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Too much B6 if doing enzymes?


Claire

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Hi Jennifer/Nancy,

 

How much B6 (including the B-complex) did Pfeiffer have you give your children? Due to the pyroluria issue, we have been at 125 B6 + 50 mg P5P a day. But Houston Enzymes cautions on not doing too much B6 and B3 with the enzymes. This is what I found.

 

I would love to hear what Pfeiffer recommended--though I know neither of your kids has pyroluria. I am going to play with lowering ours and seeing what happens. Ugh. I hate multiple variables. e.g. I would like to test the enzymes first, then do this...

 

Caz, if you are reading this--my search turned up your same link. Note the asterisks I put in. Darn, everything is sooooooo interdependent. aaaaaargh!

 

Thanks,

Claire

 

 

http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm

 

Why do we see the constant trend of people with phenol intolerances having bad reactions to high B6 supplements?

This seems to go back to the methylation cycle. If you look at the diagram at the link given above, you see that B6/magnesium converts homocysteine to cysteine. However, in order for the cysteine to be converted on you need sulfation to be working properly. Those with faulty sulfation processes are not able to do this well and too much cysteine accumulates. Cysteine has excitatory properties and can even be toxic in high amounts. So supplying B6 increases the cysteine supply where it gets stuck in the pathway and accumulates.

This also explains why if someone did okay with high B6 or even TMG and then started enzymes, they may start to see problems with those supplements over time. Or if they take Peptizyde and go off a GFCF diet (thereby adding in more B vitamins). The enzyme therapy is adding in more B vitamins, so now there is a greater supply of B6. The increase in B6 "pulls" the methylation cycle into producing more cysteine…maybe too much cysteine accumulates. So ending the high B vitamins lets this cycle settle into a more balanced state. The high cysteine levels are reduced and the adverse reactions subside. Someone may be very well on a "regular" recommended daily allowance of B6, but only sees adverse reactions at the higher doses.

Here are some links that explain the problems with too much cysteine.

http://www.cfsn.com/sulph.html

http://www.mercola.com/1999/apr/4/secretin_autism.htm

http://www.mercola.com/1999/apr/11/l_cyste...ism_caution.htm

 

What is the health risk of too much vitamin B6 ?

Too much vitamin B6 can result in nerve damage to the arms and legs. This neuropathy is usually related to high intake of vitamin B6 from supplements, (28) and is reversible when supplementation is stopped. According to the Institute of Medicine, "Several reports show sensory neuropathy at doses lower than 500 mg per day". As previously mentioned, the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine has established an upper tolerable intake level (UL) for vitamin B6 of 100 mg per day for all adults. "As intake increases above the UL, the risk of adverse effects increases."

[institute of Medicine. Food and Nutrition Board. Dietary Reference Intakes: Thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6, folate, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, biotin, and choline. National Academy Press. Washington, DC, 1998. ]

http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitb6.html#risk

 

How does mercury toxicity affect methylation?

 

Mercury toxicity may disrupt this cycle making it practically unsolvable until the metals are removed.

 

Mercury is highly attracted to sulfur. If there is mercury floating around, it will gravitate to sulfur compounds and tie them up. Any or all of the sulfur reactions will be faulty, and it will be hard to fix unless (or until) you remove the mercury or other metals. If you are mercury toxic and you do anything to increase methylation, you may increase cysteine. So if a child responds badly to high B6, mercury toxicity is a possibility because it more directly increases cysteine. Instead of this increase being beneficial, it may very likely attract mercury, and thus increase mercury movement and cause further damage…so you just can't win. You need to increase the sulfur compounds to detox the mercury (and other things), but these same sulfur compounds also start to float the mercury and cause worse problems as it moves around....

 

One interpretation is if you respond well to B6 and possibly TMG then you may be an under-methylator and may not have severe mercury toxicity.

*****This is what cysteine is about, if you are severely mercury toxic then you are caught since you need more cysteine to function since the mercury takes it out, but if you have more cysteine you mobilize the mercury and you get more doing damage.*****

 

-----------------------------------

 

also, from Houston Nutr re B3:

 

Q: How does high dose niacin (vitamin B3) fit in with methylation?

A: Actually excess niacin is metabolized by methylation and thus uses up methyl groups. One source suggests to aim for under 75mg (usually ~50mg) of niacin+niacinamide per day from supplements. If you are taking large quantities of B3, please get your homocysteine and SAM checked to make sure this niacin isn't excessively taxing the methyl metabolism. Likewise some supplements have lots of B6 (e.g. 100mg) and between 20 and 50mg per day of B6, or less, might be better.

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Just had a quick read of this and your other no fenol threat post! I think you need a bichemistry degree to make any sense of this.

 

I guess it would be great if simply taking enzymes alleviates the need for so many other supplements, but I think this is to simple.

 

Why does mercury keep rearing its ugly head?

 

I'll have a good read of this stuff later once the kids are in bed.

 

I need to have a clear head to make head or tails of it.

