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Too much of a good thing becomes bad?


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Hello,

 

I have been up to here with work and my daughter's condition. Half the time, I go to bed exhausted and discouraged. So, I haven't really had the time to post.

 

Anyway, my kid was fine for some time but her tics have started to increase. She has started her hand jerks and leg jerks again. I've tried so many things and I thought I was on to something but now, I am really discouraged.

 

Btw, I've started her on a new mag/calcium product from Kirkman's (currently, 400mg calcium and 252mg magnesium). Previously, she was on GNC's Child'sLife Calcium and Magnesium (252mg calcium and 240mg magnesium). Not sure if this has upset her balance somewhat - any thoughts on this? Doc says that she has to up her calcium levels as it is way too low for a 6 year old. After all, my kiddo is off all dairy, eggs, soy and gluten. She has also lost tremendous weight and it is really painful seeing her like this. I am currently giving her Probiotics as well. I even gave her Kirkman's Enzymes Complete for one meal but the tics seemed to increase, so I didn't have the courage to continue.

 

With regard to diet, I've basically been giving her rice-based products and my doc says that she could now be allergic to this. I mean, am I supposed to deprive her of rice as well? The question I have is 'How exactly am I going to know if she is allergic to rice?' I can't keep doing IgG tests, right? I'm hoping that there is a way to check allergy without busting a hole in my pocket. Btw, we don't really take quinoa, amaranth, sorghum or even millet in Singapore. Do any of these grains taste anything like rice. I know my 6-year old is going to flip if I take rice away from her diet. She's been so incredibly patient and I know that she is going to think that I'm nuts when I modify her diet some more. Sigh! What's a mum gonna do?

 

As usual, whenever my throbbing mind explodes, I think of two sources of relief - GOD and Latitudes ...

 

 

Shy

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Hi shy,

 

My son's tics get worse when I change brands of vit. so this could be a problem. He also ticced real bad, almost worse when he was on all rice too. Do you think the gluten or the dairy is the worse offender? I have noticed it was easier for us to do the gluten free when he was able to have dairy. I tried gluten free twice, once for a month with egg, dairy and wheat gone. He was so bad tic wise. When we tried again I only took the wheat/gluten out and he was fine. I think for him it was way too much rice, between the milk, cereal, bread, and pasta.

 

Good luck,

CP

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Shy,

 

The new cal mag supp has much more cal than mag. Calcium competes with magnesium. Try increasing magnesium (epsom salt baths, for example) and foods naturally high in magnesium (nuts). I agree that cal supps are important if the diet is lacking in cal. We did that when we were wheat, corn, dairy and soy free. After two years my son can finally eat dairy in moderation so we phased out the cal supps and just use the diet for calcium now. We are careful not to add too much calcium (it is fortified in so many things like orange juice). We do give daily magnesium still. Was your daughter overweight to begin with?

How are you with sugar intake? Is it moderate or high? Sometimes that hurts absorption.

 

On the issue of rice allergy-- that is a long shot. I read a lot about that it it takes years to develop. She could be getting hidden gluten, though. Are you feeding her enriched rice? The process of enriching it uses gluten to bind the vitamin to the rice grain. Is she in school? Has she been recently exposed to gluten in art class? Paper Mache? Clay dough?, etc....

 

Is she cheating when you are not aware? My son has cheated a handful of times this year. Luckily his leaky gut has healed and we didn't see a spike in tics. But in the beginning we did see wax ons.

 

Before eliminating rice I would just go to the cabinet and read the labels. Maybe you should do a little research on the brand names and how they are processed. (Grown near wheat fields? Processed on same equipment as wheat?) This may help you sort things out. My son has been diagnosed as celiac and we learned the hard way that we had to be very careful with cross contamination.

 

I also agree that some supplements are problematic and need to be changed up until a balance is found. My hunch is for you to look at the rice products first, though-- just based on my own experience.

 

Best of luck.

 

Caryn

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Dear CP & Caryn,

 

Sorry - couldn't reply earlier as I have been out of the country.

 

Thank you for your replies. They have made me think really hard about what is going into my daughter's mouth.

 

Just an update - kiddo is better now. I still haven't confirmed the trigger but I think it could be Lundberg's chips (Sea Salt) / anchovies / carrot. Caryn, I have taken your advice and I have up-ped the magnesium balance. I'm currently giving her an additional pill and it seems to be helping somewhat. Is there any other way to get magnesium into her aside from the Epsom Salts soak and the nuts? CP, you're right about the rice as well. I was getting way too much of the stuff into her because I had practically eliminated everything from her diet and the only replacement that came to my mind was rice. Plain silly of me! So now, I've added amaranth/rice pasta, buckwheat pasta and quinoa flour into the regimen and I think it is better now.

