Need discipline help

[lmkmip67]

I know our kids can not help some of the things that they do and especially during flairs it is even harder. But I am really struggling with a few behaviors of Ian's. He is going to be 10 in July. He really struggles with impulse control. The thing that is really bothering me and we need to find a way to drive home that he can do it, is swearing and saying things like "shut up" and calling us "idiot." etc. He is toughest with us. He argues to no end. We do not swear in our family as a rule. Not saying I have never said "damn" or that DH doesn't say "" once in a while, etc. But we do not speak that way at all. We are also very respectful and always say thank you , etc. I hear that Ian is very respectful with others, but for some reason he does not seem to feel the need with us. It is hard to discipline as you would for a normal. My daughter never acted in such a way. She knew it was wrong and learned to respect us. I think deep down he respects us, but the language needs to stop. We take things away, we have put him in time out (in the bathroom, he hates it, it seems to really offend him) for 5 minutes if he goes on his own, 10 if we have to escort him. I have take away screens, going to the park, etc. I understand that much of it is impulse control and that kids this age do test bad language, try to act cool with friends, etc. But I have a zero tolerance policy with it here. With the way our kids can be, and during flairs, does any one else have ideas or ways they have handled such things with any success? He sees a therapist and she tries to discuss this with him, too. While I understand he operates differently than other kids and can not help some of these things I need to drive it home that some things are not acceptable and even though he has PANDAS, he still has choices he needs to make and consequences if he makes the wrong ones. The issue is he will end up losing all his privileges, friends, playdates, etc. if I punish like I would for a regular.

 

Very tired mama in MA.

Lisa

 

[Hrosenkrantz]

I'm interested in the responses to this. Our son is a week and a half post IVIG and he is behaving so naughty -- doing things like grabbing a container of milk and dumping it on the floor and laughing, behaviour that is not acceptable,

[smartyjones]

would you consider working a problem solving model with him to devise a solution that works for all involved -- key phrase -- "that is a solution -- but we need a solution that works for everyone involved, that solution doesn't so much work for me."

at a calm, neutral time -- sit down to discuss the problem

 

step 1 -- define the problem -- it's interesting to see that not everyone even agrees on the problem or that there is a problem -- you strongly feel you have definitely made it known there is a problem -- he may honestly not even think it's that big of a deal

 

step 2 -- define the common goal -- very interesting for us, ds often has a different goal than everyone else involved -- key point -- how could we possibly have a common solution if we have different goals

 

step 3 -- devise ALL the possible solutions -- many are actually solutions -- not good ones, but solutions; not ones that work for everyone involved, but solutions -- ie. mom just needs to relax -- we write them all down but peg the ones that are not viable for all parties. try for 2-4 possible good ones for all involved; discuss why and how the bad ones are bad; in first doing this, we had to strongly state, "i'm not saying this is what we are going to do, i'm saying it is a possible solution."

 

step 4 -- pick the solution to try FIRST

 

step 5 -- try that solution

 

step 6 -- evaluate -- continue with that solution, pick another one or back to the drawing board for more ideas

 

 

for you, it may be that you spend time in define the problem and goal discussing calmly why this is such a problem -- it's against our rules, it makes other people feel bad, it damages our relationship, etc. then the solutions may be what you are going to do about it -- when you call me an idiot, you will lose X. I know you have done that before, but I've really been surprised at some of the good solutions ds comes up with and he's more likely to stick with it if he's come up with it or has agreed to it beforehand. possible, "when you feel so angry and frustrated you want to call me an idiot, you can do X instead."

 

both my kids interrupt each other and me -- we have a plan to use the sign language "d" for 'don't interrupt'. granted, it's hard to remember to do it -- but it's much more successful and generates much nicer feelings than the other frustrated responses. they do it b/c they don't want to forget what they have to say -- we've also used a notebook to write it -- again, harder to use -- not so successful on the fly -- but saves yelling and arguing.

 

we have also gotten some great help from social thinking -- it's a whole program you can google -- many books etc. simple but just puts it into terms kids easily get and like and can remember.

 

also -- my nephew's teacher once tallied the times she was interrupted in a 50 min class -- something ridiculous like well over 100. when she sat down with him and calmly, rationally discussed how could she possibly get through her lesson plan being interrupted every 20 seconds and he was the second highest offender -- he was stunned he had done that. it was far more successful in getting him to work on it than all the other yelling, reminding, punishing etc. he interrupts with useful, on target comments -- so he didn't even make the connection that it is still interrupting, even if's its correct and on task.

 

good luck.

Edited June 25, 2013 by smartyjones

[pr40]

i am skeptical about all the behavioral techniques when our kids are in exacerbation. we do try to enforce them just as you do.

so, perhaps this: change expectations. bad language is probably a compulsion. while we have to say it should not be used, we cannot at the same time expect the results to be great at CERTAIN times.

but, then, there is a larger issue of getting him beyond exacerbation. that, in our case, solves most behavioral problems.

[lmkmip67]

That is an interesting idea. Certainly something we can try over the summer. I have my doubts that Ian is quite focused enough to sit down and work through something like this. But something to keep in mind.

[smartyjones]

problem solving and social thinking do take focus and participation from the kid -- not a ton, but you do need some.

 

I remember a book I read a while back -- When Labels Don't Fit - that had some helpful ideas. the fact is, his brain is working differently than what we generally expect from a kid and how we are used to dealing with people -- but, you still need some ideas of how to cope for yourself without losing your own mind.

