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i know i have no business in posts like this, but. . . my head starts wondering and i can't help myself!

 

we talk about the strep antibodies affecting the brain. is there any proof that it is/is not also the actual strep bacteria in the brain? i mean, we do have proof of strep in the throat, the gut and the skin - so why not the brain? it's proven that the lyme spirochete actually likes to live in the brain tissue, yes?

 

there is proof that it is the actual antibodies causing trouble, yes? is there proof or disproof that the bacteria could be there, too?

 

does this make a difference in the fight to eradicate strep? i have trouble understanding the "intercellular" concept. is this similar to the lyme borrelia changing to a cyst state? could the strep bacteria change state in the brain?

 

do we know that it's limited to the basal ganglia? could the seeming groupings of symptoms correlate to actual other areas of the brain being affected?

 

please excuse my ignorance, but the basal ganglia is different from the frontal lobe, correct? and the frontal lobe is labeled the emotional control center - involved in motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has.

 

i know i'm way too stupid to start this discussion, but am interested in what others have to say.

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Lyme and other tic born illnesses have been proven to enter the brain from biopsies of stillborn babies (this is talked about in 'Cure Unknown'). Strep can also form abscesses in the soft tissue of the body inclusive of the brain, etc. I've also read about renal (kidney) lesions resulting from RF.

 

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/reprint/7/6/529.pdf

 

 

i know i have no business in posts like this, but. . . my head starts wondering and i can't help myself!

 

we talk about the strep antibodies affecting the brain. is there any proof that it is/is not also the actual strep bacteria in the brain? i mean, we do have proof of strep in the throat, the gut and the skin - so why not the brain? it's proven that the lyme spirochete actually likes to live in the brain tissue, yes?

 

there is proof that it is the actual antibodies causing trouble, yes? is there proof or disproof that the bacteria could be there, too?

 

does this make a difference in the fight to eradicate strep? i have trouble understanding the "intercellular" concept. is this similar to the lyme borrelia changing to a cyst state? could the strep bacteria change state in the brain?

 

do we know that it's limited to the basal ganglia? could the seeming groupings of symptoms correlate to actual other areas of the brain being affected?

 

please excuse my ignorance, but the basal ganglia is different from the frontal lobe, correct? and the frontal lobe is labeled the emotional control center - involved in motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has.

 

i know i'm way too stupid to start this discussion, but am interested in what others have to say.

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Strep in the brain? I, too, don't know enough to even speculate on that (I try not to call myself stupid...but I feel that way often when it comes to PANDAS)...

 

However, I wanted to point out that in the Columbia mouse study (released August 2009), they only injected strep antibodies into the mouse, and the result was PANDAS behaviors.---at least that is how I understand it...correct me if I'm wrong please!

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I have no idea either...just some thoughts to throw out there.

 

It is these faulty anti-neuronal antibodies that are attacking the brain, yes? Not the strep antibodies measured by ASO or DNAse B. If it were "real" strep antibodies getting past the BBB and there was strep there... they could just do their job, right?

 

But these anti-neuronal antibodies have been tricked by ol' elusive strep that is molecularly mimicking brain tissue and saying "ha-ha, you think you're gonna get rid of us, but we've disguised ourselves to look like your own brain and you're attacking the wrong thing :)

 

The areas of the brain and inflammation question is one I have been interested in also. Perhaps, since basal ganglia is more interior, when really swollen for a prolonged period of time, it begins to put diffuse pressure to the exterior portions of the cortex?

 

motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has. Sorry-I have figured out the little quotation action yet.

 

This sounds like diffuse impairment to me and my dd10 too much more so than OCD per se, but still many "stuck" behaviors. I wonder if these types of behaviors belong more to the kiddos who are chronic or who have had PANDAS for years undiagnosed?? Any thoughts?

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I have no idea either...just some thoughts to throw out there.

 

It is these faulty anti-neuronal antibodies that are attacking the brain, yes? Not the strep antibodies measured by ASO or DNAse B. If it were "real" strep antibodies getting past the BBB and there was strep there... they could just do their job, right?

