what about a vaccine for strep

[Amy B]

Hi everyone. I'm not online all the time so you may have talked about this before. What about a Strep A vaccine. Do we know anything about it. I had googled it and they were working on something. I didn't see a whole about it. Is anyone working on it do we know. If this is a dumb or repeated question "Sorry". Just curious and hopeful.

[Dr_Rosario_Trifiletti]

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QUOTE(Amy B @ Mar 10 2010, 07:24 PM) 59316[/snapback]

Hi everyone. I'm not online all the time so you may have talked about this before. What about a Strep A vaccine. Do we know anything about it. I had googled it and they were working on something. I didn't see a whole about it. Is anyone working on it do we know. If this is a dumb or repeated question "Sorry". Just curious and hopeful.

It is not a dumb question at all ...

 

In fact, this man has been thinking about this for many years

 

http://www.rockefeller.edu/research/facult...tract.php?id=40

 

This group is really Strep Central - started with Rebecca Lancefield in the 1930's continuing on through Avery, McCleod and McCarty, Zabriskie, Fischetti and (our own) Madeline Cunningham! I had the pleasure of interacting with some of these people in the late 90's when I first heard of PANDAS.

 

 

Dr. T

[thereishope]

A vaccine makes the body produce antibodies. So...if it's a strep vaccine, I would think the body would produce strep antibodies in reaction to the vaccine. That would not be good. PANDAS is caused by the antibodies, not strep itself. The autoimmune reaction would occur.

[peglem]

But, imagine if enough nonreactive kids got it...possibly schools would fail to be strep breeding grounds w/ constant exposure for our sensitive kids. BUT, it seems like when some strains are prevented from proliferating, others gain strength and fill in the gap. I'm still not certain that my daughter's immune system was not derailed by vaccines in the first place.

 

So, I guess I have mixed feelings about a vaccine.

[Fixit]

A vaccine makes the body produce antibodies. So...if it's a strep vaccine, I would think the body would produce strep antibodies in reaction to the vaccine. That would not be good. PANDAS is caused by the antibodies, not strep itself. The autoimmune reaction would occur.

 

 

That would be my thought too!! Another thing my edno corrected me as i was speaking about pand/pits was, i said DS would get strep, tic, get abx, go away in that order 10 times....he said it's not the strep its the antiboides.. and my eyes widened as i reallize he's got it(ps endo thinks myco will take a while to kick and will need a rotation

 

This morning i went to the pharmissit with my bag of everything i give ds.. he said, no concerns but that is alot of stuff...yes...i now

agian i was trying to spred the word about pan/pits and told him about myco p...he kinda sinched his face... i said what.... he says that can take months or longer to get rid of and rotating abx....and if we are not sure how long the anitbodies last, maybe that is why it can be slow and long...and why if others have had MP and go untreated its that slow long process of kicking it out or having the bbb closing till it cant' get in.

 

And, when i was at the dentist yesterday because ds filling fell out on monday, so i was spreading more info on pit/pans, i gave the example of pylori being a bug and no one beliveing the doc...and he cut me off because he wanted to add what he knew about it since he had it.....and, that he was on 2 abx's and something else at the same time to get rid of it....just another thought on maybe using 2 things at the same time to get MP

[Fixit]

But, imagine if enough nonreactive kids got it...possibly schools would fail to be strep breeding grounds w/ constant exposure for our sensitive kids. BUT, it seems like when some strains are prevented from proliferating, others gain strength and fill in the gap. I'm still not certain that my daughter's immune system was not derailed by vaccines in the first place.

 

So, I guess I have mixed feelings about a vaccine.

 

i agree,....as my son got a set of shots a couple of days after a feaver...i told the doc and he said if he doesn't have a feaver now its ok??????

[thereishope]

I just had an awful thought. What if it would be a live vaccine?! Then you have all these PANDAS kids who react to exposure or you have shedding occur?