 

Btw, any idea about how much magnesium and calcium is needed for a 6 year old who weighs in at 17kg? She is losing weight and this worries me. Since dairy, eggs, gluten, soy, chicken and citrus are out, I'm really not sure how I can get anything of nutritional value into her. I'm also wondering whether I can reintroduce chicken into her diet. According to the IgG allergy test, she is moderately allergic to it (Level 3, I think). Chicken is like our staple and chicken nuggets is really what she loves. Sigh!

 

I believe that there's definitely light at the end of the tunnel. Now, if only I can see it a little faster ....

 

 

Shy

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Do you give the magnesium with the calcium? My 8 year old son has been in a big time neck jerking period and we have just started with magnesium supplements. Before, we were able to work with the tics by really monitoring his food (no yucky stuff, colors, flavors, etc) However, over the past several weeks, we have seen an increase in his tics particularly the head jerks. Also, he started with some back bending and lots of finger stretching. It seems that he is always moving. So, we started with the magnesium. He has been on it for about 2 weeks and I have not seen any improvements. He is on a multi, calcium and now on 125 mg of magnesium. Should I give the mag with the multi and calcium? Anybody with suggestions, please help. Tonight he asked me if he could have any medicine to help his neck because it hurts. We do the epsom salts baths though not religiously. I am so down, depressed, and upset over all of this. I don't know what to do to help him. Any advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated...please.

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san70,

 

Have you tried the magnesium creme from Kirkman? I found that helpful for neck tics. Apply the creme to the neck area.

 

Also, you may want to consider chirop to realign the neck. Acupuncture can also reduce neck tic and pain. If you son is afraid of the needles. You can ask for the seed stickers instead of the needles. Craniosacral can also be very helpful and it is the least invasive therapy.

 

If it is really painful. You may want to give him some pain reliever in the meantime.

 

Hope the neck tic wean soon.

 

Pat

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Hi there!

 

I wanted to share some things that I thought might help you. My son Daniel has had tics since he was 3. He is now 8 and about 56 pounds. Through a lot of research and prayer we have discovered his triggers which are food chemicals (MSG, food dyes, and high fructose corn syrup) .

 

I had put together my theory as to what was ultimately going on with him and why I thought Daniel was reacting with these food chemicals a while back. Here is the link http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?...mp;hl=sulfation and also some follow up links to this post http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?...Carolyn+N\ and also http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?...hl=Carolyn%5C.N .

 

Anyhow, a while back I started Daniel on N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine (NAC), per a Naturopathic doctors recommendation, and it has been great for us. The NAC helps his liver process out those chemicals that his body cannot do on its own so easily. So ultimately it helps control his tics to a point. But it is not the whole picture, by any means, but a big part of it. I also have Daniel on Bonnie Grimaldi's TS-Plus which is designed for people with Tourettes.

 

I don't know if you realize this but magnesium, Daniel's body responds best to magnesium taurate, is needed in so many functions of our body. So it is very easy to drain the body including when we eat chemical foods, foods we are allergic to, and when we get stressed or excited. What I have found is Daniel's body must use a lot of magnesium to help get rid of these foods his body does not tolerate well. So when he has had too much of the bad stuff I think his body gets low on magnesium and it sets his body up for more tics and anxiety too that seems to come along with it.

 

It was interesting that prior to him going on the TS-Plus and additional magnesium taurate supplement, two years ago, he would grind his teeth horrible at night. After he was on the magnesium for the first couple months all this came to an end.

 

One thing I learned and I have not followed through on any reading of this is over 80% of people who are sensitive to chemical foods has a chromium deficiency. What this means I really do not know but it is something I want ot explore.

 

The same Naturopathic doctor, who recommeneded the NAC, also told me what to do for Daniel when his tics really get going. All I can say is it has worked really, really well for us. I don't know what conditions would not allow a person to do this so I would just ask you run it by your doctor first. But my Naturopathic doctor told me to give Daniel 150 mg's of B6 for 3 to 4 days (I typically only do 100 mg's). I divided it up during the day in smaller doses and I even woke him up at midnight to give to him. His tics and anxiety always goes down. It is really amazing. Please note that in calculating how much B6 to give him I had to consider how much B6 he was getting in his multi-vitamin so I would empty out some of the B6 in the capsules to make sure he was not getting over the 100 mgs. After the three to four days I was to go back to my normal dose of just over 50 mg's a day.

 

The other thing I do for him when his tics are elevated for him is give him 10,000 mg's of Glycine for about 5 days. Glycine is an amino acid (again broken down throughout the day and even at midnight). Glycine helps the neurotransmitters run more smooth. After about five days I go back to the normal dose of 4600 mg's a day. The combination of the glycine and B6 has been just been an answer to prayer. But I certainly would run this by a doctor because I don't know what conditions would keep someone from doing this. But the long and short of it is it greatly helps reduce his tics. There are things he probably did not share with me regarding the side effects because he knew Daniel could handle it. He did tell me with the B6 with that high of a dosage 150 mg's it was a possibility of Daniel getting neuropathy in his hands in feet. He said it would be temporary if it happened. It did not happen. But again it is something to be aware of.