 

dcmom has some great ideas to help also -- she and I were discussing things on this forum - perhaps around Jan - spring of 2012. maybe you can search some posts from her around then and find some things - or pm her and ask for her discipline thoughts if she doesn't post.

 

in exacerbation, it is helpful for me to think of him as younger - not so much to relax my expectations, but to treat him as such. such as time out like you would do for a 3 year old --- his brain is working as such, so i don't need to excuse the behavior, but more treat him in a way that works better for his brain.

 

just some ideas of what seems to work for us.

 

above all -- i believe in the medical help -- but also just so very much needed coping mechanisms to keep my sanity and better functioning of our entire household.

 

yes, it is hard and unfair! i wish you luck.

Edited June 26, 2013 by smartyjones

[dcmom]

Hi Lisa- It sounds to me like you are doing all the right things. I disagree with pr40 that language and disrespectful behavior should be acommodated, ocd or not. It is a very dark road to go down, at the end of it you will not recognize the family you had- we have been there.

 

While at USF we spoke about this issue a lot. We were taught, and now try our best to practice, maintaining age appropriate expectations. This goes for behavior as well as responsibilities. For behavior, we use the "time out" procedure. If our kids misbehave, they receive a 4 minute time out immediately. We do not escort them to their time out, nor force them to take it, but simply they get nothing from anyone in the family until they do. Until they take their time out, no one speaks with them, they don't get food, driven anywhere, no computer, no tv, etc. They quickly learn to get the time out over with- and they also hate it. It is great, because we use it mostly instead of punishments such as "grounding". We, too, worry about depression, and ocd of not leaving the house- so we do not like to restrict activities that make them happy- however if needed, we will add a punishment to the time out.

 

I don't necessarily think time outs, or any consequence will work quickly on behavior due to impulse control (we are seeing a little of that now), however I think it is a long term solution. I think they need a combination of consistent consequences, and conversations on strategy of better decisions to make at the time of anger (like smarty said), along with continued medical intervention for pandas. I think with these three approaches, with time, your child will be able to meet appropriate expectations. It is not easy, that is for sure. It takes steady, patient and persistent and consistent parenting. The tone of the house does not need to be negative- just matter of fact- if you do this, there is a consequence. etc.

 

Good luck! Hang in there!

[lmkmip67]

Thanks, everyone! I am glad that others agree. I can not let those things go as they are things I feel very strongly about, respect, politeness, manners, etc. Yes, they flair and have times when they can not stick to the rules so to speak. But I want him to get the message loud and clear that these behaviors are not acceptable. We may keep battling them, but at least the message will be there. I like the idea of the timeouts and they don't get anything until they take it. That could work really great instead of threatening more time if he has to be escorted. Great idea! I think that could work well here with Ian. It is simple but also gives him some owner ship of following through with the punishment. I do hate taking away things all the time. Well, screens not so much. lol It is a work in progress. THanks so much for the support and I will look up some of those posts!

[EAMom]

Hi, I haven't read all the comments...

 

but re Hrosenkrantz's kid:

 

"I'm interested in the responses to this. Our son is a week and a half post IVIG and he is behaving so naughty -- doing things like grabbing a container of milk and dumping it on the floor and laughing, behaviour that is not acceptable,"

 

I just need to say with recent IVIG, your kid's brain is being bombarded by those IVIG antibodies right now. He is going through "turning back the pages". He will get old symptoms and new symptoms. This really isn't something within his control! Remain calm, this will pass. IMHO he cannot be held accountable for his behaviors right now. I think it's fine to let him know his behavior is unacceptable, but I wouldn't take away privileges or punish or hold it against him in anyway. Just do whatever you can do to keep him calm and let him relax, keep stress down, during the next couple of weeks.

[JoyBop]

I can totally identify with your dilemma and struggle with many if the same issues. (Not with swearing in particular but similar issues). My DS is obsessed with thinking about bad words and feeling guilty about it but can't shut it off. He doesn't use those wirds but can be disrespectful and naughty, almost seemingly deliberately. I have read the book that someone here mentioned called patenting your explosive child. (My apologies if its not but it sure looks similar) I have a hard time with the concept bc I don't believe that PANDAS kids (at least my own two) have predictable triggers and they do not have the ability to think rationally when they are raging. I also think that punishment and reward don't work, at least gotten own PANDAS kids. So what do we do? We are working with our psychiatrist and therapists to gone up with a behavioral plan. I will let you know what ends up working.

 

My question is, do you think these swear words are an obsession or compulsion? Many if our kids can control them with outsiders, but not from family. My kid has panic attacks at home but is able to stifle them in public for fear of being "figured out ". CBT should be helpful if so. Does he feel remorseful afterward? This would prove that he really did "want" to say those things but couldn't help it.

 

Some suggestions I have are 1- the bathroom time out doesn't seem to help and may actually make him more mad. Can you ask him to come up with a better place? Better yet, we do time ins. That is when you do a job or chore for the person you just hurt or offended. )it works for my kids better than fine outs) it gives them something positive to do immediately and makes everyone feel better The only time it doesn't work is when they are in a rage and out if sorts. Or give a choice if time in or out. Ex- 6 minutes in the chair or sort the silver wear from the dishwasher.

 

I feel your pain! Be sure to update us if you find what works!