What could this be?

[mar]

Sorry for asking all these questions. Even though I kind of know what it is it's nice to hear back that others are dealing with this and I have the confirmation that I am right. Anyway, here we go . This I something I have noticed in ds for years. Everything I say is taken literally. Back in first grade he told a boy who never brought a sandwich to school that he will die if he does not eat. The boy would only have chips and candy. That boy came to school the next day with a sandwich. I said why did you say that and he says you say that you have to eat and you can't live off of junk. That you need good healthy meals to stay strong. So today we are in the neighbors yard and ds whips a wuffle ball right at his friends side two feet away. The boy is crying because it hurt especially since they have no shirts on . I'm like why would you do that and he said he did it to me and shows me the red mark on his side. Of course I was upset b/c this boys dad is standing in the kitchen and his son is crying b/c of my son . So my son is like you always said to fight back if someone messes with you . He is standing by me for five minutes saying that is what you always say so why are you mad at me. He would not give in and whisper you are confusing me you told me to do that if someone hits me. He is giving me dirty looks the whole time and saying that's what you tell me to do. I think he felt bad and he's blaming it on me . So I'm all quiet trying to ignore him but when we get home I'm like what the heck was that. I tell him yes I have said if anyone messes with you and hits you then fight back. Basically never throw the first punch. That you should always Stand up for yourself. Teaching and talking about bullies. so I go to tell him that you are in a yard with 2 adults and you are playing with your friend and if he whipped the ball at you that's different. Come over and say something don't whip it back. He said you never told me that. That I am confusing him. I think it's common sense. He says you always tell me to fight back if anyone messes with me. Basically my kids take everything j say literally. Like dd would get new pajamas every day and she was out and I say you could wear the same ones for a couple of days b/c she said I wore them lady night. So now if I'm like just put those on she says I wore them two times and you said a couple of days and that is two times and I can't wear them again. So for the past year I am like whatever to everything. I am trying to be very vague and not be so specific b/c follow certain things to the t. So what could this be and have any of you experienced this.

Mar

 

 

 

G

[911RN]

My son takes things very literally also- why, I don't know???!!! I think some of it could be related to obsessive, compulsive type thinking in a sense- their brain is stuck and soooo remember everything you say! As you said, you must be careful with explanations. My son will verbatim quote something I have said months or years ago that I did not intend for it to have such a lasting impact. But, I guess the way their brains operate- very insignificant things in out view take on a whole new realm for them. It's like they latch onto something to make sense of the universe and h#ll or highwater won't change it.That's a subtle form of the OCD, I think. The fact that our children often think we walk on water doesn't help either. My son is my biggest fan However, it is important at times to remind him that I make mistakes, I'm not perfect and that not everything I say is gospel. There may be times when folks disagree or have a better way of doing things than what I have suggested. As humbling and hard is that is to do!!

[bulldog24]

no. But hey I say if the other kid whipped the ball on purpose(not just that the kid hit the ball and it accidentally landed on him) at your son the other kid deserved it. I teach my kids to standup for themselves as well. I wouldnot have had major worry about that. That is just me though.

[MomWithOCDSon]

My son, too, is a "literalist," though that is loosening up a bit with maturation and improved health.

 

I think 911RN is right, that this is a piece of the obsessive compulsive component of PANDAS/PANS behavior sets; it also could be a grain of what some people witness in their P's kids as sort of an Asperger-ish quality, this sort of unwavering focus on the particulars of a situation or a statement, an insistence that life is "black and white," rather than the various shades of gray most of us witness it to be.

 

Again, this has downshifted considerably over the last few years, but he'll still retreat to taking things literally at times, especially if that line of thinking agrees with his own or services some situation in which he currently finds himself. Like 911RN, I would have some honest discussions with your DS about the subtleties and nuances of language, of intent. Of the importance of applying on-the-spot powers of judgement to any situation in which he may find himself, etc.

