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EAMom,

 

Over the years it has occured to me that I have learned the most (in many instances) where people argued on threads. I mean some of them were down right nasty. They were, however, well informed people that were passionate about their subject. These forums (ACN) seem to be filled with some of the nicest people! I bet you and I can have different points of view here and still learn something from each other.

 

I'm glad that you pointed out the inaccuracies in the blog regarding PANDAS. Who ever made the remark about speaking to Dr.s and repeating that type of misinformation and how detrimental it is, is sooo right.

 

Ok, on this statement, I need to ask you something that I honestly don't know.

 

She's also pretty heavy-handed, anti-long term antibiotics. And seems convinced that vaccines are the PRIMARY cause of PANDAS (okay folks, remember, those mice didn't get ANY vaccines). (underling mine)

 

I believe that mouse was a strain that was prone to autoimmunity?

 

I completely agree that a child who already has PANDAS should be extremely leary of vaccines and that vaccines can cause problems in that situation. But, that is not the same as saying, it was the vaccines that caused it all in the first place. To me that's Strep (or even Mycoplasma or Lyme for those with those diagnoses). Period.

 

Have you ever read anything about the operation of the immune system during pregnancy or the infants immune system shortly after it's born? I'm not going to post a bunch of links, but Hilary Butler's article in the "adjuvant," thread is a good one. Basically, she explains how the TH1 (innate) shuts down during pregnancy so the fetus isn't identified as a "foreign," body and you are operating with the humoral (aquired...think antibodies here) or TH2 system, primarily. The baby and Mom will slowly switch back.

 

Decided to pull some of that info out of the artcle. I'm going to post this much now as I'm just hoping to lay a little ground work so other info. might make more sense regarding vaccinations. I also want to add that I surely don't have this all worked out in regards to PANS or anything else, but I believe that the vaccination program as it stands today IS involved in messed up immune systems, along with environment genetics etc.

 

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/butler.html

 

excerpt

 

By 1992, Pabst HF showed that vaccines could induce antibodies in the mother of a different isotype than that of the natural disease (Pediatr Res. 1992; 31: 173A) leading to speculation that this, and the lower titres, was the cause of babies not getting immunity from their mothers any more.(Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med Vol 148, July 1994, pg 698.)

 

It was only with the full realisation of the difference between the Th1 and Th2 immune system, that real difference in immunity were able to be characterised with more accuracy (I say more, because they say there is another cytokine class there as well, which they don’t understand what its function is. Who knows what they will find when they factor that in!)

 

The breakthrough came with the realisation that allergic people, people with asthma and immune system problems had immune systems which were skewed towards the Th2 system. So how do you get an immune system skewed towards Th2? It’s rather complicated…

 

“Modern vaccinations, fear of germs and absession with hygiene are depriving the immune system of the information input upon which it is dependent. This fails to maintain the correct cytokine balance and fine-tune T-cell regulation, and may lead to increased incidences of allergies and autoimmune diseases.” (Immunology Today, 1998, Vol 19, No 3 pg 113)

 

Just how much do medical people know about cytokines. Prior to the above article, Medical knowledge could be summarised by”

 

“cytokine modulation of immunity generated by vaccines has only been addressed in a very simple manner so far, and few studies have been carried out where the response has been fully characterized…Redirection of the immune response following immunization appears to be a fundamental problem which has to be overcome with some present, as well as future vaccines. Studies in which this concept is being assessed are in their infancy” Pg 112, “Modern Vaccinology”, By Edouard Kurstak, Pub. 1994.

 

To be precise, the only things they had looked at was the “end-product” i.e. antibodies, but there was a realisation that vaccines “redirected” the immune system. In other words, vaccines produce a different immunity to disease. Immunology Today gets more specific:

 

“Vaccination replaces recovery from infections with a rather different type of immunological stimulus. This can have unexpected effects. In the measles system, both vaccination and the infection itself have profound and long-lasting effects on the immune system, but these effects are not the same.”