 

I also bet a strep vaccine would start rather early in life. Perhaps being yet another factor that increases the number of PANDAS cases. It would also probably be a vaccine that you need to get more than once.

[ajcire]

If I knew nothing about pandas and a strep vaccine was offered I would not go for it because I really need to believe the benefit of the shot outweighs the risk and before pandas I believed strep to be really very simple.... get strep, get antibiotics, get better..... and there is no way I would give it to my pandas child.

 

 

 

 

I just had an awful thought. What if it would be a live vaccine?! Then you have all these PANDAS kids who react to exposure or you have shedding occur?

 

I also bet a strep vaccine would start rather early in life. Perhaps being yet another factor that increases the number of PANDAS cases. It would also probably be a vaccine that you need to get more than once.

[Amy B]

Thanks you really got me thinking. It would be great for the nonreactive kids because it would decrease the spreading. Not such a great idea for the pandas kids. I've been trying to think outside the box. It's a very small box.lol.

 

We went to pediatrician tonight. The rapid was neg. as always. She did give him abx, penicillian 10 days. I am very lucky to get that. They do not like to prescribe any antibiotics with out a positive. I'm just afraid its not strong enough and this illness might be a bad one. He has already started the eyes and mouth and some noisy tics. My dh is freaking out again. What do you think about the penicillan? They will not give out augmentin or azithro. They want to save those for when he's really sick. I did get ammmox a few months ago. I do think it helped. Thanks.

[ajcire]

One of my peds who was not quite on board with me on pandas... well he believes it exists but goes strictly by his little pamphlet on his believes of how it should be treated... he made me a copy of it because he was really impressed with himself that he had this info on it.. ha as if I didn't already have a book on it.. but even in his little pamphlet it made reference to amox and penicillian not being known for being highly effective with strep.

 

 

 

 

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QUOTE(Amy B @ Mar 12 2010, 02:34 AM) 59574[/snapback]

Thanks you really got me thinking. It would be great for the nonreactive kids because it would decrease the spreading. Not such a great idea for the pandas kids. I've been trying to think outside the box. It's a very small box.lol.

 

We went to pediatrician tonight. The rapid was neg. as always. She did give him abx, penicillian 10 days. I am very lucky to get that. They do not like to prescribe any antibiotics with out a positive. I'm just afraid its not strong enough and this illness might be a bad one. He has already started the eyes and mouth and some noisy tics. My dh is freaking out again. What do you think about the penicillan? They will not give out augmentin or azithro. They want to save those for when he's really sick. I did get ammmox a few months ago. I do think it helped. Thanks.

[thereishope]

Did they send a sample out to culture? My family has had negative rapids, just to have the culture come back +. Always remember...

 

First the rapid. If that is negative, then culture. If the culture is neg, then blood tests.

 

Unfortunatley, a lot of kids on here do not respond to penicillin. However, there are some who do. So if it's worked for your child before, you can try it. That's up to you. Here is an article that you may have be given before. Hopefully, if the pen is going to work, you will see some improvement within a few days. Not full improvement, but something. It is a long recovery. If you see improvement, I suggest communicating that with your doctor.

 

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/.../169459644.html

 

What you also need to remember is that strep can exist in other places than the throat. Strep in the sinuses, ears, gut, vaginal, anal, strep on the skin. Also, in subsequent exacerbations, even something viral or allergies can cause PANDAS symptoms to ramp up. Then you start to look more outside the box. Has anyone else in the family been sick? You can test family members. Some PANDAS kids react to EXPOSURE.

 

It's good to know these things as they help you keep your sanity when you thought for sure that strep test was going to be positive.

 

 

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Amy B @ Mar 12 2010, 02:34 AM) 59574[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks you really got me thinking. It would be great for the nonreactive kids because it would decrease the spreading. Not such a great idea for the pandas kids. I've been trying to think outside the box. It's a very small box.lol.