 

But these anti-neuronal antibodies have been tricked by ol' elusive strep that is molecularly mimicking brain tissue and saying "ha-ha, you think you're gonna get rid of us, but we've disguised ourselves to look like your own brain and you're attacking the wrong thing :)

 

The areas of the brain and inflammation question is one I have been interested in also. Perhaps, since basal ganglia is more interior, when really swollen for a prolonged period of time, it begins to put diffuse pressure to the exterior portions of the cortex?

 

motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has. Sorry-I have figured out the little quotation action yet.

 

This sounds like diffuse impairment to me and my dd10 too much more so than OCD per se, but still many "stuck" behaviors. I wonder if these types of behaviors belong more to the kiddos who are chronic or who have had PANDAS for years undiagnosed?? Any thoughts?

I had never thought about the basal ganglia putting pressure on other areas... that makes sense. I wonder how much swelling there is and if it could do that...

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I have no idea either...just some thoughts to throw out there.

 

It is these faulty anti-neuronal antibodies that are attacking the brain, yes? Not the strep antibodies measured by ASO or DNAse B. If it were "real" strep antibodies getting past the BBB and there was strep there... they could just do their job, right?

 

But these anti-neuronal antibodies have been tricked by ol' elusive strep that is molecularly mimicking brain tissue and saying "ha-ha, you think you're gonna get rid of us, but we've disguised ourselves to look like your own brain and you're attacking the wrong thing :)

 

The areas of the brain and inflammation question is one I have been interested in also. Perhaps, since basal ganglia is more interior, when really swollen for a prolonged period of time, it begins to put diffuse pressure to the exterior portions of the cortex?

 

motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has. Sorry-I have figured out the little quotation action yet.

 

This sounds like diffuse impairment to me and my dd10 too much more so than OCD per se, but still many "stuck" behaviors. I wonder if these types of behaviors belong more to the kiddos who are chronic or who have had PANDAS for years undiagnosed?? Any thoughts?

I had never thought about the basal ganglia putting pressure on other areas... that makes sense. I wonder how much swelling there is and if it could do that...

 

Don't have a sense for that...how much quest. The inside of the skull is full of boney protrusions that the brain does not like coming into contact with in closed-head injury... I don't have a sense for the boundaries or limits of this pandas inflammation. Isn't that supposed to be what the dilated pupils are indicative of? I wonder if dilated pupils are a sign in other brain assaults resulting in swelling? CVA? TBI?

 

I thought I remembered reading Buster describe basal ganglia as a giant ball of rubber bands that when swollen shift a little out of place causing all sorts of issues...

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I have no idea either...just some thoughts to throw out there.

 

It is these faulty anti-neuronal antibodies that are attacking the brain, yes? Not the strep antibodies measured by ASO or DNAse B. If it were "real" strep antibodies getting past the BBB and there was strep there... they could just do their job, right?

 

But these anti-neuronal antibodies have been tricked by ol' elusive strep that is molecularly mimicking brain tissue and saying "ha-ha, you think you're gonna get rid of us, but we've disguised ourselves to look like your own brain and you're attacking the wrong thing :)

 

The areas of the brain and inflammation question is one I have been interested in also. Perhaps, since basal ganglia is more interior, when really swollen for a prolonged period of time, it begins to put diffuse pressure to the exterior portions of the cortex?

 

motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has. Sorry-I have figured out the little quotation action yet.

 

This sounds like diffuse impairment to me and my dd10 too much more so than OCD per se, but still many "stuck" behaviors. I wonder if these types of behaviors belong more to the kiddos who are chronic or who have had PANDAS for years undiagnosed?? Any thoughts?

I had never thought about the basal ganglia putting pressure on other areas... that makes sense. I wonder how much swelling there is and if it could do that...

 

Don't have a sense for that...how much quest. The inside of the skull is full of boney protrusions that the brain does not like coming into contact with in closed-head injury... I don't have a sense for the boundaries or limits of this pandas inflammation. Isn't that supposed to be what the dilated pupils are indicative of? I wonder if dilated pupils are a sign in other brain assaults resulting in swelling? CVA? TBI?

 

I thought I remembered reading Buster describe basal ganglia as a giant ball of rubber bands that when swollen shift a little out of place causing all sorts of issues...

