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Signs of OCD in a young child


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meg's mom - i will certainly always defer to your judgment b/c i think of you as the definitive expert in OCD and your posts are so level-headed and reasonable. what would you think of keeping the order as the examples of behavior and then a definition of the OCD thought?

 

as i'm reading this i'm thinking about that i used to work for an environmental organization in their legislative office on Capital Hill (can you tell i'm a bit of a hippie - environmentalism, homeopathy?). we had to always be cautious when working with members or other organizations elsewhere to not use our 'inside the beltway vernacular'. who is the audience you're seeking to write this for? is it 'innocent' parents who are trying to discover what's up with their child and all they know is that there's some whacky behaviors going on. i tend to think they could identify with the behaviors first and then move to the definition of what it means in OCD terms.

 

I think I agree with this - I have listed them under the Obsession categories (so that parents might begin to get a sense of the thought behind the compulsion) but I have listed almost entirely behaviors vs thoughts. In general, it is the behaviors (usually the compulsions) that parents will see & that young kids can communicate. (and any "expertise" is sadly due to misdiagnosis for far too long, and feeling that ERP was our only tool to help our daughter through so many horrid onsets. With severe OCD in our house, it felt like there was no choice but to immerse ourselves in her world. Having medical help now is such a blessing).

 

I think I included most thoughts from the group -it is very long. I'll post it in a new thread - hopefully the site will take a post that long!! We shall see....

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hello.. a new one for us tonight.. nailbiting. I knew it was the other side of the trichotillimania coin (along with skin picking) but "I do it 'cos I like to feel the nail bits stuck between my teeth" sure feels OCD to me. Both my kids have started nail biting in this last week - we've had flu in our house.....

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One idea for organizing is to start the thread with an intro of what the thread is about. Then start adding comment posts. each comment post is a new OCD catagory.

 

 

 

meg's mom - i will certainly always defer to your judgment b/c i think of you as the definitive expert in OCD and your posts are so level-headed and reasonable. what would you think of keeping the order as the examples of behavior and then a definition of the OCD thought?

 

as i'm reading this i'm thinking about that i used to work for an environmental organization in their legislative office on Capital Hill (can you tell i'm a bit of a hippie - environmentalism, homeopathy?). we had to always be cautious when working with members or other organizations elsewhere to not use our 'inside the beltway vernacular'. who is the audience you're seeking to write this for? is it 'innocent' parents who are trying to discover what's up with their child and all they know is that there's some whacky behaviors going on. i tend to think they could identify with the behaviors first and then move to the definition of what it means in OCD terms.

 

I think I agree with this - I have listed them under the Obsession categories (so that parents might begin to get a sense of the thought behind the compulsion) but I have listed almost entirely behaviors vs thoughts. In general, it is the behaviors (usually the compulsions) that parents will see & that young kids can communicate. (and any "expertise" is sadly due to misdiagnosis for far too long, and feeling that ERP was our only tool to help our daughter through so many horrid onsets. With severe OCD in our house, it felt like there was no choice but to immerse ourselves in her world. Having medical help now is such a blessing).

 

I think I included most thoughts from the group -it is very long. I'll post it in a new thread - hopefully the site will take a post that long!! We shall see....

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Nail biting is OCD.

 

 

hello.. a new one for us tonight.. nailbiting. I knew it was the other side of the trichotillimania coin (along with skin picking) but "I do it 'cos I like to feel the nail bits stuck between my teeth" sure feels OCD to me. Both my kids have started nail biting in this last week - we've had flu in our house.....
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Sorry, I thought we were just making a list so I deliberately left mine short.

 

I answered, "fixation on violent images and thoughts."

 

For some of us, our children never exhibit the classic signs we all look for (and which I myself exhibited as a little girl)-- lining things up, counting, guilty feelings, confessing. (Most recently, I think Tantrums describes her son this way.)

 

My son is aggressively messy and, at the worst of it, he seemed to have no conscience at all. He was all violent drive.

 

I would never have considered him OCD at all, until someone (Trifiletti?) explained to me that his fixation on violent fantasies (which he would act out in play repeatedly, much to my alarm) was actually a manifestation of OCD.

 

Oh, and here was another one someone mentioned once, which really opened my eyes:

-- constantly insists on new toys.

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Oh, and here was another one someone mentioned once, which really opened my eyes:

-- constantly insists on new toys.

