Epsom salt bath

[kkver]

Can some one post what is the quantity of epsom salt needs to be used for the bath and any special instructions needed for this. Has any PANADAS kids parents used it when they are ticcing ?

[Chemar]

Hi kkver

 

2 cups of epsom salts in a tub of warm water. soak for 15-20 minutes.

makes one very sleepy so best done before bed.

[kkver]

Hi kkver

 

2 cups of epsom salts in a tub of warm water. soak for 15-20 minutes.

makes one very sleepy so best done before bed.

 

thanks Chemar , I searched through your old posts and found 2 cups. I used it for 2 days but it seems to spike his tics more so i stopped it today not sure what i saw it alst time also when ever u try to control it goes out of control. So today onward i went back to multivitamins and vitamin C and vegitables.Since his wheezing is gone i have stopped use of albutrol . It is steriod but had no choice. Is there some thing we use other then those to control asthma wheezing.

 

thanks agin and Mery Xmas.

 

kk

[Chemar]

hi kk

 

taking epsom salts baths doesnt substitute for the vitamins and other supplements...it is complimentary

 

I am wondering if your water may be high in chlorine? that can increase tics. I have honestly not heard of anyone increasing with epsom baths but all people are unique and your son may react to it?? maybe the sulfate?

 

have you checked www.nativeremedies.com for anything that naturally helps with asthma?

[kkver]

I gave him vitamins while giving him epsom baths. Last two days without the bath they seems to have slowed down so i can say it was epsom bath. It'sl ike you don't want to control them they will go away own there own. I will wait and watch. i guess that is the possible route along with vitamins.

[Sunshine]

This post has caught my attention. I am not able to spend much time on this site any more, but I wanted to add my two cents on this topic, as my son had a similar reaction to kk's son.

 

My son has had PANDAS for 3 years.......... and what a roller coaster those 3 years have been!

 

We tried my son on epsom salts for several months. It made him very itchy and it did not seem to make his tics better. I remember posting about it here over a year ago. At that time, we couln't explain why he had a different reaction than most children on this forum.

 

Since then we have had genetic testing done. The testing showed that he could not handle excess sulfur due to some mutations on his SNPs. Interestingly enough, my son used some DMSA (also sufur based), and his tics got much worse. We now realize that he can't have epsom salt baths or use DMSA chelation therapies.

 

I do want to stress to new readers that my son's reaction seems to be rare.... most children benefit greatly from a soak in epsom salts. However, kk, you're not losing your mind.... your son might not be able to handle sulfur either!

[kim]

Sunshine!

 

It's good to see you pop in. I have been looking forward to hearing from you and Giselle. I certainly understand the lack of ability to post much.

 

I'm going to throw a few things out here, don't expect you to comment in any depth, but anything that you have any knowledge of or any breif comment would be so appreciated.

 

I have saved to my files so many articles/ studies on sulfur metabolism. I will seach and save for hours, then I end up with so much info, it's hard to go back thru and put it in any context that might make sense to someone.

 

I'm wondering if the SNP is specific to any one sulfur group. I have a pretty good idea that my oldest son at least, has a mutation in EXT 1 or EXT2 which is required for the biosynthesis of heparan sulfate. I found this by researching on an unrelated condition that he has (or is it?). It's just a benign bony tumor. It looks like he has a second ankle bone. Scared me to death when he first pointed it out to me, but i was assured it was harmless. Well, it's quite hard to assure me of anything anymore.

 

I'm aware of Dr. Yasko's theory of problems with resulfating GaGs after strep infections which would fit my boys reactions to strep better than the autoimmunity problem. I don't believe that they are in the group that experiences a true autoimmune attack on the brain.

 

Recently we had a discussion on another thread about Parkinson's, restless leg syndrome etc. The sulfur involvement seems to be implicated in many of the things we discusse here including PST and an inability to handle phenols/artificial colors etc. Is any of this familiar to you? With this SNP was your son more vulnerable to the effects of thimerosal? sulfhydryl groups (thiols/merchapitan) are essential in clearance of thimerosal or mercury period, if I'm understanding correctly (which is assuming a lot! )

 

I'm hesitant to let my youngest son work with a therapist because I'm afraid that he is unable to physically handle some of the foods that he refuses to eat, possibly due to sulfur content. Are there foods that have been recommended that your son avoid or any specifically recommended in regards to the SNP?

 

Anyway it's great to hear from you again. If I remember right, the last time you posted, you were somewhere sunny. That reminds me, i just ran into some info today about elevated levels of alkaline phosphate (oldest son had high levels in last blood work) in relationship to vit D deficiency. Seems to me you mentioned low levels of D in your last post?

[Sunshine]

Hi Kim!

 

Wow.... your response triggered so many light bulbs for me... where do I start?

 

Perhaps what I found most interesting was that your son had a benign tumor. My son had a benign tumor the size of a golf ball when he was 2 1/2. It popped out suddenly, and he had it removed via surgery after an MRI and CAT scan showed no results. Of course, it slowly grew back as a flattened lump on his wrist. I had no idea that his tumor could be related to any of his current issues, and have therefore never asked his new doctor. It's food for thought... my next research project!