 

Okay, pupil dilation can be the result of illicit drugs/overdose, brain injury, brain tumor, stroke, amphetamine intoxication, & side effect to certain medications...

Great company for PANDAS, huh?

Edited by JAG10
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i know i have no business in posts like this, but. . . my head starts wondering and i can't help myself!

 

we talk about the strep antibodies affecting the brain. is there any proof that it is/is not also the actual strep bacteria in the brain? i mean, we do have proof of strep in the throat, the gut and the skin - so why not the brain? it's proven that the lyme spirochete actually likes to live in the brain tissue, yes?

 

there is proof that it is the actual antibodies causing trouble, yes? is there proof or disproof that the bacteria could be there, too?

 

does this make a difference in the fight to eradicate strep? i have trouble understanding the "intercellular" concept. is this similar to the lyme borrelia changing to a cyst state? could the strep bacteria change state in the brain?

 

do we know that it's limited to the basal ganglia? could the seeming groupings of symptoms correlate to actual other areas of the brain being affected?

 

please excuse my ignorance, but the basal ganglia is different from the frontal lobe, correct? and the frontal lobe is labeled the emotional control center - involved in motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has.

 

i know i'm way too stupid to start this discussion, but am interested in what others have to say.

 

I have a hard time imagining a day when we can ever fully encompass P.A.N.D.A.S.

For now, if I think it's a possibility & I research it a bit & it seems plausible, I go with it. That being said, it makes more than a little sense to think that the Basal Ganglia becoming inflamed could put pressure on the Globus Pallidus or the Thalamus. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Basal_Ganglia_and_Related_Structures.svg) Bustin out my Wikipedia sources, hahah. :)

The Basal ganglia is responsible for things like cognition, motor control, & general coordination (also motivation & dopamine transmission if I'm reading correctly?). The Globus Pallidus is most directly associated with regulating subconscious movements, & the Thalamus is responsible for "signal relaying & prioritization". The Thalamus is also part of the Limbic system, which is in control of "emotions, memories, physiological autonomic regulators, hormones, "fight or flight" responses, sexual arousal, circadian rhythms, and some decision systems", (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-limbic-system.htm) all of which are most definitely affected by P.A.N.D.A.S., if you ask me.

 

But.. Maybe I'm totally off. I've always read that P.A.N.D.A.S. attacks the Basal Ganglia. Does this mean the Basal Ganglia SYSTEM, which includes the Globus Pallidus & Thalamus, or just exclusively the Basal Ganglia, which does not?

 

Also, my main reason for not believing that it's the bacteria causing the problems is that I have strep insanely frequently, but don't have exacerbations as often. I've had TWO negative GABHs throat cultures in my entire life (thankfully enough, both were in the last year! Maybe seeing a change here?). I'm completely asymptomatic when it comes to strep, so I only even know to get tested when I see my friends starting to get sick. Nine times out of ten.. It's from me. Here's where I would put an audio clip of all of my friends going "THANKS, Ailidh...", hahah. There was one time in the seventh grade where my boyfriend at the time & bestfriend both had to miss two weeks of school because I gave them such bad strep. I had to stay home too, but I was feeling fine while they felt horrible. I felt so sorry.

That's how it's been since elementary school. Someone gets strep, I have to go get tested. That's the only way I found out that I have it, & as I said earlier.. I ALWAYS do.

 

Those are all just little rambling thoughts.. but I hope they helped a bit! & don't call yourself stupid. I promise we've all had questions just like these. :)

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I have a hard time imagining a day when we can ever fully encompass P.A.N.D.A.S.

For now, if I think it's a possibility & I research it a bit & it seems plausible, I go with it. That being said, it makes more than a little sense to think that the Basal Ganglia becoming inflamed could put pressure on the Globus Pallidus or the Thalamus. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Basal_Ganglia_and_Related_Structures.svg) Bustin out my Wikipedia sources, hahah. :)

The Basal ganglia is responsible for things like cognition, motor control, & general coordination (also motivation & dopamine transmission if I'm reading correctly?). The Globus Pallidus is most directly associated with regulating subconscious movements, & the Thalamus is responsible for "signal relaying & prioritization". The Thalamus is also part of the Limbic system, which is in control of "emotions, memories, physiological autonomic regulators, hormones, "fight or flight" responses, sexual arousal, circadian rhythms, and some decision systems", (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-limbic-system.htm) all of which are most definitely affected by P.A.N.D.A.S., if you ask me.

