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A bunch of conflicting emotions reading this article.

 

When my son had strep recently, I wasn't sure if I was more afraid of the infection flairing tics or of the antibiotic causing more gut problems.

 

If I considered PANDAS to be a problem for him, this article would upset me in regards to the struggles that parents have getting antibiotics.

 

Does anyone have any comments on the incidence of Rheumatic fever.

 

I believe Ronnas has commented on something to do with this and her son?

 

 

 

http://www.pediatricnews.com/article/PIIS0...715338/fulltext

 

Volume 40, Issue 12, Page 21 (December 2006)

 

Strep Throat Risks Called Exaggerated, Tx Rationale Changed

TIMOTHY F. KIRN (Sacramento Bureau)

 

Article Outline

• Copyright

 

ASPEN, COLO. — The risk that a sore throat will lead to rheumatic fever has always been vastly exaggerated, and it may be lower now than it once was. In fact, the risk is one of the major myths of medicine, Dr. Michael Radetsky said at a conference on pediatric infectious diseases sponsored by Children's Hospital, Denver.

 

That means any approach—rapid antigen test or culture, or empiric treatment or not—can be justified, said Dr. Radetsky, a pediatric infectious diseases consultant from Albuquerque, N.M.

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Hi Kim,

I think what they are saying here does have some merit. Sore throats and strep do resolve on their own and I personally feel the risk of r. fever is minimal. BUT, yea, I do understand that with this pandas related issue, well, that's a separate issue and should be dealt with accordingly. Who knows, maybe giving out antibiotics too easily could even be a factor for some here. Does anyone here dealing with the strep connection know if their child had antibiotics for anything BEFORE the tic emerged as an issue? Maybe too many antibiotics too soon in a child's life causes some unforseen problems...maybe weakening the immune system or antibody reactions in the future.

 

One other thing I feel the need to put out there, and I'm no expert, but I'm just wondering if anyone newly dealing with tics has a misunderstanding about the PANDAS. In that last thread about azithro that kkver just posted, here is something that stands out for me....and its a long article so much of it could go over someone's head.

"The acronym PANDAS (Pediatric autoimune neuropsychiatric disorder associated with streptoccocal infection) describes a subgroup of children with OCD and/or tic disorder that experience symptoms of EXACERBATION following strep infections. We HYPOTHESIZE that the prevention of strept infection among children in PANDAS subgroup would decrease symptom exacerbation.

 

I think Ronna has tried to express this in her replies, too.

 

Now, what I mean to point out is that I'm wondering if some have the misconception that PANDAS is an illness in and of itself. What I believe the premise to be is that ocd or tic disorder does exist on some level (maybe even latent), however the introduction of strep infection (and all that comes with it, i.e. antibodies attacking, etc.) is just something that well, yea, EXACERBATES, or brings it out, more suddenly and distinctively, as opposed to subtely. It's the infection that causes the problems, not the disorder itself. I'm not debating the way to TREAT it, just that I'm somehow getting the impression that some think it is a totally separate issue and is a kind of disease in and of itself. I'm betting there are many people out there who have these high titers, but do not have any symptoms to show for it, because tics or ocd are not an issue for them... but then, maybe something else is.

 

So, my point is just to point that out....and the article that Kim posted is not really off the wall, it makes sense. But the issue concerning strep as a factor in some children regarding their tic disorder or ocd, well that is something different that, I agree, has to be dealt with separately.

 

Now, my son has had those titers tested twice, and seems not to be an issue, HOWEVER, I am not necessarily dismissing all I know about that connection. As I mentioned before, he had an exacerbation once last year at this time, and coincidentally had a strep throat infection and was treated with antibiotics, and lo and behold, his symptoms did subside right away. So, I'm always on my guard for that, even tho we had the tests. If that ever happens again, I'll get those antibiotics one way or another, even if I have to get Anna Nicole Smith's doctor to prescribe them for me! :)

 

Don't know if I made any sense, but there it is.

 

Faith

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I find the whole PANDAS, TS and tics very interesting.

 

I have wondered if in all the years my son had a sore throat, and swab test came back neg. if he did indeed have strep. I asked my husband if he ever had strep as a child, he said, "No."

 

What I would like to know is, what if a child did have PANDAS and never knew it. Do they grow out of it? Does ones body take care of it on its own? I just don't get it.

 

I never heard of strep when I was a child. I had plenty of sore throats and never saw a Dr. for them.

 

C.P.

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I find the whole PANDAS, TS and tics very interesting.

