Bioclean and Biobreeze

[red]

The dog has made on the carpet plenty of times, and then my kids, in an attempt to make sure they got all the pee up, added a whole bunch of 409, placed a towel over it, and left it (stayed wet for days!) Plus, the dogs before us had made all over the carpet that was downstairs that we eliminated already (although, it was obvious there were stains on the subfloor, there was no evidence of mold, luckily. But, my fear is that there may be mold on this carpet (even the dog scratches continuously when he's on it,and actually likes it...he rolls around on it...i think it feels good to him). I'm afraid that if I cut corners by getting the regular carpet guys to remove the carpet, they may release even more into the air.

 

On the other hand, I suppose I could get that removed first, then clean the ducts. The ducts are extremely packed with dust, and I'm sure, now, dry mold. We had the ducts cleaned last year, but I saw first hand the mess in the ducts when I had the a/c guys here the other day (they put a camera up the ducts.) I will call them, though, and ask how easy/difficult/impossible it would be to check the coils in the air handler,and get it cleaned out outside (it would have to be brought upstairs, and I'm sure the freon would have to be removed first. Not an easy process.

 

Mold test results are coming back on Tuesday, and he did test the a/c as well, so we'll see what that comes back as.

 

 

I agree, that all they had to do was properly block off the vent, and I intend to make sure they and insurance are well aware that they not only released mold and other toxins back into my entire house, but also poisoned us with who knows what in the cleaner they used. Short of suing them, I don't know what else to do at this time, unless they agree to pay for EVERYTHING (and I'm not so sure that the carpet is totally their fault.)

 

When the flooring guys come out tomorrow to give me a quote on putting down the hardwoods on the stairs, I'll ask them how carefully they removed the existing carpeting. Also, if they notice any mold, they will have to stop immediately, and I will get a mold guy out here. I don't want them putting down flooring on top of mold.

 

I will actually be out of town next weekend, and my son does not want to come with me, so he and his dad will probably stay in a hotel for a few days. But, I know that my DH cuts corners with stuff like that, and I won't be here to supervise it. So, I want to make sure that things go right the first time.

 

There are so many decisions to be made about all of this, and because we can't keep breathing in the bad air, I have to move quickly.

 

BTW...How are you feeling now?

Well I seem to be improving. I have stopped augmentin and low dose rifampin and am doing azithromycin plus TCM (traditional chinese medicine) herbs that I boil. I have an OMD (oriental medicine doctor) I see for acupuncture and herbs. I had not been seeing the OMD but after struggling severely with multiple antibiotics I thought about bringing an herbal protocol into process. A guy named Greg Lee who practices at Two Frogs http://www.twofrogscenter.com/ in Maryland put this TCM protocol on Goodbye Lyme Website.

http://goodbyelyme.com/free-articles/coinfections/busting-bartonella I asked my OMD to access the protocol. Now she has written a textbook on Chinese Herbs and practices and lectures internationally. So she knows it. She said that the protocol looked pretty good and needed to assess me. So we made up the first batch and boy did I herx big time. Way too big time. So I stopped and threw it away and she reformulated the herbs. I am now tolerating the herbs + azithro pretty well. Now I might still need to add rifampin or muycobutin to this later to get a total (hopefully) kill of the bart. Rifampin is a whole other animal because it is a major inducer of the CYP3A4 pathway. So that means many drugs, possibly up to 50% of all drugs are hyper-metabolized by Rifampin induction of CYP3A4. What that means is these other drugs (including azithro. are metabolized in the liver and never get into the blood stream. So rifampin is not something I want to mix right now due it both the severe herxing but also a problem with herbs. So right know I am trying to just get a slow kill that I can tolerate over a period of time. I have also added a broad spectrum of antioxidants that reduce NF-kappa B the main inflammatory protein produced by bart. For more on that see http://www.bu.edu/nf-kb/ and also for inhibitors of NF-kB see http://www.bu.edu/nf-kb/physiological-mediators/inhibitors/ I am not a believer in detoxing from bartonella. There is a lot of folklore out there and I think a lot of people are doing some pretty dangerous things without any scientific validity about detoxing: I think bentonite is or can be very dangerous and I cannot believe people are using this esp. on children. I think epsom salts at best produce analgesic benefits. In order for epsom salt to detox it has to cross the epidermal layer go into the blood stream and then come back out into the bath. There is no evidence the epson can do that. I believe you have to set the liver up to do its job and reduce inflammation as much as possible. I also have had my P450 cytochrome profile tested and I am an intermediate metabolizer of many drugs on the 2D6 and 2C19 pathways. Because I am an intermediate metabolizer that means a lot of drugs I need only a low dose of to reach a therapeutic effect. So I figure that has some interplay with my herxing events: most likely making them worse. My LLMD says I am the most sensitive bart patient she has ever had. So I have to tip toe threw the tulips as Tiny Tim sang.

