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Yeast die off reaction or something else?


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My son is 6 days in to his month of Azith 250mg/day. My husband thought he noticed a decrease in tics yesterday, but I thought he was about the same. What is different, though is that we've had a terrible couple of days behavior-wise. He is angry, moody, irritable, foot-stomping, irrational, etc. All behaviors that we've seen from him before, but not this bad in a while. Since starting the Azith I have also been giving him probiotics, usually one Florastor and one Culturelle per day.

 

Could this be yeast die-off? I don't know if he had any overgrowth of yeast prior to this. He has never had any significant stomach issues, other than the fact that he has a tendency to throw up in the middle of the night if he's eaten too much junk food during the day (movie theater popcorn is especially bad). I'm really careful with what he eats as he's almost phobic-ly picky, but in the event of a birthday party, cookout, etc at someone's house where I can't monitor too closely, he'll eat too much chips, cake, etc and then wake up at 2am and yarf.

 

I was telling myself that I might have to give it the full month to see results from the azith, but I wasn't expecting him to get worse... :-(

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I don't know what to say about the yeast issues- we have not used any of those products at this point.

 

What I can say is, definately give it a month on zithromax before you make any judgement on whether it is working.

 

The other thing is, my dd seems to react even if someone in the class has strep. She has, about 3 times, had an increase in symptoms, especially mood related, while on zith- only to find out a day or two later that a classmate or friend has been diagnosed with strep. These flare ups seem to be fairly limited.

 

Hang in there, I have tried (although it is so hard) to look at weekly trends, rather than a few days...

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I also noticed that my son got better for about 5 days on azith, then suddenly worse (and also very tired) for several days, then better again. I panicked (here, publicly... if you scroll down you'll see my post, "better, then worse, zith wearing off?"), then decided that on day 5 he'd been exposed to something on a playdate. It took a few days to get back to the initial improvement. I'm also trying not to learn not to freak out over a bad day, but to look at the big picture.

 

Good luck, hang in there...

Was it you who recently had an appt with Dr. Latimer where she said she wanted to rule out lupus or other autoimmune problems too?

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Hi monarchcat,

 

It could be yeast overgrowth. Yeast can certainly cause those types of behaviors. Azith and other antobiotics did that to my daughter. You did not mention an antifungal so I'm not sure there would be die-off unless he is taking something for the yeast that you did not mention. It could also be symptoms from the PANDAS. Mood dysregulation, rages, irritability, and irrational behavior can all be symptoms of PANDAS. He may also be reacting to the probiotics. Did you layer them on slowly and carefully so you can see any changes in behavior? The only probiotic my daughter can take is Bifido Factor. Florastor, Culturelle, and all the others really activate her.

 

Nancy

 

My son is 6 days in to his month of Azith 250mg/day. My husband thought he noticed a decrease in tics yesterday, but I thought he was about the same. What is different, though is that we've had a terrible couple of days behavior-wise. He is angry, moody, irritable, foot-stomping, irrational, etc. All behaviors that we've seen from him before, but not this bad in a while. Since starting the Azith I have also been giving him probiotics, usually one Florastor and one Culturelle per day.

 

Could this be yeast die-off? I don't know if he had any overgrowth of yeast prior to this. He has never had any significant stomach issues, other than the fact that he has a tendency to throw up in the middle of the night if he's eaten too much junk food during the day (movie theater popcorn is especially bad). I'm really careful with what he eats as he's almost phobic-ly picky, but in the event of a birthday party, cookout, etc at someone's house where I can't monitor too closely, he'll eat too much chips, cake, etc and then wake up at 2am and yarf.

 

I was telling myself that I might have to give it the full month to see results from the azith, but I wasn't expecting him to get worse... :-(

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I guess I thought the probiotics could cause yeast die-off? Is it just antifungals that will do that?

 

I'm interested to know why probiotics cause your daughter to react? Do you know why the one that she does take is different? What do you mean by "activate her"?

 

And, no, I didn't really start him off slowly on the probiotics. He has taken Culturelle in the past when he's been on antibiotics for an ear infection, strep, etc so I thought I'd just start him out on a pretty strong dose to ward off any tummy/yeast issues caused by the abx. I probably should have started him off slower, but I think I was just so eager to get good stuff into him. LOL

 

Hi monarchcat,

 

It could be yeast overgrowth. Yeast can certainly cause those types of behaviors. Azith and other antobiotics did that to my daughter. You did not mention an antifungal so I'm not sure there would be die-off unless he is taking something for the yeast that you did not mention. It could also be symptoms from the PANDAS. Mood dysregulation, rages, irritability, and irrational behavior can all be symptoms of PANDAS. He may also be reacting to the probiotics. Did you layer them on slowly and carefully so you can see any changes in behavior? The only probiotic my daughter can take is Bifido Factor. Florastor, Culturelle, and all the others really activate her.