 

One of the things our DS's therapist has taught us is that, when it's not a life-or-death situation and DS is seeking some level of certainty or "finiteness" about a given situation, or clarification of a statement, that we should waffle on purpose; refuse to feed his unrelenting need for certainty, perfection or black & white line drawing. So we say, "Might be, but then again, it might not be," and "What do YOU think she meant when she said that?" and "Well, I might have meant that I want you to do that, but I might have meant that you can do it if YOU think it's a good thing to do," etc. Yes, responding to him that way can be provacative at times and rev him up a bit. But in the end, it seems to have served him well in that he's learning to be more flexible in his thinking all the way 'round.

 

Good luck! Sounds as though you're catching this relatively young, so he'll learn and downshift over time, especially if you can help him see both sides of the coin as often as possible!

[rowingmom]

I think this is one of the characteristics of children on the AS, especially high functioning - like Aspergers. Everything is taken literally, amazing memory especially for things that interest them. Before treatment for lyme/bart (but I imagine this might apply to any infection effecting the brain) DD10 was Dx with Aspergers. She did take everything literally, had problems using common sense in different situations, and for that reason had trouble properly interacting with peers. Shortly after beginning treatment for bartonella (which can cause psych symptoms) her Aspergers seemed to fade away. One abx (biaxin for lyme) did not have the same effect, she seemed to need the second (rifampin). Her OCD (repeatedly drawing the same picture many times a day) faded away as well. She interacted properly with and was able to make friends with peers. She understood subtleties in body language and voice and was able to differentiate sarcasm, where before this had been almost impossible (had to be careful about how we said things to her because they would be taken literally and she would often be offended).

 

We started pulsing tindamax 3 weeks ago on the weekends and I have been charting her symptoms. They ramp up for a couple of days while on the third abx but then resolve gradually during the rest of the week (looks like a herx reaction to me). This applies to both her physical (shin pain, motor/vocal tics) and psych (aspergerish, OCD) symptoms. Early in the week, just after tindamax she has trouble with taking things literally, trouble interacting with peers (she will spend recess by herself reading books), but by the end of the week she is more neurotypical and having no problem with sarcasm etc. These cycles appear to be flattening out over time, and she isn't having the extreme reactions to tindamax that she first had.

 

To me the correlation of brain inflammation (whatever the cause - herx reactions, autoimmune reactions, infection) with her OCD/aspergers behaviours is obvious. Before she was Dx with lyme/bart these behaviours would flare with first strep (she was Dx with PANDAS - but not by a specialist - before lyme) and then viral infections as well. Whether they are caused by her lyme/bart infection or by a PITANDS reaction to it, I don't know. Has to make you wonder about the theory of autism being caused by infection of some sort, or perhaps the child's inability to mount a proper immune response to it, or an inability to detox due to a methylation blockage.

Edited May 29, 2012 by rowingmom

[smartyjones]

i am not sure how old your son is, but what you describe is similar to what we see in my ds7. i'll tell you some of my thoughts based on our experience. . . we have recently had cognitive testing on him and he is quite textbook 2E - twice exceptional meaning he has high levels of processing and lower levels. he has always had a fabulous "puzzle mind". part of this profile is a literal take on things. i think that is his mind - regardless of pandas. i am unsure if the lower levels are "caused" by pandas - it's in the area of working memory, so i think it could be, but could also just be him. so, i think he tends toward the literal anyway.

we see a big step up in this during an exacerbation. i think for him it's like it gets magnified in an exacerbation. i agree it's likely OCD processing also b/c ds tends toward "just right" OCD. so i think it's like he's close to the edge anyway in personality but can function fairly well but an exacerbation pushes him over the edge.

 

i've just become aware of what i think is a fabulous program called "Social Thinking". do a web search -- it's ALOT of info -- if you can't find it, let me know.

 

ds also does things like in a restaurant loudly telling dh, "you LIED, you're a LIAR. LIAR, LIAR. " b/c something wasn't as precise as he had first stated. we've had the most success with first agreeing with ds that yes, he is correct that it is not as first said, and then working on the appropriate way to discuss it and state his point. it's just much more successful for ds to be available to understand if we first validate his thoughts rather than when we first addressed how he was behaving -- that just seemed to solidify the brick wall and resulted in everyone being frustrated.

