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Amino acid question


Irena

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I was happy to find NOW's L-methionine and L-phenyloalanine in Poland. I am still not sure whether I will have it custom made (I would have to order it somewhere abroad).

 

But...

I read that methionine is a sulphur amino acid. How can this affect candida? In Docotr's Data test results it said that one should not take NAC if there is a candida problem They didn't mention methionine. I knew about NAC (and ALA - controversial also for other reasons) but never heard that methionine can be a problem in candidiasis.

 

Another question is about L-phenyloalanine. I read it is a precursor to dopamine "LPA can be converted to L-tyrosine (another amino acid) and subsequently to L-dopa, norepinephrine, and epinephrine" (from Solgar Healthnotes). I've always heard warnings about tyrosine. Is phenyloalanine OK?

 

Could anyone give me an address of a compunding pharmacy in US (or Europe if possible) that prepares amino acids custom made.

 

And the last question. My friend is flying to New York in a few days. I would like to ask him to buy me some supplements. I've been trying to find a chain supplement store that has many branches so he didn't spend much time looking for it. The only one I found which seems to have many branches in NY is the Vitamin Shoppe. Is this one all right? Any brand they store that you would recommend? Any other ideas?

 

Thank you.

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Hi Irena

 

the Vitamin Shoppe is an excellent store (also online) and frequently their own brand is much cheaper and acceptable in terms of purity

 

it is also one of the few stores where I can purchase monolaurin, the coconut derived antimicrobial

 

we were never told to avoid NAC (altho I do not give it to my son)

 

methionine is one of the aminos that is very helpful for OCD and anxiety (best used in the samE form) My son did not experience any upswing in candida activity while he was on it (almost four years)

 

phenylalanine is one to be treated with caution because it is a dopamine booster and so can increase tics

We used it for about 3 months in the D form (not the L form) as the D form stimulates endorphin release and that is beneficial for those who experience self injurious tics/OCD. The D form should not be used longterm! The L form helps with depression, but has that unwanted dopaminergic boost, and so should be avoided in people with TS

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Thank you, Chemar for the info.

 

I am a bit lost in all this. I better leave phenyloalanine aside. I can buy methionine in a form of SamE as NOW's SamE is available in Poland. NOW's Lysine, isoleucine and valine is also available as BCAA. One by one I will try to get them all somehow.

Today we are starting strong anti-candida treatment. Wish us luck!

 

Irena

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Irena

forgive me for not remembering if you have mentioned this before, but why are you planning to give amino acids?

Has he tested low on specific ones?

 

the only amino acids that appear to have direct benefit for tics are taurine and carnitine, altho even there, one must be careful as not all people can tolerate them well

 

because the amino acids have such a dramatic influence on neurology, it is really advisable to use them with great caution and only as directed by a physician

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Irena,

Yes, I was wondering too, why you are planning to give amino acids. I realize that you said earlier that Stas has tested low on many of the aminos, however, did the testing physician recommend what to take, or are you just figuring this out on your own? If you did the tests on your own, I suggest you take the results to some sort of doctor or naturopath to figure out what he should take and especially the amounts, for they should be in some sort of balance. I would not do this alone.

 

Did any of the docs believe that correcting these imbalances would have an impact on his tics? Or any other issues he may have?

 

Also, while we are on the subject,

 

C.P.

Does your son have iron deficiency anemia, or just low in iron? I thought iron was not a good thing to supplement for anyone, other than women in menstruating years who perhaps lose a lot of blood? Not sure on this, just think so. (also, how long on the iron supp before increase in tics?)

 

I guess what I'm thinking is that its very complicated to keep on top of every imbalance in the body, for I would think most would fluctuate at different times. And there could be more than meets the eye for why a deficiency or overabundance occurs, and so supplementing many not be the absolute fix. For instance, my son gets B12 shots because he does not methylate properly. But on the blood test he showed HiGH B12 levels. If I just tried to figure this out on my own I would have thought he didn't need B12, but the case was just the opposite because high levels of B12 means that it is stuck and builds up, and is not converted, thus the need for methyl B to bypass this problem. ^_^

 

I should have my biochemistry degree in the mail shortly!!

 

Faith

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I take NAC and do think that what they say about it is true: it gives up its sulfur molecule more readily than the other suflur containing amino acids. I can always tell when I have taken more NAC than I normally do. I feel as though my body is saturated with sulfur. This effects different things like causes loose stools and the foulest smelling flatulence that smells like rotten eggs. But sulfur is good for you.