 

We went to pediatrician tonight. The rapid was neg. as always. She did give him abx, penicillian 10 days. I am very lucky to get that. They do not like to prescribe any antibiotics with out a positive. I'm just afraid its not strong enough and this illness might be a bad one. He has already started the eyes and mouth and some noisy tics. My dh is freaking out again. What do you think about the penicillan? They will not give out augmentin or azithro. They want to save those for when he's really sick. I did get ammmox a few months ago. I do think it helped. Thanks.

[Dr_Rosario_Trifiletti]

I think you are all hitting on the basic problem with all vaccines:

 

1. The vast majority of kids do fine with vaccines. Vaccines have done a huge amount to reduce disease in the last century. Smallpox is history. In the 1950's Jonas Salk was a national hero and people couldn't wait to give their children the polio vaccine. How the world has changed!

 

2. If you vaccinate enough children you will produce herd immunity, which means the chance of an unvaccinated individual encountering the infectious agent is very low. So, to a certain point, a low level of unvaccinated children (or vaccine failures) can be tolerated in the population at large.

 

BUT I think it is clear

 

A small percentage of children do not do well with vaccines. Perhaps they legitimately ought not to be vaccinated. I'm starting to think that some children with PANDAS might be in that group

 

The problem with current policy is that we vaccinate pretty much all children with 20+ doses of various vaccines by the age of 18 months (most before 6 months)

 

I view vaccines a little like concussions to the immune system. They are punches to the immune system, which are intended to make it tougher. But it takes the body time to recover. Too many too close together, just like concussions, can be a major problem. We CAN'T STOP doing them in general, we just have to be more intelligent with how we do them.

 

The big challenge to medicine in this area is then to find a way to "pick out" those children who are much more likely to have vaccine reactions from those that will not. This has to be done at the time of birth, since vaccines start then. Further complicating matters is the fact that the newborn (born sterile) has a very different immune system from the older child. This is going to take a few decades, at least, to figure out.

[Fixit]

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QUOTE(Amy B @ Mar 12 2010, 02:34 AM) 59574[/snapback]

Thanks you really got me thinking. It would be great for the nonreactive kids because it would decrease the spreading. Not such a great idea for the pandas kids. I've been trying to think outside the box. It's a very small box.lol.

 

We went to pediatrician tonight. The rapid was neg. as always. She did give him abx, penicillian 10 days. I am very lucky to get that. They do not like to prescribe any antibiotics with out a positive. I'm just afraid its not strong enough and this illness might be a bad one. He has already started the eyes and mouth and some noisy tics. My dh is freaking out again. What do you think about the penicillan? They will not give out augmentin or azithro. They want to save those for when he's really sick. I did get ammmox a few months ago. I do think it helped. Thanks.

 

from 2 1/2,3-5 penicillian worked for ds,,,,at age 5 either the dose wasn't highe nough or a bad strain and we couldn't get rid of it and that's when son got jioint pains and the tic changed from blink to shrug...doc said allerig to pen,,,,DrK and i think RF,,,so after 12-16 days pen we switched(and i could tell it wasn't working and got them to extend pen before the joint pain started.....once joint pain came in, then they switched abxs) and then tics started to ease in about a week and then gone 3 weeks late

i would say watch to see how he is in week...if things arent' right...don't wait to switch or see if they'll up dose

[thereishope]

I want to add that I am not saying I am "anti vaccine". To be honest, I don't know what my feelings are about vaccines, in general. I know some are needed, but I know some may do more harm than good. I know vaccines seem to be getting out control. I have not had to vaccinate any of my kids since PANDAS entered our life. When the time comes, I will have a lot of soul searching to do.

[peglem]

Further complicating matters is the fact that the newborn (born sterile) has a very different immune system from the older child.

 

Then why, why, why in the world would they give the hepB vaccine on the day a child is born? That seems so dangerous to me, especially given that very few newborns are at risk for this disease!