 

My doctor also told me to give Daniel at least 50 mg's of B6 immediately if he comes in contact with MSG (obviously I would have to calculate how much he already had for the day to make sure he did not go over 150 mg's). He explained to me this is what he does for his patients who get MSG headaches. He said the B6 pushes out the effects of the MSG free glutamate attack.

 

To recap this is what Daniel is currently taking. I am completely aware with a growing boy, again he is 8 and approaching quickly the peak of tics which is around 10, I may have to change this again in the near future. Daniel again is about 56 pounds.

 

I have listed where I purchase these items but I am sure you can get them from many different sources on the Internet and just at other retail stores.

 

He takes 1/2 of these supplements in the morning and the other 1/2 at night. Also note the there may be some of these supplements that certain people with certain health concerns should not take. For example the Acetyl-Cystiene can be hard on some peoples body, for example someone with kidney issues or diabetics, so you want to do your research and talk to your doctors.*************

 

* Bonnie Grimaldi's TS-Plus (12 a day (I order these from her from this website http://www.bonniegr.com/ . You have to either call her, e-mail or fax her the order. She is also a very helpful lady).

* additional Magnesium Taurate 250 mg a day. (I buy the brand Cardiovascular Research from the Vitamin Shoppe)

* Glycine 4600 mg a day (I buy the brand Carlson from the Vitamin Shoppe). I mix this in the lemonade brand "Simply Lemonade". It just takes a little to disguise the taste and get it down.

* additional 1000 mg of vitamin C a day (I buy American Health Non Acidic with citrus bioflavonoids from the Vitamin Shoppe).

*Omega 3 (Nordic Naturals Junior I buy at the Vitamin Shoppe)

* Phosphatidylserine (PS-100) 1 capsule 2 x a day (this one my Naturopathic doctor really thinks is beneficial to the brain. He said he has seen tremendous results for all kinds of things with brain function. But it is not an overnight result it takes, I believe up to two months to build in the system. Also it is rather $$$$$. I read it also helps counteract the side effects of MSG to a point). (I buy this through Sprouts and I use a brand called MRM)

* pro-biotic called MindLinx (it also helps with processing gluten and getting the gut healthy). (You can purchase it through this website in either capsules or powder http://www.rockwellnutrition.com/HLC-MindL...S_p_0-1458.html )

*GABA for anxiety 1200 mg's a day. (I buy it through my GABA through my Natuopathic Doctor)

*NAC (N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine) 600 mg's a day (I use to give him 1200 mg's a day). Make sure you take high levels of vitamin C while on this product. From what I read it will help reduce the risk of developing kidney stones. (I buy the Vitamin Shoppe brand generic version through their store)

*Apple Cider Vinegar capsules 2 x a day (I buy Natural Factors at Sprouts but I am sure you can buy on the Internet)

*Additonal B6 on a an needed basis. But the TS-Plus has what he needs in it and as long as things are going well I do not need to supplement in any extra. (I buy my B6 in 50 mg' amounts from Vitamin Shoppe and I buy their brand)

 

So with all this said you can tell I have one very expensive son. We spend at least $150 or more a month on vitamins. I also have a boy who is SICK of vitamins. Who can blame him. But he is starting to understand what it means it if does not take them. The good thing is he swallows the pills so if he is just does it he can get it over with in about 3 minutes.

 

I am truly trying to figure out where I can cut back on some of these supplements. The problem is Daniel's body just does not detoxifiy correctly. He needs all these things to help the process along. It is very frustrating but it is what it is and we just have to accept it.

 

I have tried joining a vitamin co-op where you can get these vitamins a lot less expensive. I have been unsuccessful but would love to get involved in one if anyone knows of one that is accepting new people.

 

I also save money when the Vitamin Shoppe does there semi-annual sale on their generic brand of vitamins. I think it is in April and September it is buy one get one 1/2 off. Also I have found their website to have better sale prices then the store for some reason.

 

I am starting to explore other options for Daniel. I am considering taking him to an Environmental Doctor who understands more the bodies reaction to these chemical foods. I really want to see if there is a way to rebuild his body back stronger so we can do away with at least some of these supplements. What I have read is other then supplements the best thing you can do is avoid those things that are bothering your system, in Daniel's case all the food dyes, MSG, and high fructose corn syrup, to allow the enzymes to rebuild without getting damaged again. It can take months and months to rebuild it even to a minimum.

 

I know this is so long but it has been quite a bit of time since I posted and I have found out so much. I hope it helps someone understand what is going on with them or their child.