 

I don't think that methionine may have exactly the same impact as NAC, but that is a guess from my personal experience. Of course if you are treating someone with tourettes you are probably also supplementing taurine. Taurine can be converted into cysteine. I can take high doses of tuarine and not feel like my body is saturated with sulfur. Taurine does not give up the sulfur the same as NAC.

 

I have read about some supplements making candida worse. But I think that the sulfur from NAC and from ALA are more potent (more readily available) than the sulfur you are getting from the other amino acids. I notice differences when I take the NAC and the ALA that I don't notice from the high doses of taurine that I take.

 

One thing to consider instead of DLPA is mucuna. I take both DLPA and mucuna for my low dopamine levels. This herb does help with dopamine levels but I find that it doesn't have the same exact action as DLPA. DLPA has the effect of lowering my serotonin levels. That is how dopamine and serotonin work they need to be balanced against each other. I take the mucuna and it helps, I can feel something change in my brain when I take it on an empty stomach, but mucuna does not effect my serotonin levels for some reason. So mucuna might be another option instead of the DLPA.

 

But I think you need to supplement these under medical supervision. There is a method of supplementing the aminos that increase the inhibitory neuros first. This makes sure you basically get those balanced first. That is why sometimes people may have the experience of feeling agitated from taking tyrosine; it is increasing the excitotory neuros and not enough of the inhibitory ones are increasing. You need to know how to balance these amino acids properly.

 

I agree that the vitamin shoppe is a good source for nutritional supplements, and their store brands are usually cheaper like Chemar said.

 

My understanding is that someone who benefits from SAMe probably should not be taking something like DLPA or phenylalanine. SAMe means high histamine levels, and usually histadelics don't have low dopamine levels but may have low NE (norepenephrine) levels. The mucuna, I think would help with the NE and E levels because the are a metabolite of dopamine.

 

BCAA is good for those with chronic health problems. I think the BCAA helped with my muscle weakness and my fatigue somewhat.

 

If you are supplementing all of these amino acids you really need the proper medical supervision. IF you miss one essential and needed amino acid you could develop some new symptoms.

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I For instance, my son gets B12 shots because he does not methylate properly. But on the blood test he showed HiGH B12 levels. If I just tried to figure this out on my own I would have thought he didn't need B12, but the case was just the opposite because high levels of B12 means that it is stuck and builds up, and is not converted, thus the need for methyl B to bypass this problem. ^_^

 

I should have my biochemistry degree in the mail shortly!!

 

Faith

 

You can try searching for the term methyl folate trap. This happens with a b-12 deficiency. I think this is what you are referring to. I know I have read that one nutrient gets trapped and may appear high in tests, but that is really an indication that the body is not converting that nutrient or not donating the methyl donor as it should be. It is a complex subject and even I get confused with some of this stuff sometimes.

 

But faulty methylation can be corrected with the right nutrients. Severe methylation problems would indicate either high or low histamine levels. There are only two possible groups of nutrients that are needed. Have you tried to test your childs histamine levels yourself with nicotinic acid. I can explain how to do this test if you are interested.

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Thank you all!

 

Staś tested low in many amino acid levels. You are right that it is all much more sophisticated that just supplementing what shows low in tests. The amino acids which were low are: methionine, cysteine, aspartate, cystine, whereas recommended supplementation include: tryptophan - 230mg

arginine-720mg

histidine 565mg

izoleucitine 1190mg

leucine 1615mg

lysine 720mg

methionine 1060mg

phenyalanine 1185 mg

threonine 620mg

valine 1420 mg

P-5-P 30mg

alphaketoglutarate - 650mg

and taurine - 0 mg

 

As you can see what they recommend is not what he tested low in. But all the amino acid Doctor's Data recommend are exogenous amino acids, i.e. those which our body cannot produce but needs to get from food. Evidently, Staś does not absorb them properly from food.

 

He tested high in creatinine (they say it can just be poor hydration), beta-alanine - very high (most probably - candida; they say beta-alanine is neurotoxic) and taurine (I I already said Staś was taking magnesium taurate, now I switched to other forms of chelated magnesiu + 500mg of taurine; I didn't follow their suggestion to give it up).

 

You say amino acid supplementation needs to be monitored by a physician. Well, our doctor simply said we needed to order what they said. When she finds time she will give me an address of a compunding pharmacy in the US and I am to order the amino acids.