 

Nancy

 

My son is 6 days in to his month of Azith 250mg/day. My husband thought he noticed a decrease in tics yesterday, but I thought he was about the same. What is different, though is that we've had a terrible couple of days behavior-wise. He is angry, moody, irritable, foot-stomping, irrational, etc. All behaviors that we've seen from him before, but not this bad in a while. Since starting the Azith I have also been giving him probiotics, usually one Florastor and one Culturelle per day.

 

Could this be yeast die-off? I don't know if he had any overgrowth of yeast prior to this. He has never had any significant stomach issues, other than the fact that he has a tendency to throw up in the middle of the night if he's eaten too much junk food during the day (movie theater popcorn is especially bad). I'm really careful with what he eats as he's almost phobic-ly picky, but in the event of a birthday party, cookout, etc at someone's house where I can't monitor too closely, he'll eat too much chips, cake, etc and then wake up at 2am and yarf.

 

I was telling myself that I might have to give it the full month to see results from the azith, but I wasn't expecting him to get worse... :-(

 

Was it you who recently had an appt with Dr. Latimer where she said she wanted to rule out lupus or other autoimmune problems too?

 

No, that wasn't me. I have a pediatrician who admittedly doesn't know anything about PANDAS but was willing to prescribe antibiotics based on the Cunningham results.

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I guess probiotics can cause dye-off though I have never seen it cause the kind of dye-off that antifungals do. I don't honestly know why probiotics do that to her -- when I say activate, I mean cause hyperacticity, irritability, mood dyregulation, etc. But, many supplements do that to her. She's really very sensitive to supplements and medication. The one she does take -- bifido factor -- is extremely gentle and is usually given to babies. If you have given Culterelle in the past and he is okay with that, then that should be fine. Whenever I start my daughter on a new supplement I do it very slowly and never layer it with anything else new otherwise I won't know what's working and what's not.

 

Nancy

 

I guess I thought the probiotics could cause yeast die-off? Is it just antifungals that will do that?

 

I'm interested to know why probiotics cause your daughter to react? Do you know why the one that she does take is different? What do you mean by "activate her"?

 

And, no, I didn't really start him off slowly on the probiotics. He has taken Culturelle in the past when he's been on antibiotics for an ear infection, strep, etc so I thought I'd just start him out on a pretty strong dose to ward off any tummy/yeast issues caused by the abx. I probably should have started him off slower, but I think I was just so eager to get good stuff into him. LOL

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I would suspect that you are seeing 'saw tooth' like improvement in your son as the antibiotic takes effect. Its my understanding that Azithro also helps with the swelling in the brain and maybe why you are seeing a temporary increase in mood liability like you would with IVIG.

 

 

My son has been on Azithro for a month and he is almost completely symptomless except for when he is tired. Initially, we were only prescribed a 5 day course of antibiotics.... saw improvement but as soon as the prescription ended his symptoms increased within 48 hours. Its taken a GOOD four weeks of antibiotics and 5 day steroid burst to get where we are today. I think you'll have similar results, it just takes time.

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We definitely had a 'saw tooth' response in the last month........ but, our son had a break in antibiotics 'increase in symptoms' two times for several days and saw a huge improvement after 5 day steroid burst. I was so disappointed when I the symptoms started to increase after steroids wore off. Just now, I'm gaining confidence that its actually working and its been 34 consecutive days of antibiotics.

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I think that was my post. Meg has high ANA's. We tested her last year for Lupus, but everything was negative. Now, between the high ANA's, GI issues (ulcers), everyone we meet with seems concerned about something in addition to PANDAS. Of course, this may all be just related to PANDAS, or even over-concern, but we are going to run additional tests - assuming I can get Meg to give blood a few more times!!! I'm going to start a new thread about this, as I'd love to know if our experience is unique, so I can have some perspective. Susan (Meg's Mom)

 

I also noticed that my son got better for about 5 days on azith, then suddenly worse (and also very tired) for several days, then better again. I panicked (here, publicly... if you scroll down you'll see my post, "better, then worse, zith wearing off?"), then decided that on day 5 he'd been exposed to something on a playdate. It took a few days to get back to the initial improvement. I'm also trying not to learn not to freak out over a bad day, but to look at the big picture.

