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Oppositional Defiant Disorder


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We are really having a problem with our son listening. He just turned 7 yesterday. He is on abx, just switched from amox to biaxin and showing little improvement. In fact, the excitement of his birthday and the end of school brought forth a flurry of tics and compulsions.

 

However, the not listening has been on going and only getting worse. Some things I have chalked up to compulsion at this point, but others - I'm really at a loss. I have read some info that says ODD is common. For instance, the most common (and scary) thing he does is tell us he is going out to ride his bike, scooter, skateboard etc... Often it is before he is even dressed or it could be bad weather. We tell him 'NO' and he just announces "I am GOING" and is gone! When I go after him and tell him to get back inside - I have to tell him several times, often go physically to him and take his arm to get him inside (I don't have to drag him, but need to physically get his attention by touch). He does this with other things, we are telling him no and he is just continuing to do it - get a piece of candy, break a toy, etc...

 

And of course, no matter HOW monotone and calmly I continue to repeat myself and address him, it turns into a screaming mess of "you are MEAN, stop yelling at me!"

 

Does this sound like ODD, or just an aspect of ADHD, impulse control or have I just lost all control here?

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My husband and I attended a class on the behavioral program 1-2-3 Magic-it is quite a simple program (you can probably google it). What it did for us was reinforce the need for less talking and just immediate follow through on discipline. IT has eliminated most of the screaming matches when my daughter is really out of control.

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I am sorry to hear that you are going through this - Our DD7 was diagnosed with ODD before we found out she was actually a PANDAS child... When she was in bad exasperation mode a simple request of "please pick you shoes up" or "no you cant do that right now" would turn into full blown rage - we got her under control with a high does of amox (500mg)and augmentin (1000)- and it tokk about 2months until we saw improvement... she did pretty well for a few months and then we ran out of meds and have not been able to get in touch with the presrcibing dr - I see some behaviors creeping back in (irrational fears, anger, germs) these where gone for about 2 months... so to answer your question... IMO I thoink it sounds like a PANDAS form of ODD. Befor our DD was on meds she had 'episodes" in the winter when there was tons of snow and ice - she would go outside barefoot and refuse to come in! We would have to drag her back in while she was screaming kicking scratching hitting about how mean we were.... It is very frustrating - I know! - because the raod is long but luckily we have found this forum so it not quite as lonely-

 

Have you tried the augmentin? or a combination of the meds?

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I should add - I think I FINALLY found a therapist :) And more importantly, convinced my husband that it is necessary. It's more for me than for DS actually as I need help knowing how to parent this child I now have as opposed to the one I had 6 months ago :huh:

 

It's sad that it takes running out of the house for me to jump to immediate action. Obviously that will NOT be tolerated under ANY circumstances. So it leads me to wonder if I can get control over that, why not the less serious infractions?

 

Sometimes I feel like I just adopted a child from a foreign country and have no idea what to do with him :( No idea how to communicate to him. And HE is obviously just as frustrated as me, which makes it even worse. I can tell this upsets him a great deal too. He seems to want me to control it for him.

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I am sorry to hear that you are going through this - Our DD7 was diagnosed with ODD before we found out she was actually a PANDAS child... When she was in bad exasperation mode a simple request of "please pick you shoes up" or "no you cant do that right now" would turn into full blown rage - we got her under control with a high does of amox (500mg)and augmentin (1000)- and it tokk about 2months until we saw improvement... she did pretty well for a few months and then we ran out of meds and have not been able to get in touch with the presrcibing dr - I see some behaviors creeping back in (irrational fears, anger, germs) these where gone for about 2 months... so to answer your question... IMO I thoink it sounds like a PANDAS form of ODD. Befor our DD was on meds she had 'episodes" in the winter when there was tons of snow and ice - she would go outside barefoot and refuse to come in! We would have to drag her back in while she was screaming kicking scratching hitting about how mean we were.... It is very frustrating - I know! - because the raod is long but luckily we have found this forum so it not quite as lonely-

 

Have you tried the augmentin? or a combination of the meds?

 

I was posting the same time as you :huh:

 

Yes, it sounds like very similar episodes. He was out all day today in the rain, but it was HOT so I let it go. I didn't see harm in it. But then when I saw lightning and told him he had to come in, WWIII...

 

He cant' take augmentin. He had a very bad reaction to it when he was younger and had "glue ear" I am realizing we may still need to adjust meds. We're only 7 months into this - from first signs to now.