 

There are four CBS SNPs which can affect the methylation pathway. Too much sulfur puts strain on the CBS cycle. Also, sulfur is able to directly activate the stress/cortisol response which can lead to secondary responses in the body (eg: lower magnesium, & decreased serotonin, dopamine and GABA). Problems with CBS up regulation can be exacerbated by a high protein diet, B6 supplementation, excess sulfur, and elevated glucose. My son has only one specific CBS up regulation mutation. However, all three ACHY SNPs are mutated, which changes the methylation pathway towards transulfation. Also, he has all three VDR mutations which would lead to elevated glucose (therefore causing more CBS strain).

 

We do not limit sulfur foods, but we do not supplement with any sort of sulfur donors (eg: DMSA, glutathione, taurine, milk thistle, Epsom salt baths...). We also ensure that he has ammonia support as well as Molybdenum.

 

I am quite sure that toxins can inhibit the activity of PST enzymes, even without a genetic predisposition. If the molecules of sulfur are not being converted into beneficial chemicals, some could get stuck in the sulfite stage and cause toxicity. The conversion of sulfite (which is not good) into sulfate is affected by the SOUX SNP. A mutation there could thus lead to some problems with sulfur as well.

 

My son would have a harder time clearing any toxins from his body (due to thermerisol, environmental toxins, heavy metals, bacteria etc...) because of the mutations in his overall methylation pathway. His CBS mutation is only a piece of a much bigger puzzle. We are still trying to support and bypass all of his different mutations. His progress is REMARKABLE (did I bury the best news or what?! Horay for my little sweetie!!! ).

 

I have not read about Parkinson's or RLS, although I am curious now about sulfur's involvement in these conditions. I think RLS runs in the family, and definitely phenol intolerance is a biggie for us. I will look into that a bit more.

 

On a last note, I can only wish that we lived somewhere sunny. We're up in BC, Canada where it is cold and rainy right now. With all three VDR mutations, my son would greatly benefit from a trip to a sunny location during the winter. Perhaps next year, after I win the lottery !

 

Cheers,

Sunshine

[Chemar]

Hi Sunshine

 

so good to see you and a big thanks to you, and to you Kim, for shedding light on why some may not do well with epsom baths..........I had a feeling it may be the sulfate rather than the magnesium, and now you have confirmed that re sulfur intolerance

 

another reason why we always stress that the treatment has to be tailored to the individual and to the *root cause of the tics*, because there are SO many variables and no "one size fits all in this".

[kim]

Sunshine,

 

I just can't thank you enough for that wonderful reply.

 

Do you remember if your sons tumor was called an osteochondroma?

 

It's so wonderful to read that he's doing so well. I think your post brought some very good points to light here. I know we have at least a few parents who have had testing that showed very high levels of tauine. While mag taurate works well for many, it's always good to get a hold of more pieces to the puzzle. I have also noticed/suspected that my boys aren't able to handle high amts of vit B.

 

My greatest hope is that every person/parent can find these answers. It breaks my heart to think that there are some who feel that

"vitamins" didn't work for their child.

 

There are SO many more comments/questions that i would love to ask you, but i'm brushing up on the CBS mutation and a few other things that you reminded me of. I'm going to wait until I can ask you my most important specific questions, so i don't take up too much of your time!

 

Again, thanks from the bottom of my heart!

 

 

**for anyone who wants to know a little more about what were talking about here, thought i'd include these

 

http://www.ch3nutrigenomics.com/phpBB2/vie...1b7861344cbb61e

 

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-140490456.html

[bmom]

Sunshine- So great to hear that your son is doing wonderful. I know that you have been on the website awhile and many know your story, but I was wondering if you could do a quick run down of treatments, age of your son, progression and things that have been most beneficial to your son. Thank you so much. By the way to you all, my husband has mild motor tics and my son began this year. My husband had a tumor as you described come out this year as well. Seems like this is related. I am trying to soak up what you are all talking about related to the sulfur.

[LisaM]

Hi Kim and all who understand this,

 

Kim, a while ago i read one of your posts talking about this stuff and found it very interesting especially since I believe you reported a cause to be the use of tylenol and motrin during strep?? Is that or something like that right? Your link above really helped me to understand what you are talking about but what are the signs to even suspect an issue? I just started my son on a multivitamin high in B's and I give him extra magnesium once in a while just to see if it helps him get to sleep better (no issues with tics etc. with him but do have with older sister) just trying to be comprehensive with the younger sibling. I have to say that he has not been himself lately, waking up earlier, not napping as long, very irritable. He is 2 and certainly could be normal. What else do you look for? How did you and sunshine end up getting genetic testing?

[kim]

bmom,

 

3 reports of these tumors does seem a little much to dismiss as coincidence doesn't it? Was removal recommended? Is your husbands located at the end of a long bone?