This gene testing ( http://www.healthanddna.com/healthcare-professional/how-to-order.html )

has proven invaluable as I can cross reference drugs and remove and or reduce the possibility of drug interactions. The program has some herbs in it also so that is a big plus.

Now when it comes to mold, detoxing with Cholestyramine makes perfect scientific sense and Shoemaker has proven that. And I can also say that it worked extremely well on me and my wife. But I have tried CSM for bart and it has not touched it. That is because I believe bart and die off from bart is not found in cholesterol like mold. Whereas mold is fat soluble and loves cholesterol and brain tissue which is full of fat mold. There are some things that help promote phagocytosis which is the most important part of detox. But there are some side effects that I am personally a little wary of. The one that I would like to try is Siberian ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus) promotes phagocytosis. I have it sitting here but seeing that I have had a heart ablation (mold+ later bart) for atrial flutter I am a little concerned about taking this at least at full strength because it can cause heart arrhythmia. Now Greg Lee has another good piece about protecting the heart with TCM herbs @ http://goodbyelyme.com/free-articles/healing-pain/heart-herbs So I might talk to my OMD about this later. I do not want to add to much at one time. Just bart by itself is complex enough. It makes mold look like a picnic to me.

I still think your carpet is not as important as your air handler and coils. There are ways of cleaning the coils without removing them. Maybe not as good as removing the coils but at least you can get most of it plus you clean the unit around the coils. If your duct work is as bad as you say it is then the coils are screwed also as well as the box that contains the coils. Is there any difference in how your return air ducts look vs. your supply air ducts? Supply side is the air ducts that are blowing air and the return side is where the air is being sucked back into the system. If you insist on doing the carpets a certain way (plastic and rolling) and are present to make sure of it done correctly then you are ahead of the game. Wear a full P100+ voc respirator that you can buy at your big box store and stand there to make sure it is done correctly. To make sure you are getting a good seal put rubbing alcohol on your hand and just pass your hand around the respirator. If you smell the rubbing alcohol then the respirator is not sealing against your face properly.

Red

Edited August 26, 2012 by red

[tpotter]

Thank you for all the info. I thought you said, though that you didn't have lyme (I guess you aren't including bart in that, but I consider that a co-infection. DS16 has bart, babesia, and erlichiosis, and we've been treating for that for 2 years now. I have bart, and both of us have been taking rifampin for about 1/2 a year now. Plus I take azith (2 years), because of mycoP, and he takes tindamax (we pulse the rifampin and tindamax, and his stretch marks are fading very nicely.

 

But, I have a question for you about the cholestyramine. Our LLMD put us both on it, and then I was reading, and found it can cause bone loss. I have osteoporosis (in my back) and osteopenia in my hip. The last thing I want is to get more bone loss, and I'm very fearful of causing it in my son. What are your thoughts on that?

 

I have done accupuncture, and got incredible results for my mycoP...I was 100%, and it was an absolutely aamzing feeling. I've tried chinese herbs, but didn't get such amazing results, but they helped a little. I have heard, though that chinese herbs can contain a lot of mercury and other hard metals (our chiropractor who actually has used them herself.) Any thoughts on that?

