Stimming

[colleendonny]

DS3 came down with a horrible groin area yeast infection last Saturday. He was on Augmentin at the time for a Pandas flare up, in which the symptom was stuttering again.

He was doing well on it, with some belly aches. Was, and still is, giving 1 capsule Sach B.

About 2 weeks into the augmentin is when the infection came.

We started topical nystatin, without improvement for 24 hours. Pedi also wanted him on Keflex, rather than augmentin. So we did and started on oral fluconazole (sp?) to fight the yeast and still topical nystatin. His infection is well now, though we are finishing up the fluconazole.

 

Starting @ the same time he started finger stimming. He arched his fingers and twists together the first two together and last two together. It's almost constant. Be woke up from a car nap hysterical yesterday, screaming at us to not touch him. Face was red he was screaming, crying and kicking for 15 minutes.

 

Does this sound like yeast overgrowth behavior? The stimming too?

 

He did well today at his first day of preschool

[LaurenK]

I thought that stimming was more associated with ASD than PANDAS specifically? Yeast only worsens original PANDAS symptoms for me.

[peglem]

My daughter did this when she had thyroid problems- it was not a stim, she was having problems with the muscles in her hands. And the red face (like a hot flash?) could also be thyroid related.

 

That being said, I'd sure like to know how people tell if something is a stim, a tic, or a compulsion. As far as I can tell, tics and compulsions are called stims if you're autistic...please, if anyone knows what sets a stim apart from those other things, let me know.

[thenmama]

Well, my take is that a stim (self-stimulatory behavior for those unfamiliar with the term- which does come from ASD) is done for a purpose: it has either a calming, soothing, regulating, or otherwise desirable effect. With tics, it's more like "an itch you have to scratch" feeling-- so the person isn't undertaking the behavior/action for the desirable effect it has on them, rather it is done to address the unwanted/uncomfortable feeling that makes them feel the need to do it. As far as compulsion vs. tic-- I think that's actually a harder distinction. But in my mind it's the more subtle difference between the not as deliberate "scratching the itch" (metaphor) behavior/action of a tic and a more intentional/aware/conscience behavior and action done because of a feeling/belief/urge that it must be done. I see a tic as sort of equivalent to all of the small behaviors/actions we might do on autopilot or that we're only semi-cognizant of-- things that our body does almost automatically b/c of an arising discomfort or sensation (and that might cause us discomfort if we didn't do it). A compulsion would stem from a more cognizant, purposeful impulse.

 

I don't really think it's that clearcut or easy to sort out, but that's my oversimplified way of looking at the differences.

[peglem]

Well, my take is that a stim (self-stimulatory behavior for those unfamiliar with the term- which does come from ASD) is done for a purpose: it has either a calming, soothing, regulating, or otherwise desirable effect. With tics, it's more like "an itch you have to scratch" feeling-- so the person isn't undertaking the behavior/action for the desirable effect it has on them, rather it is done to address the unwanted/uncomfortable feeling that makes them feel the need to do it. As far as compulsion vs. tic-- I think that's actually a harder distinction. But in my mind it's the more subtle difference between the not as deliberate "scratching the itch" (metaphor) behavior/action of a tic and a more intentional/aware/conscience behavior and action done because of a feeling/belief/urge that it must be done. I see a tic as sort of equivalent to all of the small behaviors/actions we might do on autopilot or that we're only semi-cognizant of-- things that our body does almost automatically b/c of an arising discomfort or sensation (and that might cause us discomfort if we didn't do it). A compulsion would stem from a more cognizant, purposeful impulse.

 

I don't really think it's that clearcut or easy to sort out, but that's my oversimplified way of looking at the differences.

Okay, that makes sense. I guess I'm over-sensitive about this sort of thing. It just seems like once the autism label is applied all behaviors/symptoms are interpreted through "autism colored lenses". That has caused a lot of frustration for us as docs will not look for the source of the problems- they are "normal" for autism. So many years we went without treatment...