 

But.. Maybe I'm totally off. I've always read that P.A.N.D.A.S. attacks the Basal Ganglia. Does this mean the Basal Ganglia SYSTEM, which includes the Globus Pallidus & Thalamus, or just exclusively the Basal Ganglia, which does not?

 

Also, my main reason for not believing that it's the bacteria causing the problems is that I have strep insanely frequently, but don't have exacerbations as often. I've had TWO negative GABHs throat cultures in my entire life (thankfully enough, both were in the last year! Maybe seeing a change here?). I'm completely asymptomatic when it comes to strep, so I only even know to get tested when I see my friends starting to get sick. Nine times out of ten.. It's from me. Here's where I would put an audio clip of all of my friends going "THANKS, Ailidh...", hahah. There was one time in the seventh grade where my boyfriend at the time & bestfriend both had to miss two weeks of school because I gave them such bad strep. I had to stay home too, but I was feeling fine while they felt horrible. I felt so sorry.

That's how it's been since elementary school. Someone gets strep, I have to go get tested. That's the only way I found out that I have it, & as I said earlier.. I ALWAYS do.

 

Those are all just little rambling thoughts.. but I hope they helped a bit! & don't call yourself stupid. I promise we've all had questions just like these. :)

 

Good job with the research. I belive the basal ganglia is made up of several areas, and the globus pallidus is one area of the basal ganglia. Movements are originated in the cortex, but are filtered through the basal ganglia, where the "volume" of the movement is adjusted and finely tuned.

The thalamus is a different structure, though it is anatomically close to the basal ganglia. The thalamus is a relay center for sensory input from our bodies and the information is sorted out in the thalamus and then sent to appropriate parts of the brain.

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I am not really sure why you think your questions are "stupid" - especially since clearly no one is jumping in with all the answers!

 

no - i don't think the questions are stupid - just not sure my brain can comprehend the answers.

 

regarding the use of the word 'stupid'. i was telling my dh about this post -- becasue he so loves it when i retell conversations from this forum -- and ds, 8, told me that i lost two gems b/c i used "the s word" as he calls it and my kids are not allowed to use that word. hmm - do as i do - hmm

Edited by smartyjones
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It is these faulty anti-neuronal antibodies that are attacking the brain, yes? Not the strep antibodies measured by ASO or DNAse B. If it were "real" strep antibodies getting past the BBB and there was strep there... they could just do their job, right?

 

But these anti-neuronal antibodies have been tricked by ol' elusive strep that is molecularly mimicking brain tissue and saying "ha-ha, you think you're gonna get rid of us, but we've disguised ourselves to look like your own brain and you're attacking the wrong thing :)

 

The areas of the brain and inflammation question is one I have been interested in also. Perhaps, since basal ganglia is more interior, when really swollen for a prolonged period of time, it begins to put diffuse pressure to the exterior portions of the cortex?

 

motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has. Sorry-I have figured out the little quotation action yet.

 

This sounds like diffuse impairment to me and my dd10 too much more so than OCD per se, but still many "stuck" behaviors. I wonder if these types of behaviors belong more to the kiddos who are chronic or who have had PANDAS for years undiagnosed?? Any thoughts?

 

JAG - i guess that does make sense that the antibodies could just do their job correctly and attack the strep -- then my head starts to spin.

 

those descriptions are of the involvement of the frontal lobe and troublesome with injury. i meant it reads like a list of my son's troubles.

 

does anyone know if and why it's generally the basal ganglia that we talk about? have other areas been studied also as being affected by the antineural antibodies?

 

the diffuse impairment issue -- i've always wondered how the incident of "giftedness" fits in. dr t seems to contend it's that the child may be of higher educated/intelligent parents who may notice and seek treatment and therefore the child may be inherently more intellgent than an average child. i seem to think it's the child. i wonder if the swelling of certain areas of the brain not only influence troublesome behaviors put also engage other areas that result in higher brain functioning of certain skills.