 

we've made a code word for when he does this with friends -- like arguing that the truck of one neighbor's dad is NOT a monster truck, it's jsut a regular truck when they like to call it a monster truck. he does understand that people don't like to be corrected and won't want to play with him if he does it all the time -- so he can get that he has to chose what's his priority -- being correct or playing with the kids. so i will say to him "YAC, YaDHaTS" -- "you are correct, you don't have to say". this seems to satisfy him and he can move on. if the kids keep calling it a monster truck, he digs his heels in; if i discuss blah, blah, blah - you're annoying the kids, etc, he digs his heels in. if needed, later, not in the immediate situation, we can have a much more productive conversation and discuss strategies for next time.

 

this is something that seems to be better and worse according to exacerbation.

 

i may have read in another post about your dh - ? - a common symptom in 2E is "won't take academic risks, takes risks in other situations". at times, i've wondered if ds would make a good stunt man. we went skiing for the first time this year - he was stunning - i wish we lived in a area where i could put him in olympic training! -- it's all balance and perspective -- right?!

 

edit -- just read roving mom -- yes, common sense is an issue -- actually comes out in ds's cognitive profile (one of things i question 'caused' by infection) -- i think that is a big part in his reations and behaviors to what he takes literally

Edited May 29, 2012 by smartyjones

[Missmom]

My son takes everything literally as well, like because a tube of toothpaste says call poison controll if swallowed then he is afraid that he is being poisoned if he swallows a drop of toothpaste. He needs reassurance that he is going to be fine. I tell him that that label indicates it can be dangerous if you just eat a whole tube of toothpaste like candy, but swallowing a little bit when you brush your teeth is not harmful. Then he asks how much is harmful. I tell him to stop worrying. Just one example.. I think it is related to the OCD. I am trying to teach him to reason with himself, and I say when he asks again and again for reassurance, "what do you think?". My son has always been a strict rule follower as well and he quickly reminds me if I am breaking a rule. Ughhhhh.

[mar]

