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I have put in about 6 hours on gut flora. Over 400 strains.

 

Azithromycin does not affect anaroebic gut flora? Ok, its killing off the bacterial strains that can also be beneficial, along with creating a void which can allow albicans to proliferate? The pkg insert clearly states candida overgrowth may be experienced.

 

As usual, I have tons of article saved, and I'm trying to sort it all out but I thought I would ask the PANDAS Mom's if you could save me some time here? Which stains do you use in your probiotics? Has anything been recommended to you specifically for use with Azith?

 

1: J Chemother. 1999 Oct;11(5):385-90. Links

Documented fungal infections after prophylaxis or therapy with wide spectrum antibiotics: relationship between certain fungal pathogens and particular antimicrobials?Krcmery V Jr, Matejicka F, Pichnova E, Jurga L, Sulcova M, Kunova A, West D.

University of Trnava Department of Medicine, School of Public Health, Slovakia.

 

Antibiotics are known to be one of the major risk factors for fungal infection. We investigated whether there was a relationship between particular documented fungal infections and therapeutically or prophylactically administered antimicrobials in 105 patients with fungemia or histologically proven invasive aspergillosis or fusariosis. Out of 105 patients, 82.9% received antimicrobials affecting anaerobic microbial gut flora such as: imipenem, vancomycin, ceftazidime, metronidazole, clindamycin or ampicillin-sulbactam. In addition, 44.5% of patients had received prophylaxis with ofloxacin. 31.5% of Candida albicans fungemias occurred despite empiric therapy with amphotericin B and 21.1% during prophylaxis with azoles. The incidence of C. albicans infections (fungemias) was significantly higher (58.9% vs 33.7%, p<0.04) in patients receiving antibiotics not affecting anaerobic gut flora such as ofloxacin, an aminoglycoside or azithromycin. On the other hand, patients treated with third generation cephalosporins, carbapenems, glycopeptides, and broad spectrum penicillins were more likely to develop proven invasive Aspergillus spp. infection (27.9% vs 5.3%, p<0.001) in comparison to those treated with antimicrobials which preserve anaerobic gut flora.

 

http://www.doctorfungus.org/mycoses/human/...pergillosis.htm

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract

[Growth of Candida albicans in normal and altered fecal flora in the continuous flow culture model][Article in German]

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12691257

 

In vitro studies on colonization resistance of the human gut microbiota to Candida albicans and the effects of tetracycline and Lactobacillus plantarum LPK.Payne S, Gibson G, Wynne A, Hudspith B, Brostoff J, Tuohy K

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Kim,

just wondering if your son's (the one who was prescribed the antibiotic) tics are up at all? Sorry, my mind is chockful so forgive my questions. If you decide to give the antibiotic, please let us know if it eradicates any of his usual tics. Did he ever take antibiotics before, I mean in last few years, and if so, any effect one way or another? I'm pretty sure yours did not have any strep connections? but still, it would be interesting if it did have some effect.

 

thanks

Faith

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I have put in about 6 hours on gut flora. Over 400 strains.

 

Azithromycin does not affect anaroebic gut flora? Ok, its killing off the bacterial strains that can also be beneficial, along with creating a void which can allow albicans to proliferate? The pkg insert clearly states candida overgrowth may be experienced.

 

As usual, I have tons of article saved, and I'm trying to sort it all out but I thought I would ask the PANDAS Mom's if you could save me some time here? Which stains do you use in your probiotics? Has anything been recommended to you specifically for use with Azith?

 

1: J Chemother. 1999 Oct;11(5):385-90. Links

Documented fungal infections after prophylaxis or therapy with wide spectrum antibiotics: relationship between certain fungal pathogens and particular antimicrobials?Krcmery V Jr, Matejicka F, Pichnova E, Jurga L, Sulcova M, Kunova A, West D.

University of Trnava Department of Medicine, School of Public Health, Slovakia.

 

Antibiotics are known to be one of the major risk factors for fungal infection. We investigated whether there was a relationship between particular documented fungal infections and therapeutically or prophylactically administered antimicrobials in 105 patients with fungemia or histologically proven invasive aspergillosis or fusariosis. Out of 105 patients, 82.9% received antimicrobials affecting anaerobic microbial gut flora such as: imipenem, vancomycin, ceftazidime, metronidazole, clindamycin or ampicillin-sulbactam. In addition, 44.5% of patients had received prophylaxis with ofloxacin. 31.5% of Candida albicans fungemias occurred despite empiric therapy with amphotericin B and 21.1% during prophylaxis with azoles. The incidence of C. albicans infections (fungemias) was significantly higher (58.9% vs 33.7%, p<0.04) in patients receiving antibiotics not affecting anaerobic gut flora such as ofloxacin, an aminoglycoside or azithromycin. On the other hand, patients treated with third generation cephalosporins, carbapenems, glycopeptides, and broad spectrum penicillins were more likely to develop proven invasive Aspergillus spp. infection (27.9% vs 5.3%, p<0.001) in comparison to those treated with antimicrobials which preserve anaerobic gut flora.