 

“For example, recovery from natural measles infection reduces the incidence of atopy, and of allergic reactions to house dust mite to half the incidence seen in vaccinated children, suggesting a systemic and non-specific switch to Th1 activity.”

 

The interesting thing is that this new knowledge comes from another modern vaccine disaster - the Gulf War syndrome. So what relevance does this have to vaccinating babies? The author of this study says:

 

“indeed learning (immunological) is an absolute necessity, and these systems have evolved in the “anticipation” of appropriate inputs provided in an appropriate sequence after birth, and continuing throughout life”

 

The immune system has two “sides”. One is Th1, which is the usual response to diseases caught naturally. A healthy immune system has a “bias” towards Th1. Th2 is the “other” side, and people who have allergies, asthma and disease with an auto-immune origin have what is known as a Th2-skewed immune system. (New England J. Med 1992, Vol 326, No 5, 298-304 was one of the first references, now there are hundreds).

 

When a mother is pregnant, her pregnancy is controlled by cytokines, and requires a predominance of Th2 cytokines in order not to reject the baby. (Acta Paediatra 1997; 86: 916-918) A “Th1 driven” immune system would treat the baby as a graft, thereby miscarrying. Drugs are used to suppress the immune systems of transplant recipients for the same reason.

 

When a baby is born, it’s immune system is initially Th2-skewed, by virtue of the mother’s immune system. The mother’s immune system changes very quickly, and her breastmilk will help to change the baby’s balance, and will also “buffer” and assist in the development of the baby’s immune system.

 

The first years of life if the time when the “difference” between “vaccine” and “natural” immunity is so important, because most diseases promote a Th1 immunity. The portal of entry, and learning pathways teaches and matures the immune system, and helps in the prevention of both allergy-development and auto-immune disease. The “antigen” is processed, with the help of immunological factors in breastmilk and the baby’s cued-in immune system through the mucous membranes and the various “layers” of the immune system, producing an end-point called antibodies.

 

Some recent research which is as yet unpublished (I wonder who would have the guts to publish it) is looking at hundreds of mothers who have abnormally high level of antibodies to measles following vaccination. Their children, who became autistic after the MMR vaccine, are also found to have abnormally high levels of antibodies to Measles. The unsolved puzzles to this question are: Is there an inheritted immuno-dysfunction here? Did the high level of antibodies from the mothers cause the babies to have a catastrophic reaction to the MMR vaccine? What cytokine model are we looking at in the children?

 

The answer is that we don’t know, because no-one will research these issues. Not one vaccine company wants even the remote possibility of corporate suicide if the results show that vaccines do, as thought, damage the basic integrity of the immune system in some people.

 

The medical research that has so far been published, already makes it clear that vaccines can and do skew the immune system towards Th2 system, which is not what we want. Researchers looking at the cytokine balance of Gulf War Vets have found that their cytokine system is Th2 skewed. Right from the start, the soldiers blamed the vaccines they were given, but the medical people didn’t want to know so research centred around that fact that it was “all in their minds” (some doctors still do think that), then looked at a mite-sized sand fly in the middle east called “Phlebotomus papatasi” which can cause leishmaniasis (the Honolulu Advertiser, December 11, 1994, Front page). The next excuse was that an unlicensed drug called pyridostigmine bromide which the US thought would protect against nerve agents that Iraq might use could have done it. But the nail in all those coffins came when it was found that military personnel who had never gone to the middle east and experienced either mites or pyrodostigmine were also showing identical problems. All those tested so far appear to have Th2-skewed immune systems, and the only common factor is the vaccines given to them all. In a medical article discussing this skewing affect it was written:

 

“Indeed, the same effect can occur sporadically in the general population as a result of vaccinations or other Th2-inducing environmental stimuli and infections, and may also account for the frequency of chronic fatigue syndrome.”

