Dark circles under eyes only during strep episodes?

[colleenrn]

A few weeks ago, before starting my 5 1/2 yo on Zithromax, besides the typical behaviors I see in him that tells me he has strep (hyperactivity, very emotional, easily crying/throwing fits) I noticed he had very dark circles under his eyes. After 5 days of Zithromax the dark circles were gone. We continued the Zith for 10 more days. Now that it has been a week with no antibiotics, he woke up this morning I realize that dark circles under the eyes can indicate food and/or environmental allergies, but has anyone experienced dark circles under their child's eyes directly related to a strep or PANDAS episode? I am gathering every bit of evidence I can to convince my doctor he has strep b/c I know his culture will be negative as it usually is.

Thanks! Colleen

[faith]

Colleen,

Does your son have tics? It is your daughter that is the PANDAS, correct? So you are watching the little one now? Why did he get zyth? How is your daughter doing now?

 

Faith

[faith]

delete

double

[colleenrn]

Faith,

Yes, my daughter has had PANDAS for at least 7 years. When my son who is almost 8 was 4 I started seeing signs of PANDAS, but after his tonsils and adenoids were removed b/c of severe sleep apea, things seemed better with him. He definitely gets emotional when he has strep, but no tics I have ever seen. My 5 year old has had me so suspicious for a year now b/c he has had strep and has acted extrememly labile when he has strep- just not the typical OCD and tics that were so clear cut with my daughter. it has me confused, but after he was throwing fit after fit, getting progressively worse (went on for a few months) I took him for a culutre and it was positive. Things greatly improved with antibiotics and August was a much better month. Fast forward to a few weeks ago when I saw the emotional stuff coming back, got a negative throat culture, talked doc into 15 days of Zith. He does get a throat clearing tic when he is at his worst. B/c it is hard to figure out with him if it is strep b/c he doesn't get the ocd/tics, I second guess myself and the worse he gets, THEN the throat tic starts. The throat clearing tic diasappeared after the Zith. Now it has returned, also returning is the dark circles. I am so confused. My gut says he has strep, but my gut also says the culture will be negative as it was a few weeks ago. I really think the dark circles is related to the strep and wonder if others see it in their children, so I can have one more piece of evidence that my child has strep even though we get neg. cultures.

Thanks, Colleen

[michele]

You say he doesn't get typical OCD but does he get fixated on certain things? Stuck on ideas or themes? Repetitive behaviors like urination urgency during the day, ? Walking on toes or sensory issues? My son get pale with strep. Yes I would imagine circles under the eyes whenever he is sick not just strep. Definately emotional liability with mood swings and anger. Write down all the symptoms and keep it in a journal with dates and illness. I hope you aren't dealing with PANDAS again.

 

Michele

Faith,

Yes, my daughter has had PANDAS for at least 7 years. When my son who is almost 8 was 4 I started seeing signs of PANDAS, but after his tonsils and adenoids were removed b/c of severe sleep apea, things seemed better with him. He definitely gets emotional when he has strep, but no tics I have ever seen. My 5 year old has had me so suspicious for a year now b/c he has had strep and has acted extrememly labile when he has strep- just not the typical OCD and tics that were so clear cut with my daughter. it has me confused, but after he was throwing fit after fit, getting progressively worse (went on for a few months) I took him for a culutre and it was positive. Things greatly improved with antibiotics and August was a much better month. Fast forward to a few weeks ago when I saw the emotional stuff coming back, got a negative throat culture, talked doc into 15 days of Zith. He does get a throat clearing tic when he is at his worst. B/c it is hard to figure out with him if it is strep b/c he doesn't get the ocd/tics, I second guess myself and the worse he gets, THEN the throat tic starts. The throat clearing tic diasappeared after the Zith. Now it has returned, also returning is the dark circles. I am so confused. My gut says he has strep, but my gut also says the culture will be negative as it was a few weeks ago. I really think the dark circles is related to the strep and wonder if others see it in their children, so I can have one more piece of evidence that my child has strep even though we get neg. cultures.

Thanks, Colleen

[colleenrn]

Michele,

Yes, he does get fixated on things, definitely. No sensory issues, walking on toes, repetetive behaviors, urinary frequency. He also looks pale right now, with the dark circles and he is not sick. I mean, he doesn't have a cold, fever, or act sick. That makes me more suspicious of strep.

[dut]

Hello

 

We saw an environmental dr today for the first time for our PANDAS dd.. he wanted to do an allergy test for strep.. it would seem you can be allergic to strep.. never really thought about it but knew that that is what the rash of scarlet fever is an allergic reaction, so maybe you can present with different allergic symptoms... baggy/dark eyes are classic allergy signs....

[dut]

Hello again.. my bad.. just looked up scarlet fever and my presumption that scarlet fever is allergy was wrong. Sorry.. it's caused by an exotoxin produced by the strep... makes the idea of allergy to strep even more interesting.

 

Has anyone else had a doctor mention strep allergy?

[Caryn]

Hey dut,

I think you are going to love this--

I did a little google search as the subject seem fascinating. Couldn't find anything at all but mayo clinic's general "congestion of the sinuses" theory.

Then I widened my criteria....

To include....

Are you ready?

Veterinary practice!