 

Good luck, hang in there...

Was it you who recently had an appt with Dr. Latimer where she said she wanted to rule out lupus or other autoimmune problems too?

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My son is 6 days in to his month of Azith 250mg/day. My husband thought he noticed a decrease in tics yesterday, but I thought he was about the same. What is different, though is that we've had a terrible couple of days behavior-wise. He is angry, moody, irritable, foot-stomping, irrational, etc. All behaviors that we've seen from him before, but not this bad in a while. Since starting the Azith I have also been giving him probiotics, usually one Florastor and one Culturelle per day.

 

Could this be yeast die-off? I don't know if he had any overgrowth of yeast prior to this. He has never had any significant stomach issues, other than the fact that he has a tendency to throw up in the middle of the night if he's eaten too much junk food during the day (movie theater popcorn is especially bad). I'm really careful with what he eats as he's almost phobic-ly picky, but in the event of a birthday party, cookout, etc at someone's house where I can't monitor too closely, he'll eat too much chips, cake, etc and then wake up at 2am and yarf.

 

I was telling myself that I might have to give it the full month to see results from the azith, but I wasn't expecting him to get worse... :-(

 

 

I had a similar thing happen when we switched to azith. In fact I remember asking the doc if she thought we could have a yeast overgrowth because of the behaviors. She wasn't inclined to think so. Things got better, but our son's is a "he's had undx'd PANDAS forever", and his behavior has been up and down again. Doing IVIG with dr. K. Waiting to hear the date. His comment to us was that it is hard to predict how these difficult cases will turn out with IVIG. We're praying.

 

Hang in there with the azith.

 

Dawn

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Hi Dawn:

 

I am wondering what Dr. K classifies as "difficult cases?" Did he tell you if he meant rages or chorea movements or tics or OCD? Just curious??

 

Elizabeth

 

Elizabeth,

 

Our 10 1/2 yo son's case of PANDAS has been a journey to search for the missing puzzle piece. No explosive, night & day onset.

Just a lifetime of alphabet diagnoses and attempts to treat the problems, only to get nowhere. He was dx'd with PANDAS in 11/08. At that time he was presenting with rages/tantrums/destructive/aggressive behavior, separation anxiety, labile emotions OCD-more in the perseverative thinking (stuck),tics, some choreiform mvt in fingers, regressive behaviors, very high titers--a little bit of everything! Migraines started at 3 1/2, repleat with the vomiting. (We think strep, now.) With his birth to present medical history in hand (lots of infections that presented like strep, but never a culture. Evan probably blew half his medicine out his mouth!), and with the knowledge that we distinctly remember starting to have "issues" with him by 21 mo, we believe that the PANDAS thing started a long time ago. Four docs have said PANDAS. Because he has had it so long the saw-tooth patterns of waxing & waning have been as if you stacked one pattern on top of another-pretty soon you don't have a clear pattern. Evan's mycoplasma pneumoniae IgG was very high. Can't remember the last time he had an illness that could have been caused by this bug. Dr. K says that so many of the kids he checks with the rage/aggression/destructiveness have this elevated, too. Whew--so to take a stab at your question, I believe what makes this a difficult case is it's "chronic nature, and that we don't know how much is strictly PANDAS. Also, the steroid burst did not give us "Ta-Da!" results. Too short, too much of a jolt to begin, too abrupt stop. He had about 2 1/2 good days out of the 5. I think Latimer's prednisone schedule would have been more helpful in Evan's case. He is currently on 250mg azith/day and Risperdal 1mg 2x/day. Every psych drug we have tried has failed. (Penicillin, even injections ,wouldn't eradicate the strep.) Risperdal has worked the best, but not all that well. About as well as Dr. K said it would. His CaM was 184%, but this was with him on azith. OK, a long answer to a short question. Fire away with more questions. There are alot of "holes" in the hx I just gave.

 

Dawn

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Hi Dawn:

 

My heart definitely goes out to you.... you have had a long journey. I am so happy you have found Dr. K and are trying IVIG. Just to let you know, the steroid burst was helpful to our son, but not dramatically so helpful like it was for so many other people. And we are seeing healing with the IVIG. I just want to give you some hope on that note!!!!

 

Elizabeth

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