Thanks for all the replies!! I feel like some of the replies just told my story. I often felt like my kids think I walk on water. it was kind of creepy I was afraid of making a move but over the years I have been pointing out my mistakes and acknowledging when I'm wrong and it has helped. I have been saying that no one is perfect and we all make mistakes along the way. we all have fears and things that bother us. At one point I sad maybe I'm add who knows. He says no your not. I tell him I'm always moving and who cares if it is or not. I tend to be sarcastic and ds used to not get it now he does it to me all the time which puts a smile on my face:) Well I guess the kid did throw the ball at him they were playing a game of throwing the ball at each other. My son unfortunately threw it too hard and we had to be there to see it. Ds didn't complain when he got hit but he retailiated and the other child cryed. I resently wanted to paint the laundry room door that leads to the garage. It was filthy and I usually don't do this but tell DH you have paint in basement right. He says your seriously doing this now (he always plans out his projects and everything has to be just right and set up) I say yes and go get the paint myself. I can tell I am starting to annoy him slightly but the kids are getting a kick out of it. so I grab a roller and go to town. They are laughing at me saying that maybe that is my calling. Of course DH is pointing at spots I missed and I tell them to back off trying to hummer them. So of course when I'm done DH says ther are marks you could in the light I say it's good and no one is perfect. Ds is laughing and agreeing with his dad. I tell them sometimes who just have to try and who cares if it's not perfect the door looks a lot better. This is just another lesson for my kids to not be afraid to do something and that things do not have to be perfect. Now I am starting to think this is obsessive compulsive and defiantly not AS. I believe my neighbors child has had this since the age of 2. Was not potty trained till 5, could not ride a two wheeler till about 8. Completely has no age appropriate social skills and could recite a book I. A heartbeat word for word. Ds was raised and played with him till about the age of 8. I so much wanted to say something to the mother but couldn't do it because she acted like he was fine. They questioned his spacey ness and lack of social skills and she would come to me and say how can they say this when he plays with your son just fine. I just bit my lip b/c he did not play with son just fine. Most of the time he was talking to me or admiring dd who was 2 and the neighbor would play ball and do fun stuff with ds. I can't tell you how many times ds ran into the house saying I always do everything for him but he will never play what I want and he keeps calling dd a "he" and it would drive him crazy. I always new this child had issues and would always made ds just be nice and go along with it. I understood my ds frustration and now even more b/c of the issues he has that I was not aware of at the time. But this neighbor would always start playing with ds or dd when her child was constantly giving me attention and wanted to recite his many stories. I was not able to play with my kids b/c I felt bad for him. Anyway ds ended up having him in his class in third grade. So at this point this was 9-10 months into finding out about ds allergies and tics and all other issues. So my stress was real high and ds was going through a lot also with his diet and all other issues. The year did not go do well for ds. The neighbor was always involved with the school. Ds would come home saying that she stares at him during recess and tries to sent her son towards my ds. But he will not play just wants to talk and my ds is very active and all over. This is when dd started questioning about the neighbor. "monmouth he runs up to the teachers desk to talk to her and he will never sit or lay on carpet to read eith the kids. Then they constantly sat him next to ds b/c he did better. Ds would tell me that during tests he would Tap him and tell him to do his work because he would be staring at the ceiling. So they figured out that if he was by ds he would perform better. But I noticed ds getting Burnt out. Once again the mother would be staring at ds during recess when her son would just stand next to her. Ds would tell me he feels like he is constantly being watched. I told him to ignore her and go along playing. Then at one point I remember her saying that a lunch room lady said to her my son seems very stressed like he has axiety. I told her really. I was like j just need to get him though the year and told him not to worry about neighbor looking at you and don't worry about their son he will get by fine without your constant help. I could not wait for the year to be over. I think I have mentioned this before but ds got the spitting tick that spring/summer. The neighbers dad kept looking at ds in disgust and telling him to stop. I knew that ds couldn't do it would upset me especially how considerate I have been with their ds. I was actually shocked that he was treating him like this. Another neighbors son started spitting also with my son. One day I am sitting by my garage eith this mother and get husband comes home from work and runs to my house pointing fingers and saying one of you spit in the garage!!! Who was it !! I know my son never did it in our garaged bug the other neighbors kid does it but his parents weren't there. Ds said it wasn't me. The other little boy who was 5 looked scared with no one there to back him up . That was my breaking point I guess. I know the 5 year old did it but had no backup. I could not take it anymore I told ds right there and then to no longer go on there driveway and to stay away from the house. I was sick of it because he would complain when Ds did it at my house or on the street. I felt like worry about your own kid and leave mine alone. Talk about OCD. Within that week their son keeps telling my son the spitting is disgusting and gross. My son told hom he does not want to play with him b/c obviously he cannot stop spitting and he is sick of hearing it. I am inside doing the books for DH business and the mom is nocking at my door all flustered I tell her i am busy. I just can't deal with this b/c I have so much more that I am trying to figure out and deal with like dd now with her symptoms at the time. My head and brain was in overtime!!! So then I find out from ds that the neighbor told him to come sit with her on the front porch as she lectured him to be nice to her ds and that her ds is trying hard to do the things that my ds is interested in and to give him a chance. One again I was upset b/c you do not pull an 8 year old out a group of kids and lecture him. Really you are completely stressing him out. You are pressuring him to play with your child when they have nothing in common. I think you all know my son from what I have written. This was torture on him . I couldn't take it anymore, I am a kink person but I needed to say something for my sons well being . I called her and told her that I will speak to ds about anything he does wrong and that there is no need to speak to him. I was real nice and just kind of laughed it out that I will speak to him about things and handle the situation with him. Do you believe that they have not let there child out for a whole year!!!! They never let him come out to play! Now here is the guilty me thinking maybe I should have not said anything b/c I feel bad for him. But everyone reminds me you did nothing wrong you were just protecting your son. How strange. Sorry I just went off. But anyway my son has done the monster truck and toothpaste scenario to the t.

Mar

[mar]

Forgot to mention that the neighbor is working at a different school so ds does not see her staring. And at the beginning of this year the neighbors ds sat by ds during lunch and I told ds son to be nice and he was. . He didn't mind him sitting next to him As long as his other friends were there. He had a great year with an awsome teacher and he was not starred at during recess. The neighbors child slowly moved away from ds and is not on top of him all the time.

Mar