 

“Unlike BCG, most of the vaccines that are administered to children are Th2 inducing; furthermore the only adjuvant licenced for use in adults is alum which is a Th2 adjuvant. Pertussis is given to children at the same time as other vaccines in order to exploit its adjuvant effect, but this is also Th2 inducing. The effects of these vaccines are mediated largely through neutralizing antibodies, so Th2 responses are adequate, but they do not provide a balanced stimulus for Th1 activity” (pg 114)

 

If an end-point is all they look for, it’s all they see. And if they assume that is the be-all and end-all of immunity

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that Kim. Interesting in that article about the high level measles antibodies in the mom after vax. I was vaccinated in the the hospital for MMR right after my dd was born. I then nursed her for a year....

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Eamom, I wouldn't beat yourself up about not requesting a strep test either. I always asked for a culture when my children seemed irritable and cranky. The many times they cultured positive they were treated. But the many other times it was negative it was "viral" I used to then go see the ped 2-3 times after and sometimes it wod eventually be pos. But, how many times were they not treated. All the times my children received abx for a strep infection did not prevent them from having Pandas. As much as we mothers like to blame ourselves for the things we can not fix... It is out of our hands, we could not have prevented it.

I have been in contact with the creator of vaxtruth.org. She is a wealth of knowledge as she has experienced it with her own daugther, and she is I believe a neuropyschiatrist and has worked with many patients in a DAN practice.

 

Hmmm. I looked at the website. The creator (Marcella) is NOT a neuropsychiatrist (no medical degree). She does have a MS in psychology.

 

I was looking at this blog she wrote in regards to the Le Roy girls http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/the-leroy-twelve-is-now-fifteen-students-set-to-see-pandas-doctor-today-are-vaccines-involved/

 

She seems to have a key misunderstanding about PANDAS...she keeps writing about bacterial and viral infection gaining access to the brain (eg. "Bacterial and viral infections do not gain access to the brain unless the blood brain barrier is damaged." and in a related blog "I have complete confidence that Dr. Triffiletti will be able to tell the parents of The LeRoy Twelve exactly which infectious bacteria has invaded their children’s brains..." and "Bacteria are larger than viruses. If bacteria can get through the holes created in the BBB..." and "PANDAS has been identified as the result of an autoimmune attack on particular brain structures as a result of bacteria that crosses the BBB." ) I get the impression (am I reading it wrong?) that she thinks the BACTERIA itself (eg. strep)actually enters the brain in PANDAS. There is NO MENTION of antibodies, no mention of molecular mimicry.

 

It kind of makes me nervous that somebody who is supposedly an "expert" (treats children with PANDAS and has a child with PANDAS, blogs about PANDAS) is missing out on this really important concept! (What else is she missing out on? Certainly I'm not going to spend lots more time examining her website...)

 

If anybody is going to quibble with me, saying "well, we don't know, maybe the strep DOES enter the brain"...don't forget the mouse models. (To quote Scientific American) "Then they purify the antibodies from those mice, inject them in another mouse that never had strep, and that mouse gets the neuropsychiatric symptoms, too. That shows it's the antibodies doing the damage." We have really good evidence the antibodies cross the BBB. There's really nothing to show that Strep itself crosses the BBB. Plus, if it were the STREP in the brain itself, then Plasmapheresis wouldn't work (since it just removes the anti-bodies, it doesn't suck strep out of the brain.)

 

She's also pretty heavy-handed, anti-long term antibiotics. And seems convinced that vaccines are the PRIMARY cause of PANDAS (okay folks, remember, those mice didn't get ANY vaccines).

 

Now, I am not going to argue that vaccines (and even the STRESS of the vaccines, esp. in a small child) aren't going to cause problems or trigger an exacerbation ONCE THE WHEELS OF PANDAS ARE SET IN MOTION. But she is taking it to the next level. (NOTE: I am talking about PANDAS, I don't have enough information to really speak in terms of Autism...but this is the PANDAS/PITANDS section of the forum, and my child isn't autistic, so I'm not speaking to that).

