Zinc/Copper revisited

[smartyjones]

nickelmama -- does your ds have high copper on blood tests, or inappropriate zinc/copper ratios?

we are at 50 mg zinc also, but upped too quickly. i don't know that i am too comfortable going higher than 50? what are your future plans for zinc?

we do give B6, P5P and B12 - i hadn't heard about B6 being balanced B12.

thanks.

[nicklemama]

He has high copper on blood tests and did have normal zinc. Now the zinc is high from me supplementing. I decreased zinc to MWF and found a 30mg tablet that I start today.

Edited April 29, 2013 by nicklemama

[LNN]

hmmm - remind me LLM -- your ds, pyloria but have you thought high copper issues? your dd -- you've thought high copper issues, right? do you supp her copper?

my ds has low zinc, high copper -- high copper personality. pyloria test negative, but doc doesn't trust b/c of low zinc. we recently upped his zinc but i think too quickly and saw some symptoms -- generally thought of as high copper symptoms. i can't imagine it's b/c of low copper. reduced zinc and saw evening out. still in the process of evening. i'm not too worried b/c we have normally scheduled ART-like appt this wednesday.

but wondering -- if increasing zinc would result in symptoms, would charcoal be of help? we've never used charcoal before. doc does not usually use charcoal, does suggest trying to move up zinc at slower rate.

 

ds is generally back to normal but seems to have some fluctuations -- like tonight, not too happy about bath, dh helping him but comes to me with basket full of laundry seeming apologetic that he's handing it to me. i call older ds to bring me Wegman's yummy chocolate chip cookies to share in quiet basement. to dh -- pal, i'll spend all night in the quiet basement scrubbing dirty baseball pants eating chocolate chip cookies if you deal with that obnoxious child in the bathtub!

 

Correct - my DS has pyroluria - no, I don't think he has high copper. That's why I started the post - it seems his OCD is decreasing as we add copper. I speculate it's because we supplement with 3 Core/day and lapsed in also supplementing copper, so he got copper deficient.

 

My DD was at one point a little high on copper and has always seemed low on zinc from a symptom perspective. Last year, when she had EBV, we did 8 weeks of an artimisinin/EDTA combo - the artimisinin didn't seem to help the EBV (l-lysine was what cured that). but I always figured the EDTA helped chelate some copper. This weekend, I started a zinc challenge - I gave her 10ml of liquid zinc http://www.amazon.com/Designs-Health-Zinc-Challenge-Beauty/dp/B000FGXMAY/ref=sr_1_20?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1367240518&sr=1-20&keywords=zinc and she didn't taste a thing, which according to Dr Greenblatt, suggests she's very zinc deficient. (I tried it and tasted an unpleasant metallic aftertaste, which is a relief since I take 30mg zinc every day and would be pretty upset if I didn't taste an after taste). So I'm going to supplement with some additional zinc and do the liquid zinc challenge every week as a litmus test.

 

I wonder if the negative symptoms you saw from adding zinc wasn't due to some sort of copper chelation. When you add one and change the balance, it can cause the body to chelate the higher one. So you might be on to something with the charcoal idea. I wouldn't go overboard on the charcoal - a neurologist told me that use it cautiously b/c it can mess up your electrolyte balance, but Yasko advocates a charcoal flush -

Charcoal and Magnesium Flushes Dosage: 1 to 2 capsules of charcoal, followed by enough magnesium citrate to produce a bowel movement within 8–12 hours. Once per week or more depending on testing and behaviors.

A charcoal flush soaks up excess ammonia in the body. You may want to do a “trial run” with magnesium citrate the day before to determine how much you need to use to produce a bowel movement within 8–12 hours. You can do the flush on a weekend, as that may be more convenient. Use charcoal flushes if ammonia is high or needs to be kept under control, as indicated on the MPA and/ or biochemical testing.

 

But on Phoenix Rising - a CFS forum that was frequented by Rich Van Konynenburg - who adapted Yasko's ideas to come up with a methylation protocol for CFS sufferers - the adult patients there felt a once a week flush was too little.

 

Whether you use charcoal or not, I would make sure he's having regular/frequent BMs when upping the zinc to make sure the copper is excreted and not left in the gut for re-absorption.

 

Ah - fun with chemistry!

[LNN]

Nickelmama - I haven't heard of a need for balance between B6 and B12 either. B9 (folate) and B12 - yes. But not B6. Can you shed any light on the B6 connection?

[nicklemama]

The light I can shed is I should not post at bedtime lol. I meant folate but my brain was already asleep.

[moosiebell]

Thank you, LLM. I have been giving zinc and manganese in the am only now (was giving twice a day) and have noticed OCD/ excessive worry waning. I tried the Core supplement with B6 and B12 and each time I tried it, his mind was racing and he couldn't sleep. He is having great days at school now, so am leery to change anything at the moment, but we still see a waxing and waning element of severe anxiety lasting from 15 min to 5 hours usually 2-3 x per week. BUT it is soooooooo much better than the past and I am thankful I see my son is emerging slowly but surely.