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We are really having a problem with our son listening. He just turned 7 yesterday. He is on abx, just switched from amox to biaxin and showing little improvement. In fact, the excitement of his birthday and the end of school brought forth a flurry of tics and compulsions.

 

However, the not listening has been on going and only getting worse. Some things I have chalked up to compulsion at this point, but others - I'm really at a loss. I have read some info that says ODD is common. For instance, the most common (and scary) thing he does is tell us he is going out to ride his bike, scooter, skateboard etc... Often it is before he is even dressed or it could be bad weather. We tell him 'NO' and he just announces "I am GOING" and is gone! When I go after him and tell him to get back inside - I have to tell him several times, often go physically to him and take his arm to get him inside (I don't have to drag him, but need to physically get his attention by touch). He does this with other things, we are telling him no and he is just continuing to do it - get a piece of candy, break a toy, etc...

 

And of course, no matter HOW monotone and calmly I continue to repeat myself and address him, it turns into a screaming mess of "you are MEAN, stop yelling at me!"

 

Does this sound like ODD, or just an aspect of ADHD, impulse control or have I just lost all control here?

OMG! I know this child! When my ds was 5 I took him to get a psych eval b/c I was afraid of ODD. My ds has the exact same behaviors you are describing- had them tonight if you see other my post. She told me it was not ODD b/c it was not pervasive- but said he had ADHD- I did a QEEG later that said he did not and 2 other Drs said no to ADHD b/c when he saw them he as calm and could focus. Looking back it was probably PANDAS and he was probably in exacerbation when the 1st eval was made.

I am searching for the answer to the same question- is it PANDAS or is it something else? Tonight was one of those nights I looked at my ds and thought maybe it isn't PANDAS and there is something mental wrong here- I don't know how to handle him when he is like that-I have tried a million different approaches and NOTHING works!

Brandy

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Boy, can I feel your pain. :wacko: We feel our son has been dealing with this PANDAS thing for a good 7 years before we knew the ODD that we had been dealing with in the traditional behavior methods was not just ODD. Like Dr. K says: ODD, PDD, etc--these are just symptoms!! We know every tool in the book, but it still stands--if he is operating on all cylinders the techniques work. If he isn't it is very difficult. We have had to quit beating ourselves up over years of thinking our parenting skills were to blame. I thank God we have had the therapists we have and continue to have and continue to see. Like I tell my husband, even the worst kids with the worst set of parents most likely wouldn't scream the garbage at us or attack us the way our son has because he flips over losing the computer. Make the consequences clear & simple and know which ones you'll go to the mat on. It is a very delicate line we walk, but do not beat yourselves up. Someday the techniques will work. Dawn

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My daughter tends to have "safety ocd"- a lot of her anxiety comes from exaggeration of safety rules. But, it has helped with what looks like defiance sometimes to tell her its not safe- like the lightning issue- it really isn't. The danger is that she'll then have lots of anxiety over the lightning- but it'll be in the house. I just wish it was as effective to tell her something IS safe- like elevators!

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We are really having a problem with our son listening. He just turned 7 yesterday.

 

However, the not listening has been on going and only getting worse. We tell him 'NO' and he just announces "I am GOING" and is gone! When I go after him and tell him to get back inside - I have to tell him several times, often go physically to him and take his arm to get him inside (I don't have to drag him, but need to physically get his attention by touch). He does this with other things, we are telling him no and he is just continuing to do it - get a piece of candy, break a toy, etc...

 

And of course, no matter HOW monotone and calmly I continue to repeat myself and address him, it turns into a screaming mess of "you are MEAN, stop yelling at me!"

 

tantrums - i'm sorry if i've suggested this to you before and i know i repeat it annoyingly. it's just been such a help for us -- the book the explosive child.

 

i found it last year the day after a horrible tantrum leaving my mom's house. ds, then just 5, was opening the car door as i was driving. he was upset b/c he was not cooperating to leave and i picked him up and put him in the car. he was working on something and then left a piece of it in the house. it was such a horrific tantrum and i wouldn't go back for it b/c he was so beligerent trying to leave and once we got out. i had to stop the car, take him out and sat on the sidewalk with my arms and legs wrapped around him, the whole while, him screeching. a postman kept looking at us, i think wondering whether he should call the cops. the next day, we were in the library and that book practically lept off the shelf at me.