 

I guess you could accuse me of being a stickler for getting one's science correct (to the best of our ability). That is why I also have issues with Beth Maloney (eg "ASO is THE test for PANDAS"). I think it's okay for a NEWBIE to be getting these concepts wrong. By the time someone is a self-proclaimed expert (writing books, making your own website or organization), well, it's time to get your facts straight.

 

Okay, call me mean...

 

But, I really hate to see these wonderful caring intelligent parents (you guys) beating themselves up over having given early childhood vaccines. Honestly, if I could turn back time (11-12 years), I would STILL give my dd's her baby/childhood vaccines (without Tylenol of course). I probably wouldn't do any extra vaccines (eg flu shots). The thing I would have done ABSOLUTELY differently, is every time my child came in with a FEVER or Vomiting or was otherwise SICK (including strange behavior), I would have demanded a strep test. To me, that is the real cause of my dd's PANDAS, not vaccines. My dd did NOT receive ONE single strep test at ANY of her sick visits. EVERY single FEVER was presumed to be viral (by multiple doctors). Even when she came in with a classic early PANDAS sign (frequent urination) which preceded a FEVER by 3 days, she didn't receive a strep test. I have not idea how many times (or years) she had chronic untreated strep. It took my dh threatening the hospital staff (while my dd at age 7 was in the hospital for acute food refusal/severe OCD) to get our first strep test ("gee, her throat doesn't look sore"), which turned out to POSITIVE (as was her sister's).

 

I know others may disagree, but I can not honestly say, that my dd's PANDAS was in any way percipitated by her vaccinations. Will I vaccinate her now (Whooping cough, HPV) for non-critical vaccines...NO. Did I vaccinate her for H1N1 (nope!--but when she actually got H1N1 from disneyland exposure it resulted in a pretty "nice" exacerbation--would the vaccine have been any better or worse? who knows). But that is something else. That's me not wanting her exposed to triggers while she's healing. I completely agree that a child who already has PANDAS should be extremely leary of vaccines and that vaccines can cause problems in that situation. But, that is not the same as saying, it was the vaccines that caused it all in the first place. To me that's Strep (or even Mycoplasma or Lyme for those with those diagnoses). Period.

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EAMom,

 

So, the TH1/TH2 argument that would be a logical reason for delaying vaccines until after the first year. Or, I wonder if there are ways to skew the things back to the TH1 side when vaccines are given to a younger baby?

 

That may help but your Ped would tell you that the first year is precisely the time when your infant needs these vaccines. HIB, S pneumonia, Purtussis, Tetanus (bet even you doc would leave out hep B).

 

from paper linked above (Hilary's) bolding mine

 

In Immunotoxicology 1987, a warning was sounded about the cellular interactions required for antigen recognition, antigen processing and presentation:

 

A serious consequence of dysregulation of these networks could be the development of autoimmunity which could follow from an involvement of cellular or humoral components or both…chemically induced immune defects can occur at any stage in life. However, there is evidence that the newborn and the senescent may be more susceptible to chemically induced immunological injury…the health implications of immune dysfunctions are increased risk of infectious diseases, development of neoplasia, autoimmune disorders and allergies…It needs to be recognized that many of the components of the immune system are, as yet, poorly defined and in consequence the study of their complicated interactions is greatly hampered…there is no agreement on the significance, or even existence, of minor forms of immune dysfunction. In medical practice little attention is paid to lesser degrees of ill health, and priority is naturally given to life threatening diseases and many distressing conditions with immunological involvement receive scant attention.

 

As for an adjuvant that would give a more balanced immune response, remember they are only recently even LOOKING at how alum works. They have never known howit aided in antibody production, so figuing out how to make that happen while incorporating a TH1 response, well they haven't gotten around to figuring out something that I think nature was doing pretty well to begin with. Of course you can't discount what Hilary was talking about with breast feeding in that regard either.