 

OK...we are getting the air handler cleaned. I talked to the a/c guy yesterday, and he said he can clean it in the basement (was hesitant to clean it at all with only 1 year on it, but when I told him how botched up the bathroom remediation was, he instantly agreed.) But, he wants to use the chemicals to do it. I've researched this, too, and found a site (now I can't replicate the site), but it gave pros and cons of each method. Unfortunately, I don't necessarily know what's in the stuff, because they said that these chemicals can have some pretty harsh stuff in it, but they don't have to disclose everything, because it's proprietary. My husband is very much against cutting the freon line, draining the freon (or whatever they've replaced it with these days), to take it outside. So, I'm stuck with having it cleaned inside. These a/c guys have 50+ years experience between the 2 of them, and they really do seem to understand the necessity of getting this right.

 

I may just do what you are suggesting with the carpet. It means taking off another day of work (I have to get ds to the doctor on Thursday after attending a business meeting in the a.m., so it would have to be Wednesday, if the carpet people can even do that.) There's so much to do with so little time. I want them to go ahead and put the new flooring down right afterwards, so we can walk on it (we only have bathrooms upstairs now, because the one downstairs is still in contention.) I was going to have DH supervise the whole thing, but I don't think he really understands how it needs to be done. Personally, I wanted to be as far away as possible.

 

I have actually made up a list of how DS and I were before everything started, after the initial assault (handiman's bad removal), and then how much worse everything got for both of us after the botched remediation.)

 

Anyway, I just noticed the time, and have to run. Do you think the mold is out of you, or are you still fighting that?

 

Thanks for all the grest suggestions.

[red]

Thank you for all the info. I thought you said, though that you didn't have lyme (I guess you aren't including bart in that, but I consider that a co-infection. DS16 has bart, babesia, and erlichiosis, and we've been treating for that for 2 years now. I have bart, and both of us have been taking rifampin for about 1/2 a year now. Plus I take azith (2 years), because of mycoP, and he takes tindamax (we pulse the rifampin and tindamax, and his stretch marks are fading very nicely.

 

But, I have a question for you about the cholestyramine. Our LLMD put us both on it, and then I was reading, and found it can cause bone loss. I have osteoporosis (in my back) and osteopenia in my hip. The last thing I want is to get more bone loss, and I'm very fearful of causing it in my son. What are your thoughts on that?

 

I have done accupuncture, and got incredible results for my mycoP...I was 100%, and it was an absolutely aamzing feeling. I've tried chinese herbs, but didn't get such amazing results, but they helped a little. I have heard, though that chinese herbs can contain a lot of mercury and other hard metals (our chiropractor who actually has used them herself.) Any thoughts on that?

 

OK...we are getting the air handler cleaned. I talked to the a/c guy yesterday, and he said he can clean it in the basement (was hesitant to clean it at all with only 1 year on it, but when I told him how botched up the bathroom remediation was, he instantly agreed.) But, he wants to use the chemicals to do it. I've researched this, too, and found a site (now I can't replicate the site), but it gave pros and cons of each method. Unfortunately, I don't necessarily know what's in the stuff, because they said that these chemicals can have some pretty harsh stuff in it, but they don't have to disclose everything, because it's proprietary. My husband is very much against cutting the freon line, draining the freon (or whatever they've replaced it with these days), to take it outside. So, I'm stuck with having it cleaned inside. These a/c guys have 50+ years experience between the 2 of them, and they really do seem to understand the necessity of getting this right.

 

I may just do what you are suggesting with the carpet. It means taking off another day of work (I have to get ds to the doctor on Thursday after attending a business meeting in the a.m., so it would have to be Wednesday, if the carpet people can even do that.) There's so much to do with so little time. I want them to go ahead and put the new flooring down right afterwards, so we can walk on it (we only have bathrooms upstairs now, because the one downstairs is still in contention.) I was going to have DH supervise the whole thing, but I don't think he really understands how it needs to be done. Personally, I wanted to be as far away as possible.

 

I have actually made up a list of how DS and I were before everything started, after the initial assault (handiman's bad removal), and then how much worse everything got for both of us after the botched remediation.)

 

Anyway, I just noticed the time, and have to run. Do you think the mold is out of you, or are you still fighting that?