And I found something that pretty much agrees with the premise.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OyxGEbjY4...oogle.com/books

 

(page 446)

Specific Equine Vasculitic Syndromes

Equine purpura hemorrhagica (EPH) is believed to be an allergic response to streptococci or equine influenza virus. This vasculitic syndrome typically occurs 2-4 weeks after infection by streptococcus equi (strangles). Exposure of a previously sensitized horse to infected horses may precipitate EPH. Rarely EPH may follow infections with Strep zooepidemicus or influenza. Immune complexes containing IgA and a protein of strep equi have been demonstrated in the blood vessels of horses with EPH. Serum IgA titres to Strep equi are higher in horses with EPH, but titres of IgG are curiously decreased. The significance of these findings remains unclear because EPH is difficult to reproduce experimentally. Classical signs of EPH include mucosal petechiial haemorrhages and demarcated areas of oedema on the limbs, ventral abdomen, head, and trunk. Oedema of other tissues may cause dysphagia, dyspnoea, colic, lameness, or renal disease. Haematology generally reflects chronic inflammation. Moderate anaemia may develop due to fluid shifts or shortened erythrocyte lifespan. Tenative diagnosis of EPH is based on history and clinical signs. Leucocytoclastic venulitis in the dermis and supcutaneous tissue of a skin biopsy supports the diagnosis. Although most horses with EPH respond to therapy, some cases are refractory. Deaths are usually secondary to laminitis or septic complications.

Treatment

NSAIDS (to reduce inflammation)

2 weeks of penicillin even though infection has resolved ('Ideopathic vasculitis can be difficult to treat because the antigen stimulus remains undefined and may not be easily eliminated'

Any drug used at the time signs occur should be discontinued.

Underlying infection or neoplasia should be sought.

Corticosteriod use for the treatment of hypersensitivity vasculitis is controversial, however horses with EPH or idopathic vasculitis usually respond favorably to corticosteroids. Whether the main effect of the latter is anti-inflammatory or immunosuppressive is unknown.

Once oedema resolves corticosteriods can be reduced.

Prognosis depends on cause. With early aggressive therapy most horses recover from EPH within 4 weeks.

 

Okay, children are not horses, so read this and do with it what you wish. Found it interesting. Perhaps there is a human study somewhere?

[hopefulinsc]

Hi:

 

Yes, my daughter started in with this in June of this year. She is in her 2nd mild episode. Both times, we noticed very dark circles under her eyes (she still has them currently). I believe that there is a definite correlation with the dark circles. She also experienced stomach issues. She complained nearly every day about her stomach bothering her; however, it's not debilitating; just enough to make her mention it - perhaps 2 to 3 times a day. She has stopped complaining about her stomach for about 7 days or so. We went thru this last time she went into remission and at that time the dark circles went away. We are hoping that is the case again. I did mention the dark circles to the pediatrician. They said it could be allergies.......

 

By the way, she does seem to have a very mild vocal tic that if you didn't know her you wouldn't even notice. I asked her if she was doing it on my purpose - she said sometimes "yes" and sometimes "no". The only time we notice it is when we are doing homework or reading and it's not all the time.

 

 

Faith,

Yes, my daughter has had PANDAS for at least 7 years. When my son who is almost 8 was 4 I started seeing signs of PANDAS, but after his tonsils and adenoids were removed b/c of severe sleep apea, things seemed better with him. He definitely gets emotional when he has strep, but no tics I have ever seen. My 5 year old has had me so suspicious for a year now b/c he has had strep and has acted extrememly labile when he has strep- just not the typical OCD and tics that were so clear cut with my daughter. it has me confused, but after he was throwing fit after fit, getting progressively worse (went on for a few months) I took him for a culutre and it was positive. Things greatly improved with antibiotics and August was a much better month. Fast forward to a few weeks ago when I saw the emotional stuff coming back, got a negative throat culture, talked doc into 15 days of Zith. He does get a throat clearing tic when he is at his worst. B/c it is hard to figure out with him if it is strep b/c he doesn't get the ocd/tics, I second guess myself and the worse he gets, THEN the throat tic starts. The throat clearing tic diasappeared after the Zith. Now it has returned, also returning is the dark circles. I am so confused. My gut says he has strep, but my gut also says the culture will be negative as it was a few weeks ago. I really think the dark circles is related to the strep and wonder if others see it in their children, so I can have one more piece of evidence that my child has strep even though we get neg. cultures.

Thanks, Colleen

[dut]

Cheers for that Caryn.. interesting stuff.. I'll follow up with the env dr.. ask if he sees strep allergy oftenat all. Presume he must or he wouldn't suggest it as a possiblity. I didn't follow up at the time 'cos both children were playing up :-)

[JSCCMOM]

My son has always had dark circles under the eyes but it is worse at times then others. My daughter too. My son has TS and I have always been told dark circles are a sign of allergies. I find it interesting though that you get negative test results. My son recently had a high (104) fever for 4 days and the Dr. got a negative test result even though you could clearly see a white area in his throat. She said it must be some other kind of something and put him on an antibiotic. We had to get it made without colorings just for him since they trigger his TS. He has been struggling with his tics ever since. Think there's a connection? I'm curious...........

[lynsey]

My kids get dark circles under their eyes when they are sick, usually

with an upper respiratory infection. They've only had strep once in

their life and I'm sure they had dark circles then too, but they always get them

when they have a bad cold, or an ordinary sore throat, or the flu.

I looked up dark circles on some medical site on Google, you may be

interested to read:

 

http://www.parents.com/big-kids/health/col...er-eye-circles/

 

and this one from the Mayo Clinic:

 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dark-circ...er-eyes/AN00423

 

 

lynsey