 

Do you think this "skew" is the same as the "temporary immunosuppression"

 

Not really, I think "skewing," is largely referring to forcing an antibody (humoral)reponse when the inate immunity would have at least been a "first responder,' in a natural occurence.

 

or is it actually worse (as most seem to think) to just do 4 vaccines at once (so there is only a single 2 week window of immunosuppression, and the TH1/TH2 gets skewed less times)?

 

Well the thought of giving 4 vaccines at one time is really no longer in my realm of thinking. I'll try to show you why, to the best of my ability.

 

Again from same paper

 

Parents are constantly told vaccines save lives. The most recent example of this was in 1997 when we were told how many children would die from measles or be permanently injured from encephalitis. Similarly, the claim that the Hib vaccine has wiped out Hib meningitis has led doctors to say that the Hib vaccine has saved lives. Both of these statements are incorrect:

 

A recent study in Europe stated :

 

Conclusions: The spectrum of encephalitis in children has changed due to vaccination programs. The incidence, however, appears to be about the same due to increasing frequency of other associated old and new microbes (European Journal of Pediatrics, Vol 156, Number 7 July 1997, pgs 541-545.)

 

The same is true of meningitis in Finland, USA and New Zealand. The use of Hib vaccines has displaced haemophillus as a cause, but other organisms likely pneumococcus have risen in importance as causes.

 

In other words, in both examples, the numbers of cases eliminated have been replaced by an equal number of cases from other microbes not so prominent in the past.

 

A new, typical example of this saves lives phenomenon was seen in Canada where the Pharmaceutical Advertising Advisory Board, Toronto, Canada, recently ordered Merck-Frosst Canada to withdraw advertising that claims that its new chickenpox vaccine saves lives. The Board said Theres no proof the claim made by Merck-Frosst Canada about the drug Varivax is true. (CBC News Canada news release, web-posted Friday, April 2, 1999.) Normally medical people get away with little lies like this.

 

Now read this

http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Streptococcus_pneumoniae

 

S. pneumoniae shares its mucosal microenvironment with another pathogen, Haemophilus influenzae. In vitro, competition between S. pneumoniae and H. influenzae leads to the former killing off the latter by attacking it with hydrogen peroxide. Tested individually in vivo, both bacteria are able to successfully grow; however, when both are present in the same environment, H. influenza rapidly outcompetes S. pneumoniae. Research shows that the inflammatory response elicited by H. influenza causes the clearing of the other pathogen, S. pneumoniae. (6)

 

and (this is quite stunning)

 

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2011/11/13/Hib-vaccination-changes-epidemiology/UPI-70851321243351/

 

Hib vaccination changes epidemiology

 

Now, another "Hilary" excerpt (and remember these papers of hers are older) Please read the whole thing, so nothing is taken out of context

 

http://vran.org/about-vaccines/specific-vaccines/diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis-hib-vaccine/the-perilous-haemophilus-or-is-it-pneumonia/

 

excerpt

 

The June 1992 issue of Newsletter from the Journal of Pediatric Infectious Disease (JPID) stated:

 

THE PERILOUS PNEUMOCOCCUS. We have great concern for the increasing prevalence of relatively or absolutely penicillin resistant pneumococci coupled with the increased relative frequency of pneumococcal diseases as a result of universal Haemophilus vaccination. We need new agents that are active against these strains, especially WHEN THEY CAUSE INFECTION OF DIFFICULT TO TREAT SITES LIKE THE MENINGES OR HEART VALVES.

 

After considerable discussion, on 27 July 1992, Dr Morris and I sent a letter to JPID:

 

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PREVALENCE OF PNEUMOCOCCAL MENINGITIS AND UNIVERSAL HAEMOPHILUS INFLUENZA VACCINATION

 

To the Editors: In the Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal newsletter (1992;18:6) concern was expressed …for the increasing prevalence of relatively or absolutely penicillin resistant pneumococci coupled with the increased relative frequency of pneumococcal diseases as a result of universal Haemophilus vaccination. For example, we recently managed a nine month old infant with pneumococcal meningitis who failed to respond adequately to ceftriaxone therapy.