 

Thanks for all the grest suggestions.

Yes mold is out of my life although I have had two exposures since I had radiation in 2008. Both exposures were about 2 weeks long. Kind of bizarre as both were in my lab/shop. I had a leak in a window a/c unit that got a bench wet while I was away for radiation. And when I went back to work I thought my shop smelled from mouse urine ( I was gone for 3 summer months) but it was this bench. So I got moldy as we say and figured out it was the bench. After having the bench removed and then completely disassembling and cleaning and fogging the shop and CSM for a couple of weeks I recovered. Now can you imagine that I was barely able to work 2-3 hours a day as a result of radiation/hormone therapy and unbeknown to me at that time bartonlla and I take a major mold hit on top of all that? I thought I was going friggen crazy. Then 2 years later of all things I had mold growing on the outside of the metal shop door and I did not notice it. It had been a very wet warm spring. I kept complaining to my wife that I was feeling moldy and a few days later she said look at your shop door. Imagine every time I opened the door spores just flew into my face!! So I cleaned it and CSM for a few weeks and I was fine. As far as our house is concerned it is drop dead clean. Details details and more details but it is clean.

I do not have Lyme. Virtually every single test says so including good CD 57 lymphs. I only put that link to the TCM for Lyme heart issues because that TCM heart protocol can also be used for bart and mold. As for bartonella being a co-infection I would say it stands on its own. Dr. Breitchwerdt's work at NCSU vet school has proved that bart is a stand alone infectious disease and that it can cause an awful lot of symptoms. He has also proved that false negative titers for bart are very common. I have read over 100 of his scientific papers on bart. His father even died from bart!! It is a compelling story. "A Groundhog, a Novel Bartonella Sequence, and My Father’s Death". http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/15/12/ad-1512_article.htm In fact I have discussed this with a couple of LLMD docs and the belief is beginning to slowly take hold that bartonella is a much larger problem than most LLMDs recognize. In fact during these conversations these docs said the a lot of bart is misdiagnosed as Lyme. My LLMD automatically treats all Lyme+ patients for bart as she thinks bart is way under diagnosed. I even had my border collie tested to make sure we were not giving it back and forth to each other (want a paper on dogs and bart? I can send it). He had been licking his joints a lot over the winter and I was concerned he had Lyme or bart. I put him on a diet and he lost 8# and his joints feel a whole lot better.

As for osteoporosis and CSM I cannot say. CSM does remove Vit D from the body so I think it very important to either supplement and or test for D levels. I keep my D levels high to protect for prostate cancer. Another thing to remember about CSM is that it is a temporary medicine. Also many people with mold have loose stools just like IBS. If you are not digesting and absorbing your food as a result of IBS then that actually contributes to osteoporosis. CSM shuts down IBS.

As for your a/c guys with 50 years experience that is meaningless as they do not know a thing about mold. Clueless is clueless. They are a/c guys not mold guys. They would not know mold if they saw it. Heck most mold remediators do not get it. Many literally take a weekend course claim expertise. The field is not regulated in most states. They may say your coils look fine when in fact the fins could be covered in microscopic mold spores. To them a little dust is a little dust. I know the duct work guys are going to run the air through a HEPA filter but make sure they then VENT THE AIR COMING OUT OF THEIR HEPA MACHINE OUT A WINDOW OF THE HOUSE. I have been their and done that. They are going to stir up a hornets nest with brushing and air flow. Even HEPA air filters do not contain all mold spores. We had a new HVAC system installed but because some of the remaining supply side ducts were in a finished bedroom basement ceiling we short cut the process and just "cleaned" about 30 feet of metal duct work instead of tearing the ceiling out. Now this was supply side (air flowing out of HVAC system and into house) duct work. Anyhow they promised they would vent the vacuum cleaner air out the basement window even though the vacuum cleaner had HEPA filtration. I knew it would not contain all of the mold especially because of the high pressures they use. So we left and came home afterwards. And within 30 minutes my wife and I were drop dead moldy sick. I called the owner and low and behold he said that yes they did NOT vent outside the window like we agreed to. He then argued with me that what little mold did make it through the HEPA filters was not enough to make us sick. He even emailed me before and after pictures. And it was quite obvious to me that even in the after pictures there were small spots throughout the 30' duct that had not been cleaned. So a huge argument ensued and he refunded some money and I had to clean the basement area that they screwed up. And all this from a mold remediation company that also does duct work. THat is just one brief story of many screw ups we experienced during remediation. We eventually said screw it and took money out of retirement and gutted our house to the core and remodeled it using all green materials including sheet rock and insulation that cannot grow mold. That paid for itself the first winter we were back in the house and I was horrified to see fresh water stains on my brand new sheet rock. Well the chimney had a minor crack and leaked in a torrential rain. So I went up on the roof and slabbered tar on every crack I could find. It stopped the leak but most of all I knew everything was sealed and the special insulation and sheet rock was not going to grow mold!! We also sealed all interior wood with ForSite a paint with silver in it. Mold cannot grow through or on this silver paint. If you want horror stories I am full of them: even the HCAC guys screwed up the installation of the whole house HEPA filtration system. Good thing I figured it out fast. Phew and that is the short version.