 

Lisa M,

 

I have not had the genetic testing done. This page gives some info on it. My impression is that there is the testing at the price shown and then there's one that gives Dr. Amy's interpretation and recommendations for supplements? Maybe Sunshine can comment on this. She does have a physician who is guiding her with the Yasko protocol, so she may not have had to order on her own. That was one of the questions that i wanted to ask her too, but was hoping to find as much as possible on my own. In regards to your 2 year old, you will probably find the talk given by Dr. DeMio interesting. I don't think the amt of vit B that would be found in a childrens multi would be enough to cause problems that may be seen, if a child is not able to handle larger amts. In the maximum dose of Bontech vits, for a 90 lb person or over, you would be getting 100 mgs. This is 5000% of the daily recommended value. If you take 10 you are getting 50mgs at 2500%. This is for a child of 35 to 66 lbs. So it is a consideralbe amt. This might be very beneficial for some, but possibly not great for others. Without testing, careful observation is about the only thing that you have to go on.

 

I will try to post some more of the sulfur info as soon as i have a little more time. There is a lot that I don't understand either. I'm just sort of working through it myself. I'm going to try to get a little more organized with sharing some of this in the new year! Sunshine's post, just kind of had the effect of making the cork fly out of my bottle

 

http://www.holisticheal.com/store/product....=124&page=1

[bmom]

Kim- I am still trying to process the sulfer info and have not had time to read the posts you have included yet I thank you for that. I am on day 3 of switching my son to the Bontech as I had thought they were more comprehensive. I haven't seen an adverse reaction, but I only have him up to six and a combination of the Kids Calm that he has always done well on. Are you saying if they have a sulfer problem Bonnie's would not do well? I have had him take a B complex periodically with no problems so I figured he was ok, but Bonnie's has so much B's. What do you think? No increase yet- am I out of the woods?

[kim]

bmom,

 

I don't think we hit hyper problems with Bontech vits until I was giving my oldest son about 12 of them. This was approx 3 years ago, he just turned 15. He was a good sized boy 3 yrs ago, but i couldn't even begin to remember his weight.

 

I didn't start my youngest out on Bontech vits. I gave him individual vit B. He was noticably hyper, to the point that we laughted about it. He even knew that he couldn't stand still.

 

Since we can't go beyond a certain amt of vits with the boys (although i'm not certain they couldn't handle more now...it's more an issue of only being able to swallow so many capsules in 1 day, as we do probiotics extra this and that), i have seriously considered swithching to individual supplements. I'm certain that my youngest needs more biotin and vit A than he's getting with the reduced amt of Bontech. Problem is, they have done very well on them! My oldest likes epsom salt baths and does not seem to have adverse effects from it, so i'm puzzled there in regards to problems with sulfate. I guess if he has a conversion problem, and the epsom salt baths provide sulfur, not sulfate, maybe he is ok with that. Or it could be a matter of handling a certain amt, but having problems once you go beyond a certain point. Just don't know

 

Here are some excerpts from Dr. Amy's site. I hate to post the quotes, but the links don't work anymore. See what you make of it. The CBS mutation that Sunshine posted about, can give kids with high protein diets problems with ammonia levels too. I was so puzzled when my youngest son didn't show high levels with testing. It didn't occur to me until much later, that the reason he didn't have high ammonia was because his diet is very protein restricted. NO MEAT of any kind, NO EGGS, only the small amts that he would get in something like crackers, baked goods etc. Anyway, I'm going off in too many directions now! Bottom line, i think vit b and b 12 are essential for many of our kids, but conservative amts introduced slowly may be best. Individual reactions vary. The ups and downs with 2 kids with completly different reactions is part of the reason that i spend so much time at this!

 

 

 

Chronic bacterial infection and its effects on tryptophan breakdown are part of the reason why I suggest only low levels of P5P for individuals with chronic bacterial issues and CBS up regulations. P5P also helps to push the CBS reaction as well as to aid in the conversion of kynurenic to quinolinic The kynurenic that is generated via the breakdown of tryptophan by bacterial infection is calming; however P5P helps to convert it to quinolinic which is excitatory.

 

 

and

 

 

 

Kynurenate is part of the breakdown pathway for tryptophan. As the body breaks down tryptophan for this purpose it will also deplete serotonin. Lack of serotonin combined with streptococcal infection can lead to perseverative and OCD behaviors in addition to other effects.

and

 

 

 

In some cases I have not found that the use of high dose B6 or P5P is always helpful. It can actually cause more overstimulatory or OCD type behaviors. While kynurenic acid is calming for neurotransmitters, the product that kynurenines are converted to by B6 is quinolinic acid. Quinolinic acid is an excitotoxin. So if you have high kynurenine and add B6 you can generate quinolinic acid which acts as an excitotoxin and can aggravate the nervous system. Increased levels of quinolinic acid have been implicated in Alzheimer?s disease as well as with respect to excitotoxin damage of nerves.