 

These sentences could be taken to mean that concern was prompted by an increase in prevalence of diseases including meningitis due to infection with penicillin-resistant pneumococci and that the increase resulted from universal Haemophilus vaccination. How or why one circumstance resulted in the other is not given in the quoted sentences nor given elsewhere in the newsletter note. That prior administration of Haemophilus vaccine might increase on rare occasions susceptibility to pneumococcus infection was not entertained.

 

The sentences might also mean that universal Haemophilus vaccination resulted in a decrease in Haemophilus diseases including meningitis and that the void was filled by an increase in pneumococcal diseases caused by antibiotic resistant pneumococci. If this is the explanation, then solution of one problem has given rise to another and this new problem is difficult to treat with available antibiotics which gives rise to a new need: antibiotics that are active against pneumococcal strains that invade dificult to treat sites like the meninges and heart valves.

 

This apparent one step forward-one step backward situation is reminiscent of similar problems that accompanied early use in the 1960′s of inactivated adenovirus vaccines to prevent respiratory diseases caused by adenovirus types 3, 4 and 7. The vaccines were highly effective in preventing disease caused by these types, but not effective in preventing respiratory diseases caused by the other 40 or more adenoviruses that moved in to replace types 3, 4 and 7. Soon after this situation was recognized, use of adenovirus vaccines, except for use in military personnel, was abandoned.

 

It might be well when assessing the overall value of the current program of universal Haemophilus vaccination, to keep in mind the earlier adenovirus vaccine experience. J. Anthony Morris, Ph.D Bell of Atri, Inc. Hilary Butler IAS.

Edited by kim
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and what happened next

 

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccines/pneumococcal-disease

 

A heptavalent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV7 vaccine), containing the 7 most common pneumococcal serotypes causing invasive infections in children in North America was licensed in the US and recommended for routine use in infants in 2000.

 

But it doesn't end there

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Thanks for these Kim, I am just starting to scratch the surface. Reading Hilary's paper today. I have known in my gut for a long time the vax may have had something to do with it. I appreciate your contributions, its alot to take in, but it makes me feel better about weaning off the abx, I don't feel as dependent... I feel immune balance is more the focus than antigen destruction or especially immune supression. Doing well so far, keeping my fingers crossed and praying :)

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Priscilla,

 

I'm glad you are finding this stuff helpful.

 

We have had parents report that their child have had no vaccines, minimal, and even that thier child was better after recieving vaccines. Even in those instances, vax research can be helpful in understanding some things about the immune system. I just hope for parents who feel there are adverse reactions, that they can learn just enough to stand up to someone who is forcing the issue.

The immune system is so complex.

 

Jag stated it very well, as far as one possibility

 

But what you are thinking is that these early, numerous vaccinations could interrupt the necessary training that the baby's immune system needs to encounter so that the Th2 activity does not become persistently dominant?

 

but then she asks how you can have a bunch of antibodies and still be immune deficient.

 

Jag, I think you have to look at things like opsonization and the complement pathways etc. I couldn't even begin to discuss those things with any degree of intelligence.

 

Pricilla, Hilary has a blog here. I love to watch her take these things apart (this one is on pertussis). The archives have a lot of useful entries too

 

http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Battling_Immunisation_Ignorance/

 

 

EAMom,

 

You were asking about immune suppression and how that might relate to the ability of infections taking hold. I found a page (may or may not be helpful).

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/immune.html

Edited by kim
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Now this is quite a coincidence. This is the first time I have seen this hypothesis

 

I usually scroll this page every couple of days.