 

This is not that simple to me. Thanks to you I am aware that it is not a good idea to give them all together. That is one thing. Then I read that tryptophan has to be taken on an empty stomach otherwise it does not work. Then I hear that giving some of them may not be such a good idea at all. I'm lost.

 

All of those amino acids that they recommend for Staś are in Solgar's Amino 75 formula (except tryptophan). But just 75 mg in one capsule. I give 3-4 capsules a day, i.e. 225-300mg. I can't afford to give more and I am not sure I want to.

 

I know I need to be cautious. And our priority now is to heal his gut and get rid of candida thus improving absorption of nutrients. We started today. Our treatment is based on Mycopryl (very strong caprylic acid - more than 2000mg three times a day), very potent probiotic (BioCare's Bioacidophilus), Biotin ( 3 x 500 mg to prevent candida turning to fungi), anti-candida herbs (aloe, tannates, garlic, grapefruit seed extract, goldenseal, pau d'arco, uva ursi, olive oil - not all together but I will rotate some of them), vitamins and minerals to boost immunity (I will not specify them as they are those we usually take with high B vitamin content and a lot of vit C).

Of course - diet (no sugars, even no fruit for the first three weeks, not yeasty and fermented foods)

And another very important element - supplements specifically meant to heal the gut: L-glutamine, N-Acetylo-Glucozamine (NAG), Rice bran oil (gamma-oryzenol), Butyric acid, Fructooligosacharides). They are all included in Permatrol, special formula for healing the gut.

 

I wanted to post it under a separate topic but I may as well do it here. I decided not to use Nystatine as I don't belive that it is effective if candida grew into a mucus membrane of the gut. I made the decision and was very happy to hear from our doctor that while comprehensive stool anlaysis of her Polish patients very often show that candida does not react to Nystatine or even more often to Fluconazole (we were using it, eveidently with no effect), ALL of them show reaction to caprylic acid.

 

Going back to amino acids, I know that they may not be linked directly to tics but right now I worry about his overall health. He's pale and sometimes so tired after school that he sleeps even three hours in the afternoon/evening. Honestly, I don't know what to do with those amino acids. Maybe I will stay with those low doses of Solgar's Amino 75 and introduce tryptophan if my friend buys it in NY (not available in Poland). I could also introduce methionine (or SamE) and BCAA (lysine, isoleucine and valine) as they are also available here but I am not sure if picking just some of them and not excatly in recommended doses would do more harm than good. So still ??????????

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I would question that advice. For one thing that taurine seems wrong to me. Taurine is conditionally essential. I have a B6 dependency so must take taurine. My body may not be able to convert methionine into cysteine, and then cysteine into taurine because b6 is needed for this conversion.

 

You have p-5-p but no tuarine. That seems like the person giving you this advice is missing something pretty basic in my opinion. Taurine is essential when you supplement amino acids. It has a special role in brain chemistry. It either balances all neurotransmitters or just the inhibitory ones.

 

You asked a while ago and said that he was taking mg. taurate and a taurine supplement of 500 mg. I think the high taurine might be explained by the 500 mg. of taurine. But that is the problem with doing that test and taking supplements. I think you got results that are not that accurate because of that taurine supplement. Your doc may be trying to second guess the taurine because of the possibly skewed results.

 

Now if he takes the methionine and tests again, checking for the taurine that might make sense. But I don't think that is what you are doing.

 

I have read that you need to do a two stage method of supplementing amino acids. You supplement the ones that raise the inhibitory neurotransmitters first. This help calm down the brain and reduce anxiety. When these inhibitory neuros are good than you can introduce the aminos that increase the excitotory neuros, like phenylalanine. Some people will experience a problem when supplementing DLPA or tyrosine such as agitation or anger problems. I think that is an indication that the inhibitory neuros are not at good levels. It is important to make sure that there is a balance of the excitoroty neuros with the inhibitory neuros otherwise the person can feel off or something.

 

The only ones that I know of that need to be taken separately are tryptophan and DLPA. I take both of these. I take the DLPA with breakfast and lunch and sometimes in the afternoon, but never at night. And I only take the tryptophan at night close to bedtime. These two are the only ones I think you need to be careful. If I increase the dose of DLPA it seems to lower my serotonin levels. That is how dopamine and serotonin work, they balance each other. So when you adjust the dose of one you may have to adjust the dose of the other. These two are the trickiest to take. The others are not so much an issue I think.