 

of course, i don't know the specifics, but i think your son is not choosing not to listen. i would think he's not processing what's going on correctly. the more you try to get him to listen and comply, the more he just can't process.

 

what do you say once you've said no and he becomes odd? do you try to hold your ground more firmly? when you say you are monotone and repeating yourself, are you repeating your position or his? with this plan, you don't continuing stating your position, you state his. "i'm going." you say, "you're going?".

 

according to this book, you have to temporarily let go of your ground to avoid the blowup to make progress. it doesn't mean you let go totally and let him have his way -- just for that immediate time. someone recently wrote, reasoning at that time is like trying to talk to an alcholic about his drinking problem while he's drunk. you just need to calm the situation. later, when everyone's calm, you can discuss what went wrong and how you could all better react next time.

 

when asked, my son has given us suggestions about how he would like us to speak to him when he is getting out of control. it doesn't always work and we still can find ourselves in frustrating battles, but more often than not, it's a very helpful tool.

 

i don't think i think of it as much as a way to help him learn to control himself but as a way to help me deal with him when he is irrational, b/c i don't have much patience in general. when you work on things in the calm times, that when it can be useful to shape behavior and reactions.

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We did a listening therapy with both our sons (just turned 6) called Dynamic Listening. It follows the Tomatis method. When they first started, they were tested and it was amazing to see the results. One of my sons had the sound coming in one ear and he heard it in the other. His brain mixed it all up. The other son also showed problems processing what he heard but it was not as dramatic.

 

The method is used with many children for lots of reasons including ADD, Autism etc. I was skeptical and absolutly schocked with the results especially for the one son. Previously, he had always been the kid that would drop everthing, spill everything, get easily frustrated when he could not do something. Scream in frustration a the drop of a hat (no punn intended). I had to ask him to do things over and over and over.

 

Within 6 sessions of the therapy he was a different child. It was truly life changing. His interest in learning, his ability to focus, his willingness to try new things has all changed. Even his athletic ability and his coordination is highly improved. To be honest, I am not sure yet if the therapy had as dramatic an efffect on the other son. During the time we were doing the therapy he had Micoplasma and we did not know it until recently. Now that we are treating it he is much better, but it is harder for me to tell the difference in his listening or rather his managing and processing info.

 

We are now finished with the program. We did 90 hours in all. The boys basicly would wear headphones and listen to classical music while various sounds were playing in the backround. They played the whole time and did not mind doing it at all.

 

We are in California and did it with a company called Dynamic Listening Center in Santa Monica Ca. I am sure there are other places thoughout the country. You can google it and read all about it. It was pricy and insurance did not cover it.....what a schock! But looking back on it all, I know for certain it was worth it for us.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Best, Kari

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My dd had this as a symptom of pandas...all....the....time. The ONLY thing that helped her was IVIg. In my opinion, no amount of parenting skills or counseling, etc will work when this is a pandas symptom and especially if it is extreme.

 

What would I do if this symptom started to come back to my child? I'd work with a doc to increase antibiotic doseage to a treatment dose strength for at least 10 days and add ibuprofen for a few days and see if that helped.

 

Wishing you the best,

amy s

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This is how my son's illness started...we saw it way before the compulsions came back. I have to agree with Amy...when they are in pandas mode I don't think there are too many tricks that work...they are in fight or flight mode at this moment...you can't fight centuries of instinct evolution. It took me a lot of chasing before I finally caught on, and of course it is all easy to write while not in the situation at this time. This is my goal at least! The only thing I can say that may help is if you haven't already, reduce your expectations a lot. And if he does something against your wishes punishing him while he is in "pandas mode" probably won't work, and it will just prolong the episode. As long as he or someone else isn't in danger you are going to have to let him do what he is going to do. So basically, control the situation by not losing control...try to say no less or just ignore. If he does something against your wishes, like run outside after you have said no, punish him after the fact, when it gets it out of his system. As he is doing it you can say something like "this is not appropriate, and you will be punished." I leave the punishment up to you. At the time my son was very into his DS so if he did something bad he would have to earn it back by performing so many good deeds. The good deeds would be anything...small or large. This way he had some control of the punishment, and at the same time he could realize how many good things he actually did during a day. He was having self-esteem issues...why is my sister so good and I'm so bad type of stuff. I'm not sure how much this helped us, but I think it kept my sanity. Feeling like I had lost all control was horrible. So my motto has became "control by not losing control". Good luck! Just some suggestions! Remember whatever works for your family is the right thing!!

Sarah

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