 

I have wondered if in all the years my son had a sore throat, and swab test came back neg. if he did indeed have strep. I asked my husband if he ever had strep as a child, he said, "No."

 

What I would like to know is, what if a child did have PANDAS and never knew it. Do they grow out of it? Does ones body take care of it on its own? I just don't get it.

 

I never heard of strep when I was a child. I had plenty of sore throats and never saw a Dr. for them.

 

C.P.

Hi I also find this interesting as in the UK we don't even have 'strep' throat as a recgonised thing, they just talk very generally about throat infections and, if it doesn't clear up and gets very infected and there is fever then they give you antibiotics, I am interested as my son but several years ago now had such a bad sore throat he had blisters all over his throat and had antibiotics, but they never use the term 'strep throat' here. It makes me wonder about it all, particularly when his tics onset at starting full time school and with it all the bugs and infections. He has had plenty of sore throats since starting 'big' school, I think it's something I should talk to my doctor about but I fear I wont' get very far with it. I am sorry to sound so ignorant but if you had a very bad 'strep' infection years before could that be the onset of something even years later if the 'strep' isn't totally cleared up by the antibiotics? Many thanks, Kitty

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Faith/All

 

Does anyone here dealing with the strep connection know if their child had antibiotics for anything BEFORE the tic emerged as an issue? Maybe too many antibiotics too soon in a child's life causes some unforseen problems...maybe weakening the immune system or antibody reactions in the future.
Both of my boys took a lot of antibiotics before the emergence of tics.

 

I have to wonder if they know that strep is becoming resistent to antibiotics at an alarming rate? Do they recognize that there are more movement disorders in relationship to strep? Are they afraid that they are causing more harm then they are preventing?

Is Amoxicillan not as effective as it once was, due to it's use in animals that we eat? I just read an article that said, when they started feeding cattle grain, the amount of bacteria like ecoli went way up, in the animals (compared to green grazing). The use of the antibiotics went up too.

 

This abstract says that amox. is the least harmful as far as promoting resistant strains of S pneumonia. Azith is the worst of the three. So we chase disease with antibiotics, and vaccines, and mother nature keeps outsmarting us. That's why I was really torn about whether to give my son Amox. and hope for the best, or go with Azith. After this bout of strep, and no real obvious increase in tics, I think if I'm faced with that decision again, I'm going for the Amox. The minimal tics that I saw, I believe came from the stress of being sick, or lack of enzymes, vits etc. because he didn't have an appetite, and could not tolerate his "stuff" on an empty stomach. I don't think I would be brave enough to not treat strep with anything though? Maybe as time goes on, I'll change my mind on that. This would be due to the impact on tics, not the fear of Rheumatic fever, at this point, but I would still like to do a little more research on that or hear others opinions.

 

 

http://www.pidj.com/pt/re/pidj/abstract.00...#33;8091!-1

 

Abstract:

Community-acquired respiratory infections in general, and those caused by S. pneumoniae in particular, are the main reason for prescribing antimicrobials in young children. Antibiotic drug abuse is common. This is the basis for the initiative for the reduction in antibiotic use. However, failure to consider that not all antibiotics are similar in their effect on promotion of resistance has led to continuous emerging resistance. In the present article, the trends in prescribing antibiotics in young children and their interrelation with antibiotic resistance among clinical respiratory isolates of S. pneumoniae in children will be reviewed, along with theoretical considerations and research evidence that led to concluding that among antibiotics, the least resistance-promoting drug for S. pneumoniae is amoxicillin (+/- clavulanate), whereas oral cephalosporins and azithromycin demonstrate a higher resistance-promotion potential in the individual population in the community. Although antibiotics differ in their resistant-promotion potential, all still do promote resistance.

 

This is from the full text of this abstact

 

The data and literature reviewed above demonstrate

that to reduce antibiotic resistance, it is not sufficient to

simply reduce the overall antibiotic use. It is now evident that

not all antibiotics promote resistance among S. pneumoniae

equally. Amoxicillin (/ clavulanate), especially in higher

dose, is the least harmful with respect to promotion of

resistance, with regard to both personal and societal aspects.

On the other hand, cephalosporins and the long-acting macrolide

azithromycin are the most harmful. Whether reduction

of azithromycin and cephalosporins will be associated with a

parallel reduction of antibiotic resistance needs to be seen,

but if the use of these drugs is not reduced, it is likely that

antibiotic resistance and multiresistance will continue to increase.

 

Now this is something that I would have never believed would be included in a paper like this, but there it is

 

51 We still have to continue to

listen to Voltaire’s advice: “The art of medicine consists in

amusing the patient while nature cures the disease.” This

advice is definitely appropriate in a considerable proportion

of children who receive antibiotics today.