 

This almost makes me cry. This is my child during an episode. And he comes across as a spoiled brat. People don't understand what is going on. And I have to add the new toy fixation to the fact that he always doubts his decision. So he is constantly asking to go back to the store for something else he saw. Interesting to hear it classified by someone else as OCD. I always knew it was.

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Just want to add my perspective/question on "obsessive need to pee". I match so many of the symptoms, including urinary frequency and lack of control, and I strongly believe I have PANDAS. I haven't had any strep tests and am waiting for the CamK number from the Cunningham Study. I have had the urinary frequency since childhood, as long as I can remember, and I'm sure I have many things where "obsessive need to" applies, but I find the phrase "obsessive need to pee" strange, at least for my circumstance. It's a real physical need, and can only be held in so long. Are there actually kids that don't physically need to pee but do feel some obsessive need to pee?

 

Michael

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It's hard to say why they feel they need to go right after being in the bathroom. My son did that sometimes. He would walk out of the bathroom and say he needed to go again. Since he was only 5, there were a couple of times I went in to see if he actually had anything and if he wasn't emptying his bladder. He'd only have a drip come out the second time.

 

For parents whose children are going to the bathroom a lot, it may be importnat to know if they are actually urinating that much or not. I admit to putting my ear to the door to see if I could hear urinating. It will help you know if you should take the child in for UTI or bladder infection. Also, if they are using peeing as an excuse to wash hands mroe often. This was another reason my son would use the bathroom more. Children learn at a young age to lie to complete their compulsions.

 

So, my son visited the bathroom often for different reasons. During exacerbation #1, it was an excuse for handwashing. He'd go through the whole motion of trying to pee to justify washing his hands again.

 

In other exacerbations (when he did not haveexcessive hand washing) it was some need or fear or something that he was convinced he needed to go again.

 

Frequent urination is a PANDAS symptom too. During excerbation #3, he was wetting his bed a lot.

 

So, it's a symptom that could fall under various umbrellas. You really have to be detective to figure out what the reason is.

 

 

Just want to add my perspective/question on "obsessive need to pee". I match so many of the symptoms, including urinary frequency and lack of control, and I strongly believe I have PANDAS. I haven't had any strep tests and am waiting for the CamK number from the Cunningham Study. I have had the urinary frequency since childhood, as long as I can remember, and I'm sure I have many things where "obsessive need to" applies, but I find the phrase "obsessive need to pee" strange, at least for my circumstance. It's a real physical need, and can only be held in so long. Are there actually kids that don't physically need to pee but do feel some obsessive need to pee?

 

Michael

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I moved the summary to this thread: http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?...amp;#entry47398

 

Let me know what needs to be edited or changed. Such amazing responses - I am sorry that you are all experiencing these, but so appreciate your sharing them. So many times I hear a parent say "she can't have PANDAS, we don't have OCD or tics". And then they talk about a behavior that sounds like it may be OCD. Hopefully all these examples will help other kids get help. Thanks again.

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I have had the urinary frequency since childhood, as long as I can remember, and I'm sure I have many things where "obsessive need to" applies, but I find the phrase "obsessive need to pee" strange, at least for my circumstance. It's a real physical need, and can only be held in so long. Are there actually kids that don't physically need to pee but do feel some obsessive need to pee?

 

Michael

 

 

I agree with Micheal. I don't think frequent urination is necessarily OCD. I think for PANDAS kids it is often a real physical feeling of urgency...like someone feels when they have a bladder infection.

 

Something similar happens in parkinson's http://www.parkinsons.org.nz/books/Parkins...dthebladder.pdf (I added the bold):

 

PARKINSON’S AND THE BLADDER

Bladder problems are common in people of all ages and both sexes, with or without Parkinson’s.

However, having Parkinson’s can cause particular problems.

How Parkinson’s affects the bladder

While the bladder is being filled a person is not conscious of the process. Only when the bladder is

full does it sends a signal to the brain that it’s time for emptying. The brain – consciously now -

keeps the bladder from emptying until the person has found a toilet. Then, the brain gives the

bladder the go ahead to release. Part of the brain that controls this process is in the basal ganglia,

where Parkinson’s symptoms originate.

But because the basal ganglia are faulty, the bladder/brain connection goes awry. The result is an

unstable or irritable bladder that contracts when it contains low amounts of urine. These

contractions aren’t strong enough to directly cause the bladder to empty, but they do create a strong

urge to urinate. This is called urinary urgency.There are two main problems that can occur with the bladder in Parkinson’s:

• An overactive or ‘unstable’ bladder

• Difficulty in emptying

Not everyone with Parkinson’s will have these problems and some may only have them mildly or

intermittently.

