH will give you any IQ test results. I was told that they would me you know if they found any areas of significant concern. At one time, they told me that they would let us know a blanket "scored average or above in all areas" if all we well. But no specifics. DS did most of the one-on-one cognitive testing during his final visit at six months. We never received any feedback with respect to that testing.

[smartyjones]

I am anxiously awaiting my sons IQ and testing... we are part of the study, so they are looking at these things to some degree

 

my son APPEARS to be very intelligent and despite missing 4 weeks of school.had an eval from the teacher and he was "excellent"

 

 

so interesting bulldog -- i didn't know they were doing iq as part of that study -- did they explain why or what they were thinking to ascertain from that? please keep me posted as to what you find out.

[smartyjones]

I do think that because of the challenges these kids have (my son - also in 2% of a couple of the IQ tests, and all the others in gifted range) have adopted coping mechanisms - like dyslectic kids do - and perhaps develop some things they are very good at. For example, my son would not write down math as he went, or show any work. He would do it all in his head and write the final number on the paper dispite years of pleas to show his work and many points lost for not showing it. We just thought he was smart - since at age 10 he was doing arithmetic in his head that I could not ( I majored in computer science and math in college). Little did we know if was because he was DISABLED. Unable to perform fine motor tasks at the same time as spatial/mathematical functions.

 

It was a neat party trick for a while, but ultimately he's not going to be doing calculus in his head so I am thankful that we discovered this in did the IQ testing. I believe this specific ability was developed because of him compensating for what he could not do. It isn't a gift,its a PROBLEM. And, there are probably those out there that have kids with other abilities, some perhaps developed because of their OCD. I also think there is a need for us parents to remember and account for all the good things our kids are capable of (brag a little -hey we're parents, and where better to brag than an anonymous forum!)

 

norcal - i'm sorry, i'm not understanding -- how did you discover this? how old is you son again?

 

so, you sound as if you think it's more of a psychological/coping development than a brain/neurological trade-off?

 

yes, what you mention is something that i am talking about -- ds7 does 'advanced' math in his head, which is all well and good and impressive now -- but i am concerned that he doesn't have some basics or skills that he will need to build on later. so - what types of things did you do to help?

 

we are beginning to work with a tutor who i fell in love with when he said, 'really, what you're looking for is not accomodation, but more remediation.' yes - exactly -- i am concerned to make sure he has the skills he needs!

[smartyjones]

Here I am beating the "glutamate" drum again, but . . . . .

 

 

oh jeez - mom -- my lack of intellect shows in that i just can't seem to make the synaptic connections to understand glutamate. i know you've tried, but can you refer me to some remedial glutamate info?

 

i guess it's not so imperative for us b/c i had asked opinions about glutamate vs. inositol and we have appt next week that i am going to discuss inositol with dr. . . . in the spirit of not changing/adding too much at the same time. . . . still, i know i've got to somehow gear up for glutamte understanding though.

Edited January 13, 2012 by smartyjones

[socalmom]

My son WAS ahead in school, even though he's so young and does speak 2 languages and was on a 3 rd when all this happened.

 

I now fear he'll fall behind. I worry i am not savvy enough or smart enough and I wonder if i missed the " window" for total 100% recovery.

[bulldog24]

Hmmmm.... i dont see why the nih would keep the IQ stuff secret? I was under the impression i would be told. I am getting copies of test results for my records so why would this be different.