Mercury in Chinese herbs. Well we are all aware of some of the nasty products coming out of China. Mostly what I have heard is that some refined herbs may be contaminated. But I have to trust my OMD. She is extremely careful about her sources for fresh natural herbs (non-refined/processed). I have talked to her about it so I am putting my trust in her.

Red

Edited August 27, 2012 by red

[tpotter]

OK. Great suggestions. Now for the toughie. How would you suggest venting through a window that doesn't open? Neither of our windows in the basement open. Do they tend to have long hoses that they can bring up and out of the house?

 

And, back to the original question. Would you suggest using the cleaning agents they are talking about using? I can't imagine just brushing it clean will get everything out. Even if the air tests "negative" for mold, I know for sure that the black mold that was in the bathroom was cleaned without the vent being properly covered (they used aluminum foil, and every time the a/c came on, the tape didn't hold, so everything they stirred up (including whatever they used to clean the floors, which seriously stunk) was sucked into the ducts, and spread all over the house.

[red]

OK. Great suggestions. Now for the toughie. How would you suggest venting through a window that doesn't open? Neither of our windows in the basement open. Do they tend to have long hoses that they can bring up and out of the house?

 

And, back to the original question. Would you suggest using the cleaning agents they are talking about using? I can't imagine just brushing it clean will get everything out. Even if the air tests "negative" for mold, I know for sure that the black mold that was in the bathroom was cleaned without the vent being properly covered (they used aluminum foil, and every time the a/c came on, the tape didn't hold, so everything they stirred up (including whatever they used to clean the floors, which seriously stunk) was sucked into the ducts, and spread all over the house.

Ouch no windows that open? Are the duct work guys working in the basement or just the a/c guys? How about a dryer vent? Is that an option.

As for the cleaning product I am clueless but remember the coil sits in a pan and the pan which collects water during dehumidifying has a drain to the outside. It has to drain somewhere so after they clean it they can also use mild soapy water and rinse and rinse with clean water it until all the product is gone.

But the vent guys have to vent it outside somehow.

Now some vent cleaners are set up so there vacuum systems are on the truck outside and all they do is come in with long hoses and it all gets suck through the huge vacuum machine on the truck. Otherwise?

Red.

Edited August 27, 2012 by red

[tpotter]

A/C guys are the ductwork guys (they do both,)and yes, much is in the basement. The washer and dryer are not in the basement. My hope is that while cleaning, they will find the original reason we had them here...why the smell from the basement keeps coming up through the ducts. Maybe I can open all windows and doors to the house as a whole, and set up our hepa filter that has been running upstairs the whole time, so we have even another source of filtering. Not perfect, but it might be the only option. Afterwards, we are having the whole house cleaned completely (I'm even having the unfinished basement cleaned.)