 

But I have a book at home "the healing nutrients within" and it has a chart to show what amino acids complement other ones and what ones work against some of the others. I always check this list before changing any combo. I think anyone using amino acids should have a list like this to refer to.

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Thank you, Ortho. Once again I am impressed by your knowledge.

 

The amino acid supplementation I listed above was included in Staś' amino acid test results by Doctor's Data. My doctor doesn't go into details and wants us simply to follow their recommendation. I have no chance for good supervision of his amino acid needs.

 

What you just wrote ensured me that it had been a good decision not to give up taurine. And I understand that I should not worry so much about other amino acids, except for phenyloalanine (I am sorry I'm simplifying things).

 

Would you, please, help me with those questions:

 

- Is it OK to open a capsule of tryptophan? It comes usually in 500mg capsules. They say I should give him 230 mg and I don't want to give him more that is needed.

 

- Shall I continue giving him Amino 75 (it includes phenyloalanine)? One capsule has 75 mg of each exogenous amino acid (except tryptophan)? I'm giving him 3-4 capsules a day. Is that amount of phenyloalanine OK or, just to be on the safe side, I should give it up alltogether?

 

- He needs methionine and you all say it is important. Which form shall I use: L-methionine or SamE (no OCD or other behaviour isues, but very probable methylation problems - although I still don't understand the process)

 

- Shall I give him BCAA (NOW: valine 400mg, isoleucine 400mg and leucine 800mg)?

 

I am sorry I'm asking such specific questions but, honestly, I have no-one to ask. And I don't want to go a wrong way.

 

Thank you.

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Thank you, Ortho. Once again I am impressed by your knowledge.

 

The amino acid supplementation I listed above was included in Staś' amino acid test results by Doctor's Data. My doctor doesn't go into details and wants us simply to follow their recommendation. I have no chance for good supervision of his amino acid needs.

 

What you just wrote ensured me that it had been a good decision not to give up taurine. And I understand that I should not worry so much about other amino acids, except for phenyloalanine (I am sorry I'm simplifying things).

 

Would you, please, help me with those questions:

 

- Is it OK to open a capsule of tryptophan? It comes usually in 500mg capsules. They say I should give him 230 mg and I don't want to give him more that is needed.

 

- Shall I continue giving him Amino 75 (it includes phenyloalanine)? One capsule has 75 mg of each exogenous amino acid (except tryptophan)? I'm giving him 3-4 capsules a day. Is that amount of phenyloalanine OK or, just to be on the safe side, I should give it up alltogether?

 

- He needs methionine and you all say it is important. Which form shall I use: L-methionine or SamE (no OCD or other behaviour isues, but very probable methylation problems - although I still don't understand the process)

 

- Shall I give him BCAA (NOW: valine 400mg, isoleucine 400mg and leucine 800mg)?

 

I am sorry I'm asking such specific questions but, honestly, I have no-one to ask. And I don't want to go a wrong way.

 

Thank you.

 

Use SAMe in the beginning. I think it may work better. At some point you may look around for methionine and try that. But SAMe is fine early on. SAMe can work better than methionine in the beginning of supplementing.

 

You can give him the BCAA. I don't think that is a problem. I take BCAA and find it is helps mostly with my musclulature (fatigue and muscle weakness) and not so much for my brain chemistry. I don't think it should be a problem.

 

Most amino acids taste fine. If you open up the tryptophan that should work, but it may be hard to get the dose exactly. But that should not be a problem. I would give him the tryptophan at night so it does not interfere with the phenlyalanine (DLPA).

 

I wouldn't worry about the DLPA or phenlyalanine in that amino acid blend. It is a small amount and mixed with other amino acid. Just use that amino blend during the day (NOT near bedtime) and don't give it to him when he takes the tryptophan. Giving him 3 or 4 capsules should not be a problem since it is a blend of other amino acids with the DLPA. Even four capsules would mean a total of 300 mg. of DLPA mixed with other amino acids. That doesn't sound too high to me.

 

I think you could have a problem if you took one amino acid and gave him high doses for a long time. One amino acid by itself can cause other amino acids levels to seem low relatively speaking. What you are giving him is BCAA which is a blend of a couple of amino acids and then the amino acid blend with DLPA. Those two blends I would assume do not have any one amino acid in large doses, so being balanced they should not cause any serious problems. And the low tryrptohan dose should not be a problem.