 

http://www.doctorfungus.org/mycoses/human/...pergillosis.htm

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract

[Growth of Candida albicans in normal and altered fecal flora in the continuous flow culture model][Article in German]

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12691257

 

In vitro studies on colonization resistance of the human gut microbiota to Candida albicans and the effects of tetracycline and Lactobacillus plantarum LPK.Payne S, Gibson G, Wynne A, Hudspith B, Brostoff J, Tuohy K

 

 

I read this and this is all way over my head.

 

My son is on amoxicillian and his tics have come back. The vocal is getting worse and he's doing eye rolling too. I can't believe this. We almost had this under control before this set back. But his face is getting better so yeah for that.

 

I am giving him primadolphilius. It has NutraFlora in it only 1.8g. My doctor said he can't get enough of it. I have been giving him 2 tsp a day. Is there something better you think I should use?

 

On a side note...

Reading all the posts on PANDAS....i never had him tested for that. Wondering i I should to rule it out,

 

Thanks

PetB

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Petb,

 

The only reason I had my son tested for PANDAS was to rule it out, and peace of mind. I could never get past the fact he had never tested positive for strep. ( quick 10 min test) I remember the Dr. wanting to rule out Lyme too. I had not thought of that at the time. I think... if it gives you peace of mind go for it.

 

Kim, was wondering what you thought of my sons Metametrix bacterial #s

D-Lactate 0.5

Dihydroxyphenylpropionate 0.16

D-Arbinitol 27

 

Thanks,

C.P.

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Petb,

How long on the amoxy? Are you giving correct dosage and consistently? Just curious, I feel tics should get better, not worse on antibiotic. NOW, when the course of antibiotic is OVER, maybe that's when tics would creep back and get worse. Just a quick recap, (and we don't have the strep/Pandas connection--had the blood tests tho) but one time my son started that eye roll/looking up tic last May one weekend and acted way more hyper than would be considered usual at a backyard birthday party, I couldn't control him. On way home he said his throat hurt and when I brought him to the doctor next day (really I went because I was freaked by the eye tic) and he said he had strep, (just by examining the throat, no test) and gave amoxycilin. Within two days that tic stopped. Thats when I did the research, but apparently, when tested several weeks later, he did not have elevated titers. In fact we did it six months later per our DAN doctor and it was the same. BUT I still can't believe that was a coincidence, most tics do not just last a few days. So, I somehow think it had something to do with it, but, who knows. ........so it just kind of correlates with what colleenrn was stating about trying antibiotics when the child was sick just to see and it did seem to help with her. I don't know.....not saying antibiotics are the way to go, cause there are problems with that too, just relating my experience.

 

You mentioned that the carnitine had helped with the vocal tics before--is he still on that?

 

Faith

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Faith,

 

I did start the zithromax on Sunday when it was prescribed. I have not seen any increase in tics.

 

If I watch his face close, I can see a little extra movement, but again, he has not been getting some of his regular supplements, and he has had more juice and even a MEDIUM size RED slurpee. I almost called Child Protective

Services on myself. He just wanted it soooo bad and he felt so rotten.

 

If we have a problem, I think it will be more likely due to candida than strep antibodies at this point.

 

C.P.

 

I think your son's Dihydroxyphenylpropionate indicates that he does not have a problem with clostridial overgrowth. From my understanding, that can be something that you don't want an overgrowth of. Both of our guys have low #'s there. From what I've read Clostrida is present in healthy individuals. Is it abnormal for those numbers to be that low? I don't know.

 

The low # on D-lactate should mean it would be fine for him to take probiotics containing Lactobacillus acidophilus.

 

I would not consider a number of 27 for D-arabinitol to be high. Didn't your Dr. make a remark about it creeping up? Was this a repeat test?

 

Just thought I would mention that I don't have total confidence in this test as far as the metabolite that they measure for yeast/fungal. I would feel much more confident in Great Plains OAT.

 

I have read where many parents do rotate probiotics.

 

C.P. will you do me a favor? Will you check your son's numbers for Benzoate and Hippurate. Also, p-Hydroxphenylacetate. My son had benzoate edging the high zone, with low hippurate. This may indicate a need for Lysine. Tonight I found this article about a medical error resulting in babies being exposed to benzoate in a medical setting. They developed a gasping syndrome. Kind of interesting.

 

Thought you might like to read this too. Do you think populating the gut with good stuff, might help some kids with a growth spurt?

 

http://en.allexperts.com/e/g/gu/gut_flora.htm

 

Carbohydrate fermentation and absorption

Without gut flora, the human body would be unable to break down and use some of the carbohydrates it consumes, because some types of gut flora have enzymes that human cells lack for breaking down polysaccharides. Rodents raised in a sterile environment and lacking in gut flora need to eat 30% more calories just to remain the same weight as their normal counterparts. Carbohydrates that humans cannot digest without bacterial help include starches; fiber; oligosaccharides and sugars that the body failed to absorb like lactose and alcohols; mucus produced by the gut; and proteins.