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JAG - i guess that does make sense that the antibodies could just do their job correctly and attack the strep -- then my head starts to spin.

 

those descriptions are of the involvement of the frontal lobe and troublesome with injury. i meant it reads like a list of my son's troubles.

 

does anyone know if and why it's generally the basal ganglia that we talk about? have other areas been studied also as being affected by the antineural antibodies?

 

the diffuse impairment issue -- i've always wondered how the incident of "giftedness" fits in. dr t seems to contend it's that the child may be of higher educated/intelligent parents who may notice and seek treatment and therefore the child may be inherently more intellgent than an average child. i seem to think it's the child. i wonder if the swelling of certain areas of the brain not only influence troublesome behaviors put also engage other areas that result in higher brain functioning of certain skills.

 

I know what you mean about the diffuse impairment and the frontal lobe. With this last exacerbation my son looked just like a kid with a frontal lobe head injury - all exectutive functions and motivation were gone. He also had a great deal of trouble with memory - which is usually seen more in the hippocampus - another part of the brain closer to the temoral region on both sides. Since sinus surgery and antibiotics he is perky, on task, and motivated. We will see how he does in school this year.

 

So... I too wonder if more than just the basal ganglia is involved. This is a question for researchers and I hope someone does PET scans some day to look at function - not just anatomical swelling. It seems to me that the brain can have neuronoal misfiring with excessive cam kinase II in areas other than the basal ganglia - or perhaps the basal ganglia is most susceptible because it closest to the breach in the blood-brain barrer??

 

So many questions.... We need more research!

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It is these faulty anti-neuronal antibodies that are attacking the brain, yes? Not the strep antibodies measured by ASO or DNAse B. If it were "real" strep antibodies getting past the BBB and there was strep there... they could just do their job, right?

 

But these anti-neuronal antibodies have been tricked by ol' elusive strep that is molecularly mimicking brain tissue and saying "ha-ha, you think you're gonna get rid of us, but we've disguised ourselves to look like your own brain and you're attacking the wrong thing :D

 

The areas of the brain and inflammation question is one I have been interested in also. Perhaps, since basal ganglia is more interior, when really swollen for a prolonged period of time, it begins to put diffuse pressure to the exterior portions of the cortex?

 

motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, initiation, judgement, impulse control, social behavior, flexibility, problem solving, perseverating, non-compliance with rules, emotional liability, immature behavior, dramatic change in social behavior. that right there describes my son's issues better than ocd ever has. Sorry-I have figured out the little quotation action yet.

 

This sounds like diffuse impairment to me and my dd10 too much more so than OCD per se, but still many "stuck" behaviors. I wonder if these types of behaviors belong more to the kiddos who are chronic or who have had PANDAS for years undiagnosed?? Any thoughts?

 

JAG - i guess that does make sense that the antibodies could just do their job correctly and attack the strep -- then my head starts to spin.

 

those descriptions are of the involvement of the frontal lobe and troublesome with injury. i meant it reads like a list of my son's troubles.

 

does anyone know if and why it's generally the basal ganglia that we talk about? have other areas been studied also as being affected by the antineural antibodies?

 

the diffuse impairment issue -- i've always wondered how the incident of "giftedness" fits in. dr t seems to contend it's that the child may be of higher educated/intelligent parents who may notice and seek treatment and therefore the child may be inherently more intellgent than an average child. i seem to think it's the child. i wonder if the swelling of certain areas of the brain not only influence troublesome behaviors put also engage other areas that result in higher brain functioning of certain skills.

 

I asked Dr. K about the intelligence issue from a different angle. I wanted to know how he could describe the phenotype of a pandas child as an infant prior to them having had the initial episode. He referred me to his single light switch; one wire in, one wire out; it gets overheated but no problems. Now he said imagine a panel with 500 switches, all those wires going in and out; that gets overheated and BIG problems because there are so many connections. I think he hypothesizes that highly intelligent children are genetically predisposed because they have many more neuronal connections to get overheated, crossed and catastrophe. So, when I wanted to know how he knew my child was fussy, intense, difficult to get to sleep, not particularly cuddly; that is a phenotype of highly intelligent infants.

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