 

Caz

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Claire,

 

Our son was never tested for pyroluria prior to going to Pfeiffer, so the only B-6 he is getting is in the primer we were given.

 

According to Michael Lang who spoke at last spring's DAN conference (he had two autiistic children of his own that have since lost their diagnosis and are doing wonderfully) you can tell if you are giving too much b-6 because an excess amount can cause excitability. In excess amounts it can be neuro-toxic. He recommends starting gradually. That is about all I know. Pfeiffer didn't ever mention anything about b-6 and enzymes to me. Sorry I'm not more help.

 

Jennifer

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Hi Claire,

 

I knew nothing about enzymes when I talked with Pfeiffer, so we didn't discuss it. My son is taking 200 mg B6 and 25 mg P5P, plus a B complex with 50 mg of everything. Seems like a high amount to take forever, so I did plan on asking the nurse about it. He does seem to be remembering dreams much better - isn't that a sign that he's absorbing more B6? He used to say he never had dreams. (We actually had similar dreams the other night - kind of weird!)

 

Anyway, 2 days gluten-free and counting. Luckily, I just looked through the 10 pieces of candy he kept from halloween and realized he couldn't have the Twix and another candy bar that had wheat ingredients. He's happily exchanging them for other treats. They were both very happy to get baseball cards in exchange for all the other candy.

 

Nancy

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Hi Nancy,

 

Yes, that is definitely supposed to be the correlation. In fact, according to Pfeiffer, remembering dreams is the indicator that they are getting enough B6 (for those who had the symptom of not remembering a dream almost daily)

 

Maybe that is what would distinguish 'too much B6"? Adding B6 (combo with P5P) until they still remember their dreams, then cutting back until they still remember their dreams. If the enzymes truly result in greater absorption, then it will take less B6 to remember their dreams.

 

I am changing this post after reading Heather's post below--in case some newcomer doesn't read the entire thread. I go back to recommending doing the pyroluria test before treating for it (even with poor dream recall) with additional B6.

 

Of course Heather's dosage for her child was by no stretch a 'megadose'. Even in the heated debates on Braintalk, 200 mg/day was considered 'safe'. Pfeiffer says rarely do they see the neuropathy.

 

But her post (below--this is like time travel here), potentially highlights the various absorption variations between our children.

 

Claire

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Hi,

 

Yes, the dream issue appears to be a marker as I have read that in many different pieces of literature.

 

Here is my problem. My son is having tingling sensations in the tips of his fingers. He describes it as an itchy feeling. This is why he has been squeezing his fingers and pinching and rubbing his jeans. I thought it was just fidgeting and he told me tonight that it isn't an uncontrollable urge he is having. He is doing it because it alleviates the itchy tingly feeling in his fingers. This has me now thinking that I am giving him too much B6 (100 mg) plus 40 mg P5P since this numb, tingly feeling is a symptom of too much B6, is it not??? Any other thoughts here.

He is still not recalling any dreams.

 

The other thing is that I am not keeping up with the multi vitamin since I am having trouble finding one that doesn't have copper. So perhaps the mega dose of B6 is causing a deficiency in other B's. I have read the importance of a multi B while using high B6 but before tonight he wouldn't swallow pills and I had such trouble getting him to take the multi B since I had to crush it in applesauce and it tasted horrible. This is why I persisted with the pill swallowing tonight and he finally did it (combination of using a straw and trying first with a Sundrop chocolate candy). So now I am going to give the Multi B and back off on the B6 and see if this helps. The tics are now completely gone. It is only this tingling that is bothering him.

 

Heather

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Thanks for sharing Heather. Really emphasized the point of the balancing--and really makes me wonder about the B6 vs enzymes. I think I will cut my son's other vitamins way down now with enzymes. Mine too!

 

Thank goodness that if it is neuropathy it is completely reversible if you stop the B6!!!

 

 

Claire

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Yes, it is somewhat comforting to know that this condition is reversible when the B6 is stopped, although it freaks me out a little that this fidgeting with the hands has been going on for a couple of weeks.

 

My son is reluctant to discuss his tics these days and just wants them to be a non-issue. He has always said they don't bother him and he just doesn't want to talk about it. So, when this hand thing started, I just didn't want to bring it up since I didn't want to stress him out about it. When I asked him last week after school one day, he just said "mom, I don't want to talk about it". So I dropped it. Then last night it seemed to be worse so I pursued it and told him I just wanted to ask a few questions. Thank God I did!!! I say thank God in literal terms since just yesterday afternoon I prayed asking for guidance in what step to take next with the fidgeting. I knew I was going to get some testing done but was in a quandry of what to do in the short term.

 

Well, for some reason I just felt the need to question Will last night and force him to tell me about the feelings he was having with his hands. This is when the tingling issue came out. Now I feel awful that I didn't pursue it further before with him. I have now discussed with him the importance of telling me about anything odd or different that he might be feeling. He does say that it hasn't worsened since it started and there have been periods when he hasn't been doing it at all. He said it is not constant, just every once in awhile. I am eager to see what happens over the next couple of days with no B6.

 

Heather

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