 

PetB.

 

I have Primadolphilius bookmarked, so I know someone was saying it was a good product.

 

Is your son taking the liquid amox? Do you think he could be reacting to something in that? The other thing, could be the staph or strep that is causing the impetigo, causing the tics to flair? How close to the start of the antibiotic did you notice the increase?

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Faith,

 

I ran across this and thought I'd save it for you. Forgot to post it.

 

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/1/3/441

 

Increased Anion Gap Metabolic Acidosis as a Result of 5-Oxoproline (Pyroglutamic Acid): A Role for Acetaminophen.

 

This is just some other misc. info. I had saved

 

Dihydroxyphenylpropionate

 

http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/full/54/10/987

 

Clostridia are recognized toxin-producers, including neurotoxins (Hatheway, 1990). Theoretically, toxic products may be overexpressed in the autistic gut, which may lead to increased levels in the bloodstream and thus exert systemic effects. Interestingly, many anecdotal reports from parents of autistic children report worsening of behavioural symptoms coinciding with bouts of GI problems.

 

 

AND

 

Previous studies have reported increased resistance of clostridia to several antimicrobial agents. Sandler et al. (2000) demonstrated significant improvements in ASD children given vancomycin orally. However, the benefit was short term, with regression noted approximately 2 weeks after treatment ceased. These findings may be explained by vancomycin treatment reducing the Clostridium population, but due to the persistence of spores the clostridial levels return once treatment has stopped. Since orally administered vancomycin is only minimally absorbed, it is likely that the effect is mediated, in some way, through vancomycin activity on intestinal bacteria. Thus, it has been suggested that the short-term benefit from vancomycin treatment might be due to the temporary elimination of neurotoxin-producing micro-organisms.

 

 

 

There is now evidence that the gut microflora plays a role in autism. Modulation of the gut microflora by reducing the numbers of certain clostridia in ASD patients, while stimulating more beneficial gut bacteria, may help alleviate some of the related symptoms.

 

http://www.naturalhealthservice.org/metabolic_profile.html

 

D-lactate elevation is an indicator of dysbiosis caused by carbohydrate malabsorption.

 

http://pediatric.um-surgery.org/program/sbs/B_short.html

 

d-lactic acidosis has been reported in children, causing metabolic acidosis, drowsiness and confusion. This diagnosis should be considered in a child with SBS who presents with metabolic acidosis, high serum anion gap, normal lactate level, and negative Acetest. It may result from a combination of factors including carbohydrate malabsorption with increased delivery of nutrients to the colon, high carbohydrate intake, colonic flora of the type to produce d lactic acid, altered colonic motility, allowing time for the nutrients to undergo fermentation, and impaired d-lactate metabolism

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Kim,

 

Thanks... The yeast was done by the ped. last Oct. He just left me a message, and said it was normal. This is the first test done by this Dr. Does she think it is creeping up because 32 starts in the orange color? All the high numbers are in the orange.

 

He had high Hippurate (764) she said that was ok, high Hippurate keeps Benzoate low. His Benzoate (1) and

p-Hydroxphenylacetate (4)

 

C.P.

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Thank you so much CP.

 

I wonder if they have lowered the range for what is considered high for yeast/D arabinitol?

 

My sons # of of 51 is right at the end of the green. 57 starts the yellow zone. He is in the 4th quintile, at about 70%. Im going to call Direct Labs/Metametrix, as soon as I get a chance and ask about that. This test was done a while ago.

 

You mentioned that your Ped did a test for yeast. Mine did too. It was blood work-negative.

 

Claire very patiently went over with me, why blood results won't show a problem with yeast in the GIT. It will show more of an allergic type reaction, to candida, apparently, but not what we're looking for. The urine test that Metametrix and Great Plains are looking for will only be found in urine, and they do not agree on what that metabolite is.

 

Now don't go throwing me for a loop, and telling me the test your Ped. did was urine????? I couldn't find a urine test anywhere from Lab corp or Quest for candida/yeast, the two that my Ped would agree to :mellow:

 

As for the other #'s it kind of confirms what I have thought all along. My son probably has more gut problems then some kids here have. I would expect that from the limited diet that he consumes.

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My doctor recommends the probiotic called Megaflora. It contains a total of 20 billion viable cells consisting of: Lactobacillus rhamnosus; Bifidobacterium bifidum; Lactobacillus acidophilus; Bifidobacterium infantis; Bifidobacterium longum; Streptococcus thermophilus; Lactobacillus plantarum; Lactobacillus salivarius; Lactobacillus reuteri; Lactobacillus casei; Lactobacillus bulgaricus; Lactobacillus acidophilus DDS-1; Lactobacillus sporogenes; Bacillus laterosporus

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