The unstable bladder

This happens when messages from the brain telling the bladder to hang on and relax are not getting

through properly. Instead of being able to delay finding a toilet, you experience urgency, and have

to go. If you can’t reach the toilet in time, incontinence may result. This is called ‘urge

incontinence’.

Your bladder may also need emptying more often than before, and may wake you at night, or even

empty while you sleep.

Difficulty emptying

Your Parkinson’s may give you problems with starting to empty your bladder, either because:

• You may have trouble keeping a bladder contraction going till the bladder is quite empty

• The bladder doesn’t start contracting when you want it to

• The sphincter doesn’t relax to allow urine out; or

• A combination of these.

This means a residual amount of urine is often left in the bladder. This can cause a feeling of

needing to empty the bladder very often, and, if the residue is large enough, it may overflow as a

dribbling incontinence you can’t control.

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I have had the urinary frequency since childhood, as long as I can remember, and I'm sure I have many things where "obsessive need to" applies, but I find the phrase "obsessive need to pee" strange, at least for my circumstance. It's a real physical need, and can only be held in so long. Are there actually kids that don't physically need to pee but do feel some obsessive need to pee?

 

Michael

 

 

I agree with Micheal. I don't think frequent urination is necessarily OCD. I think for PANDAS kids it is often a real physical feeling of urgency...like someone feels when they have a bladder infection.

 

Something similar happens in parkinson's http://www.parkinsons.org.nz/books/Parkins...dthebladder.pdf (I added the bold):

 

PARKINSON’S AND THE BLADDER

Bladder problems are common in people of all ages and both sexes, with or without Parkinson’s.

However, having Parkinson’s can cause particular problems.

How Parkinson’s affects the bladder

While the bladder is being filled a person is not conscious of the process. Only when the bladder is

full does it sends a signal to the brain that it’s time for emptying. The brain – consciously now -

keeps the bladder from emptying until the person has found a toilet. Then, the brain gives the

bladder the go ahead to release. Part of the brain that controls this process is in the basal ganglia,

where Parkinson’s symptoms originate.

But because the basal ganglia are faulty, the bladder/brain connection goes awry. The result is an

unstable or irritable bladder that contracts when it contains low amounts of urine. These

contractions aren’t strong enough to directly cause the bladder to empty, but they do create a strong

urge to urinate. This is called urinary urgency.There are two main problems that can occur with the bladder in Parkinson’s:

• An overactive or ‘unstable’ bladder

• Difficulty in emptying

Not everyone with Parkinson’s will have these problems and some may only have them mildly or

intermittently.

.....

 

I don't think we are talking about contradictory things. I would gess that they often co-exist. A medical issue can be taken up by OCD and turned into an obsession and a compulsion. I think it is very likely that children with PANDAS do have something going on medically - that they feel "wet" or feel an urge to pee inappropriately. However, just as a person with Parkinson's should not be trapped at home - a child with urinary urges can learn tools to cope while they are waiting for antibiotics to work. OCD turned a "feeling of wetness & a feeling of needing to pee 2 second after actually peeing" - into a debilitating ritual that trapped Meg in the house, and caused incredible distress. It was not possible to allow another day to pass without giving her a tool to deal with this. A person with Parkinsons might wear Depends, and learn to set their watch every 2 hours to set up a schedule for peeing. A child that feels the need to pee or wipe cannot actually spend their day and night in the restroom - or wipe until they are raw. Or change panties every 20 minutes. Teaching them the tools to delay, setting up a schedule of acceptable times, etc - is an enourmous relief whatever the cause.

 

Also, there are different degrees of this right? Some parents may report that the child is having actual accidents - especially at night. This is a very different issue that OCD turning a need to pee into a debilitating compulsion. Are there any actual studies showing whether this is a common compulsion in both children with PANDAS and children with "regular" OCD? I am not aware of any - many therapists/parents seem to think this is common on both sides of the spectrum. I always tend to think they might have PANDAS and tell them so, but then that is my bias! So if a child feels the need to pee - and then does - well, that is different. If a child feels the need to pee within a few minutes of emptying their bladder and consistently does not actually need to void - and this turns into a debilitating compulsion - then that is another thing entirely. For some of our kids, they are not having accidents - they just feel like they will - all the time.