And last year, when my daughter was having painful hand cramping to the point of being unable to use her hands, even to sign (condition resolved w/ thyroid treatment)- her teacher who is highly trained in all things autism, suggested that it was a stim. What an idjit!

Edited September 12, 2012 by peglem

[colleendonny]

My son does not have ASD, but Dr. B diagnosed him with pans. I would have never guessed, unless DD was diagnosed.

Can yeast overgrowth cause stims/ tics? I read and the readings suggest it could do so.

 

He is tsh is slightly, maybe hypothyroidism? How can this relate?

 

Thanks ladies!

[peglem]

My son does not have ASD, but Dr. B diagnosed him with pans. I would have never guessed, unless DD was diagnosed.

Can yeast overgrowth cause stims/ tics? I read and the readings suggest it could do so.

 

He is tsh is slightly, maybe hypothyroidism? How can this relate?

 

Thanks ladies!

In my experience, elevated TSH could be related. It was for us. Endo's seem to have differing opinions on whether elevated TSH alone is a problem, if T3 and T4 are in normal ranges. My daughter had elevated TSH for many years w/o the endo being concerned because her T3 and T4 were normal. But when we saw a different endo, who took the hand symptoms and autonomic symptoms seriously, and levothyroxin was rx'd, those symptoms resolved. My daughter did test positive for antithyroid antibodies at the time as well. I don't know if yeast overgrowth can cause thyroid probs or not, but it may be worth investigating thyroid function in your child.

 

Oh, sorry for going off on the autism tangent!

[Mayzoo]

My daughter's tics seem to happen on a subconscious level and she clearly cannot control or stop them, whereas stimming seems to be done consciously.

 

Not sure why this occurs, but here is an excert: "The thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) level should be measured in most patients, since tics often occur concomitantly with hyperthyroidism."

 

http://www.aafp.org/afp/1999/0415/p2263.html

 

The sentence right below that one is interesting as well:

 

"A throat culture should be checked for group A beta-hemolytic streptococcus, and an antistreptolysin-O (ASO) titer and levels of anti-DNAse B should be obtained in patients with a very rapid onset of symptoms or symptoms that appear to wax and wane with bouts of pharyngitis or otitis media. The correlation of microbiologic and serologic evidence of streptococcal infection with a single occurrence of tic exacerbation is insufficient to make a diagnosis of streptococcus-induced, autoimmune-caused Tourette's syndrome."

[kos_mom]

Mayzoo,

 

That is an amazing article, especially considering it was written in 1999--wish I'd had a pediatrician reading that back then when my DS was at his worst! And the TSH hyperthyroid piece really surprised me. I only heard of this yesterday from Dr. T, who said kids often get declining TSH hyperthyroid with Pandas--my DD's (19) TSH went from 2.0 in February to 0.9 in mid-July when she tested positive for strep to 0.4 (below normal range) the last week of August. The thalamus, which controls the pituitary and from there the thyroid is right next to the basal ganglia.

 

Last year DS's (then 21) doctor found a goiter right after he had strep (preceded by OCD). He sent him to an endocrinologist who suspected his low TSH was Hashimoto's then confirmed it four months later because the levels were going up. On his check over summer, the levels were up but still definitely in good normal range--if he had Hashimoto's doctor thinks they would have gone above normal range by that time. So he has rescinded Hashimoto's dx in favor of a rather nonspecific thyroiditis dx. Now I think it's all Pandas related and that DD has same phenomenon. Endo had never heard of Pandas of course.

 

KO's Mom

[Mayzoo]

A lot of somewhat anecdotal evidence to support a link between candidiasis (yeast overgrowth) and thyroid disease, but they do not seem to be sure which came first.

 

Here is the web search rather than just one site since it is mostly anecdotal links.

 

Google link

[mar]

This is all so interesting! For my ds yeast from what I have seen played a role. One he was on a yeast free diet his tics and overall behavior improved. He is 10 now and from when he was 7 getting yeast out helped.

Mar