 

I do find that the DLPA and tryptophan I take have to balance each other. If I increase the dose of one of those amino acids then other one seems too low after that. There is a balance needed between serotonin (tryptpophan) levels and dopamine (DLPA) levels. So these two need to be balanced with one other. This is more of a problem in the beginning of supplementing. These two amino acids are the ones you have to be careful with because they do seem to work against and balance each other. Those doses of DLPA and tryptophan seem to be reasonable amounts to me.

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THANK YOU SO MUCH, ORTHO!

 

One more question about tryptophan. I read that it turns to serotonine if taken in the morning or to melatonine if taken at night. Don't we want rather this serotonine effect? Or maybe what we really need with tics is niacin which, as I read, tryptophan takes part in producing, too. So maybe time of the day is not that important. What do you think?

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I For instance, my son gets B12 shots because he does not methylate properly. But on the blood test he showed HiGH B12 levels. If I just tried to figure this out on my own I would have thought he didn't need B12, but the case was just the opposite because high levels of B12 means that it is stuck and builds up, and is not converted, thus the need for methyl B to bypass this problem. :)

 

I should have my biochemistry degree in the mail shortly!!

 

Faith

 

You can try searching for the term methyl folate trap. This happens with a b-12 deficiency. I think this is what you are referring to. I know I have read that one nutrient gets trapped and may appear high in tests, but that is really an indication that the body is not converting that nutrient or not donating the methyl donor as it should be. It is a complex subject and even I get confused with some of this stuff sometimes.

 

But faulty methylation can be corrected with the right nutrients. Severe methylation problems would indicate either high or low histamine levels. There are only two possible groups of nutrients that are needed. Have you tried to test your childs histamine levels yourself with nicotinic acid. I can explain how to do this test if you are interested.

 

 

Orthomolecular,

I am not aware if he is low or high histamine. I am assuming high, does undermethylating go hand in hand with high or not necessarily? What you refer to above is correct, he does not methylate due to the MTHFR gene mutation. We are correcting with methyl B12 shots, and leucovorin, which is FOLINIC acid. I am still having a confusion as to what form is better for this methyl path--FOLINIC acid or FOLIC acid. DAN doctor says folinic and another doctor I consulted with on-line says it is the wrong form and folic acid should be used. I showed his reasoning to my natoropath who in turn consulted with someone and agreed folic acid is correct. I was all set to try it that way, and now I just read somewhere else that folinic acid is the way. (the reasoning is that folinic acid is the bioactive form) (but the folic acid advocate says its because folic acid is donated to two pathways, and cannot be done with folinic) :wacko:

 

You seem to have much knowledge, do you know what should be used for this pathway.? In other words, we want to get him to methylate properly. I don't understand the contraversy. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

 

Also, I would like to try that test with the niacin, but am afraid it would have an adverse effect on his tics. Could I try it on myself first? I remember a very long time ago, I did get that flush feeling and figured out it was the niacin, but have no idea how much I took.) I am wondering about his tolerance of B vits. Cooincidentally, after three weeks off all vits except some minerals, I felt he was starting to improve (tics slowing, getting milder). Then we added a low dose of a B complex (Bio-3B-G by Biotics Research--it contains 20 mg. of niacin and 400 mcg. of folic acid, but he takes 6 pills per day) and after a week of taking them, I see tics sneaking in again. Not totally sure if its the effects of the B's, but I watch like a hawk. So right now I am just suspicious. Will stop a week and see--is that enough time? Again, any insight is appreciated.

 

Thanks

Faith

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Faith

 

my son's tics always seem to increase if he gets a B Complex, whereas he can tolerate Bs in his multi and some of them individually ( but we give no extra B12, folic acid or niacin above what is in the multi as he tics more with these as with a B complex)

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Faith

 

my son's tics always seem to increase if he gets a B Complex, whereas he can tolerate Bs in his multi and some of them individually ( but we give no extra B12, folic acid or niacin above what is in the multi as he tics more with these as with a B complex)

 

I suspect your son is a histadelic, Chemar, and that is why he has trouble with the b complex or the naicin or folic acid separately. B12 can cause problems for some histadelics but not all.

 

Faith, I want to review your question further before I give you an answer.

 

Irena, that is true about tryptophan but if your son is taking any form of DLPA than it is best to take that early in the day. I take the tryptophan at night for that reason and that reason alone (because the DLPA has to be taken earlier in the day and not late at night). The tryptophan will do the same, I think, whatever time of the day you take it. Of course if you wanted to try it earlier in the day, you could but just not with the DLPA.

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