 

Another issue is the one Vickie validly raises. That children may white lie to go to wash their hands. Our teacher raised this with us - that Meg was using the restroom so much that she could not get her work done. The question of a bladder infection was raised. It was not - she was just "urgently needing" to wash her hands immediately and she knew if she said that it was a "pee emergency" they would always say yes. So this item can validly be listed and interpreted in a variety of ways, depending on the situation and the child.

 

I don't think Meg was ever more motivated to learn a "brain trick" than when she was thinking that she had to pee constantly. It made her miserable.

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Interesting information on the Parkinson's and the PANDAS children needing to go (or saying they do) right after coming out. It happens to me very frequently, and worse during exacerbations, that I will leave the restroom/bathroom and 5 or 10 or 20 seconds later the rest is dribbling down my legs. Of course the kids wanting to go right back could have other reasons (so they can wash their hands again, if they have that compulsion), but could it also be they are in a similar situation to me, but perhaps with just a touch more control/awareness than me?

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Some other thoughts surfacing about my 7 yr old rght now, always needing to be first or to win (seemed normal kid stuff before but now it seems to be taking an OCD turn). She also counts her bites and compares them to others who are also eating. "how many bites have you taken? I've taken one have you taken two yet?" etc. She has to be the last one with any food left. She will save her snack so she can have it after everyone else has already eaten theirs. I think this is somehow related to her food hoarding issues but I wonder about the why and I can't get anything from her about it. Today she realized someone ate her snack that she had been hoarding and she cried and cried. All I could get from her was that she was sad that someone ate it and that she wanted it right then. She would not have wanted it except that her sister was eating the same thing.

 

She hides the remote control so no one else can use it and really needs to be the one holding it while watching TV. She counts the steps it takes her to do stuff, "My shower is a 7, get in, get wet, wash my hair, rinse it off, wash my body, rinse it off, get out". I have a feeling there is a lot more of that going on inside her head that I don't know about.

 

The more I learn about it, the more I think the basis for all the sibling rivalry at our house is based in OCD.

 

Susan

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My son has had the compulsion to urinate over and over as soon as he comes out of the bathroom. We tested for urinary infections and all were negative. This summer we experienced the encopresis which is a soiling issue. It was the worst symptom yet for us. He would get backed up and then use his fingers to help it out. It became a compulsion. We had tests run and the BM was not any other problems like c dif. but behavioral. I was finding it everywhere. In registers, in the hampers, showers, door handles, switches, walls, dressers underpants. Luckily he has improved now and is regular wih the help of mirolax. He has had chewing compulsions on his shirts and sleeves, bottom picking through his pants over and over, or rubbing his bottom back and forth across the chairs, walking on his curled under toes or jumping on curled toes, cracking his knuckles, cracking his fingers against his face, his back, pressing his fingers against tables, desks and counters, the constant wanting of new toys and happy meals and fast food has been a battle since age three (I want... and when he ges it he wants ...), nose picking, repeating words, only eating certain foods and avoiding other foods, obsessions over people and likes, showers over and over, obsessions over jerseys, obsessions over movies, obsessions over books in a series, all the lights on in a room at a certain time, mental stuck OCD just not getting off of a subject or idea and discussing it over and over... I am sure there are more. He lives in constant anxiety over something. He also always wants the last piece of food or the biggest piece or the most in his cup an will always compare his to others.

 

Michele

Interesting information on the Parkinson's and the PANDAS children needing to go (or saying they do) right after coming out. It happens to me very frequently, and worse during exacerbations, that I will leave the restroom/bathroom and 5 or 10 or 20 seconds later the rest is dribbling down my legs. Of course the kids wanting to go right back could have other reasons (so they can wash their hands again, if they have that compulsion), but could it also be they are in a similar situation to me, but perhaps with just a touch more control/awareness than me?
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Anyone do "refusal to blow nose?" That's one in my house -

 

My son does, but I thought that was pretty normal for a six year old?

 

However, I also thought it was normal for a six year old to refuse to eat any food that is "broken". Now I'm thinking he probably should have stopped worrying about that a couple of years ago? Example - a bowl of cheez-its, he will actually go through and pick out any with broken off corners or cracks in them and throw them away. Also - I gave him a pop tart the other day that had a small hole in the back - he freaked out on me like I'd handed him moldy food :)

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