 

God Bless,

 

Carolyn

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Carolyn,

Thanks so much for all of the information. It is really helpful. I thought I had figured out my son's triggers, or at least some of them, but when he goes through a period of waxing, I wonder what else could possibly be going on? Sometimes I feel like I am crazy and obsessive when I scrutinize everything that has gone into his mouth. It's so hard when he is at school and he is surrounded by so much of the "forbidden foods." You really seem to have done quite a bit of research and I am again so thankful for you and everyone on this forum. As I think back, my son exhibited early signs of tics when he was very little. So, I must be patient and keep trying and researching!

 

San

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Pat,

 

Did your son find relief pretty quickly from the cream? Today, my son did not complain about his neck and he did take an epsom salt bath tonight. My son has been on the mag taurate, only 125 mg, for about 2 weeks.

Another question, for the past couple of days, he has complained about his stomach hurting. He did not eat much lunch in school for the past 2 days. I am wondering if it could be the taurate upsetting his stomach. Has anyone had any experience with this? Will his body adapt to the mag over time, or is this a sign that his body isn't tolerating the mag?

 

San

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Carolyn,

Thanks so much for all of the information. It is really helpful. I thought I had figured out my son's triggers, or at least some of them, but when he goes through a period of waxing, I wonder what else could possibly be going on? Sometimes I feel like I am crazy and obsessive when I scrutinize everything that has gone into his mouth. It's so hard when he is at school and he is surrounded by so much of the "forbidden foods." You really seem to have done quite a bit of research and I am again so thankful for you and everyone on this forum. As I think back, my son exhibited early signs of tics when he was very little. So, I must be patient and keep trying and researching!

 

San

Yes, Carolyn is a wonderful source of information! We actually take our kids to the same naturopath(she referred us to him). The naturopath has us giving our son the PS 100(we just started this a few weeks ago), the glycine at 4600 mg a day, Vitamin C(I give 750 mg a day), and he has us giving him quercetin for seasonal allergies. We also have our son on a supplement from Neuroscience that's called Kavinace which has taurine and a small amount of B6 in it along with another amino acid for anxiety issues. I do not give magnesium, other than a bath here and there b/c I never saw it help in the past.

I know how you feel about being patient and sometimes I feel like giving up. But, I always end up back here or reading books just trying to get a clue as to what I'm missing.

Have you tried cutting salycilates from his diet? There's a lot of research on here about how some people may be sensitive to them and it couldn't hurt to cut them out for a few weeks since it's mostly fruits. To be honest about the diet stuff; I tried cutting out preservatives, colors, nitrates, MSG, etc and I didn't see my son wane for months even when I did this. So, I thought that maybe food sensitivity wasn't his problem and I started allowing some nitrated pepperoni, some Sprite once or twice a week, etc(we never did MSG or artificial colors anyway b/c I was a pretty healthy person anyway in how I fed the family), and then he started waning!!! AARRRGGHHH!!! I was so frustrated. Why would he wane when I'm allowing cruddy food in his diet? I still don't have the answers and I still keep a food journal but I've realized that he tics more when he's stressed(both good and bad stress) and that he's worse in the spring(March through early June) so I'm guessing he has a histamine problem as he's always more drippy and snotty with seasonal allergies right now.

For the record, my son started ticcing the day after he turned 9 back in Nov. of 2007 so we've been at this for about a year and a half. He had already had an anxiety disorder and I know that this is part of the equation for getting control of his tics. He also started with OCD obsessive thoughts last spring which really increased his tics. Also, we've never gotten a true diagnosis for him and since he's not had any vocal tics I wonder if he'd get a TS diagnosis b/c he has co-morbid conditions like the OCD and anxiety. So, we just keep plugging along! My son is doing great, though, despite the tics and they really are minor now b/c of the supplements compared to how bad they were last spring!

 

Bonnie

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Bonnie,

I may try the salicyte thing next though I can't imagine life without fruit. Before I started all the diet changes, we were very healthy. I admit, though, I had no idea about how terrible colors were so we did consume them. When we make a change, it is for the entire family. Ultimately, we are healthier as a result of all of this. My son has some anxiety problems though it has not been diagnosed. It always seems to take him a long time to settle down and go to sleep at night. That, in turn, makes him more tired the next day which I think for him makes the tics worse. It's this never ending, vicious cycle. All I want to do is help him. So, just as you said, here I am back reading! By the way, when your naturopath started you on all the supplements, was your son gradually introduced to everything? Has he experienced any side effect?

 

San

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ilovedog,

 

my son has environmental allergies too. how much qucertin are you giving your son (pls provide your son's age & weight)? i am giving my son elderberry extract because it boosts the immune system, antifungal and has qucertin, but i don't think the qucertin in the elderberry extreact is enough for allergies.

 

Thx!

 

Pat

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