 

"The acronym PANDAS (Pediatric autoimune neuropsychiatric disorder associated with streptoccocal infection) describes a subgroup of children with OCD and/or tic disorder that experience symptoms of EXACERBATION following strep infections. We HYPOTHESIZE that the prevention of strept infection among children in PANDAS subgroup would decrease symptom exacerbation.

 

I think Ronna has tried to express this in her replies, too.

 

That is something that took a while to get through my head.

 

One more thing, a friend of mine had a really horrible reaction to Prednisone. I was seaching some message bds. and noticed how many parents were talking about personality changes in their children while taking antibiotics. I couldn't help but wonder how many kids were having that reaction due to the virus/infection, not the antibiotic?

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I think I'd just be afraid that treating with antibiotics of any kind would be good in short term, and then what about after the course is over? That's when I'd be afraid the tics would come back full force? Has anyone who's gone the route of using the antibiotics for the tics ever been able to stop the antibiotic and then all is okay, at least until next bout? I think maybe, colleenrn treats her daughter that way (on and off antibiotic/azith only when ill?) colleenrn?

 

I just wonder if its like what came first, the chicken or the egg? (The strep infection or the antibiotics)

 

Faith

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In regards to the antibiotic first or tics first question, I know when my daughter was 1-3 she was on antibiotics 3-4 times for an ear infection (all after vaccinations- which is a whole other discussion as I feel that is the main cause of her immune system break down), but for the most part was healthy until she turned 5, exploded with tics and OCD one day and had strep throat. I believe that there could be a lot of factors that can affect children's immune systems, antibiotics could be one.

For the first 3 years when my daughter's tics/OCD increased they would disappear 100% when treated with antibiotics. The past 2 years her tics drastically decrease when treated with antibiotics, but do not always completely go away. I am not sure, but am very afraid, that is is a cummulative effect from each and every time her basal ganglia has been attacked. I pray that one day we will have all the answers.

Colleen

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colleenrn,

 

My husband used to tell me that we should just have a gallon of amox. in the frige at all times. We had a lot of antibiotics for strep and ear infections too.

 

I just noticed another lymph node on my oldest sons neck, this weekend. His allergies are pretty bad right now. We had one x rayed on the back of his neck when he was about 3. My younger son would get one about the size of a golf ball on the front of his neck. I don't know if that one acted up with his last bout of strep or not. I didn't see it, and I didn't feel for it (I can't handle any kind of lump!). I guess I mention the swollen lymph nodes, as I have read quite a bit about them in relationship to vaccines and illness.

 

all after vaccinations- which is a whole other discussion as I feel that is the main cause of her immune system break down

 

Since many of us feel there is a strong immune connection here, can I ask what it is that you suspect caused the damage in regards to vaccines? Is it the number given? The part of the immune system that is prompted by vaccination? The components of the vaccines themselves? All of the above?

 

I would really like to hear your view on this!

 

Kim

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Hi Kim,

I would say "all of the above". For one, the multiple vaccines my daughter received beginning at age 2 months when her immune system was not developed. Two, the many, many toxic ingredients that all vaccines contain such as aluminum, alcohol, glycerine, neomycin,formaldehyde,gelatin,blood and cell products from diferent animals, etc...., not to mention other contaminants. I also wonder if my daughter was predisposed in someway to not tolerate the assault of vaccines on her immune system. She always had strong reactions to the vaccines. She also had shingles this past Fall and she is only 10 yrs. old AND she had received the varicella (chicken pox) vaccine already when she was younger, BUT that is a whole other issue with vaccines. I am MUCH more careful with vaccines with my younger children as I truly believe that is what got the ball rolling with my daughter's PANDAS.

Colleen

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Thanks for the reply colleen.

 

Yea, I have read about the increased incidence of shingles in children, thanks to the wonderful varicella vax.

 

Have you ever read the Simpsonwood transcripts? Lots of good links and info here (the aluminum meetings too) :angry:http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/Simpsonwoo...o%20%20Rico.htm

 

This page gives a few of the highlights (for anyone unfamiliar) These excerpts are just a couple of my favorites

 

http://www.vaccineawareness.org/IllinoisIs...oodExcerpts.htm

 

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 40: “…we have found statistically significant relationships

 

between the exposure and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposures at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”

 

And

 

The second point I could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”

 

There are many more statements that make you go WHAT??????? along with the internal emails that were exposed.

 

If anyone is bored (yea right) this will make for some fascinating reading I promise.

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