[red]

A/C guys are the ductwork guys (they do both,)and yes, much is in the basement. The washer and dryer are not in the basement. My hope is that while cleaning, they will find the original reason we had them here...why the smell from the basement keeps coming up through the ducts. Maybe I can open all windows and doors to the house as a whole, and set up our hepa filter that has been running upstairs the whole time, so we have even another source of filtering. Not perfect, but it might be the only option. Afterwards, we are having the whole house cleaned completely (I'm even having the unfinished basement cleaned.)

I hope you are correct. It seems to me that if the VOC smell is on their when HVAC is on then the HVAC is very suspect. Now if they were the ones who installed it will the be honest enough to admit that guess what we screwed up and the whole thing is backed moldy water in the drain pan.

They will undoubtedly show up with a shop vac with a standard filter in it. It will nowhere be near HEPA standards. Ask them if they have a HEPA filter for their shop vac.

good luck.

IT is a freaking awful experience isn't it?

Red

[red]

A/C guys are the ductwork guys (they do both,)and yes, much is in the basement. The washer and dryer are not in the basement. My hope is that while cleaning, they will find the original reason we had them here...why the smell from the basement keeps coming up through the ducts. Maybe I can open all windows and doors to the house as a whole, and set up our hepa filter that has been running upstairs the whole time, so we have even another source of filtering. Not perfect, but it might be the only option. Afterwards, we are having the whole house cleaned completely (I'm even having the unfinished basement cleaned.)

I hope you are correct. It seems to me that if the VOC smell is on their when HVAC is on then the HVAC is very suspect. Now if they were the ones who installed it will the be honest enough to admit that guess what we screwed up and the whole thing is backed moldy water in the drain pan.

They will undoubtedly show up with a shop vac with a standard filter in it. It will nowhere be near HEPA standards. Ask them if they have a HEPA filter for their shop vac.

good luck.

IT is a freaking awful experience isn't it?

Red

[tpotter]

Yes...definitely a freaking awful experience...but at least I know what is going on, vs. when my kids first got sick, and it took, literally YEARS to get any kind of dx (until then, the docs tried to claim one of them had "conversion disorder" (despite seizures, chorea, tics, massive OCD, anxiety, and even scarlet fever with a 104 fever that landed him in the hospital with what they thought was ARF!) The other was dx with Asperger's, and all these years later, it's clear that the Asperger's was, basically infection and environmentally triggered (got tremendously better with heavy duty tx.)

 

We're using a different company than the one that put in the new a/c. Actually, I don't think the smell is necessarily from the a/c or, at least from improper installation. We were having the problem with the old unit still in, and I really think there's a great big hole in the intake ductwork that they are having trouble seeing through all the dirt.

 

Oh, and the good news is, that DS said the basement windows do open...just difficult to do!

 

I'll let you know how it all goes. Looks like the flooring guys may not be able to get to it this week, which means everything gets put off until the end of next week, due to the holidays. I'll hear tomorrow what the air samples come back as.

[red]

Yes...definitely a freaking awful experience...but at least I know what is going on, vs. when my kids first got sick, and it took, literally YEARS to get any kind of dx (until then, the docs tried to claim one of them had "conversion disorder" (despite seizures, chorea, tics, massive OCD, anxiety, and even scarlet fever with a 104 fever that landed him in the hospital with what they thought was ARF!) The other was dx with Asperger's, and all these years later, it's clear that the Asperger's was, basically infection and environmentally triggered (got tremendously better with heavy duty tx.)

 

We're using a different company than the one that put in the new a/c. Actually, I don't think the smell is necessarily from the a/c or, at least from improper installation. We were having the problem with the old unit still in, and I really think there's a great big hole in the intake ductwork that they are having trouble seeing through all the dirt.

 

Oh, and the good news is, that DS said the basement windows do open...just difficult to do!

 

I'll let you know how it all goes. Looks like the flooring guys may not be able to get to it this week, which means everything gets put off until the end of next week, due to the holidays. I'll hear tomorrow what the air samples come back as.

So if the source of the VOCs is not in the A/C unit then you have some sleuthing to do. There is somewhere where mold is growing and giving off VOCs hence the mildew/moldy smell. Why clean the house until you find the source and remove it? All you are going to do is end up with the same problem. It is like a cavity in your tooth.

Red