 

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/

 

This headline caught my eye

 

Conjugate vaccines may predispose children to autism spectrum disorders

 

http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/conjugate-vaccines-may-predispose-children-to-autism-spectrum-disorders/

 

excerpts

 

It is hypothesized here that the introduction of the Hib conjugate vaccine in the US in 1988 and its subsequent introduction in Denmark and Israel could explain a substantial portion of the initial increases in ASDs in those countries. The continuation of the trend toward increased rates of ASDs could be further explained by increased usage of the vaccine, a change in 1990 in the recommended age of vaccination in the US from 15 to 2months, increased immunogenicity of the vaccine through changes in its carrier protein, and the subsequent introduction of the conjugate vaccine for Streptococcus pneumoniae.

 

and

 

Conjugate vaccines fundamentally change the manner in which the immune systems of infants and young children function by deviating their immune responses to the targeted carbohydrate antigens from a state of hypo-responsiveness to a robust B2 B cell mediated response. This period of hypo-responsiveness to carbohydrate antigens coincides with the intense myelination process in infants and young children, and conjugate vaccines may have disrupted evolutionary forces that favored early brain development over the need to protect infants and young children from capsular bacteria.

 

In regards to PANDAS specifically, maybe not mylein and maybe not autism, but an immune system which could be sensitized to carbohydrate recognition at a young age might have implications.

Edited by kim
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Everyone is sharing great information here!

 

There are many moms here, who do see a connection, in their children (maybe vaccinations causing PANS, &/or, pre-existing PANS being worsened/flared by vaccines), so I am glad the vaccination connection to PANS is being explored here!

 

I also encourage moms here, to contact Marcella, and tell her about how antibodies to organisms, not the organisms themselves, cross the BBB/blood brain barrier (although I admit I don't know enough to say that organisms can't cross the BBB).

 

Marcella is more humble than some may realize, and she admits mistakes, when they are pointed out to her. I urge COMMUNICATION with her, before too easily giving up on her.

 

She is a caring mom, like you all, and "give and take" of information, may help with sharing important information in both directions, and correcting errors, too.

 

Here's a link to a very recent post Marcella made, on her vaxtruth.org website, regarding a question she posed to Dr. Drew, during a "chat", and Dr. Drew blew off her concerns, with no justification for ignoring her points. See what you think:

 

http://vaxtruth.org/2012/02/vaccines-are-not-involved-in-leroy-illness-dr-drew-says-so/

 

Keep up your good work, getting the word out to parents and doctors!

 

Sincerely,

Carol

http://cantbreathesuspectvcd.com

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1328406459[/url]' post='131186']

Now this is quite a coincidence. This is the first time I have seen this hypothesis

 

I usually scroll this page every couple of days.

 

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/

 

This headline caught my eye

 

Conjugate vaccines may predispose children to autism spectrum disorders

 

http://therefusers.c...trum-disorders/

 

excerpts

 

It is hypothesized here that the introduction of the Hib conjugate vaccine in the US in 1988 and its subsequent introduction in Denmark and Israel could explain a substantial portion of the initial increases in ASDs in those countries. The continuation of the trend toward increased rates of ASDs could be further explained by increased usage of the vaccine, a change in 1990 in the recommended age of vaccination in the US from 15 to 2months, increased immunogenicity of the vaccine through changes in its carrier protein, and the subsequent introduction of the conjugate vaccine for Streptococcus pneumoniae.

 

and

 

Conjugate vaccines fundamentally change the manner in which the immune systems of infants and young children function by deviating their immune responses to the targeted carbohydrate antigens from a state of hypo-responsiveness to a robust B2 B cell mediated response. This period of hypo-responsiveness to carbohydrate antigens coincides with the intense myelination process in infants and young children, and conjugate vaccines may have disrupted evolutionary forces that favored early brain development over the need to protect infants and young children from capsular bacteria.

 

In regards to PANDAS specifically, maybe not mylein and maybe not autism, but an immune system which could be sensitized to carbohydrate recognition at a young age might have implications.

 

Kim,

I don't know how or if this fits in the picture, but when we had our initial consult with Dr. B, he ran many labs. My dd12 had a failed response to both Hib and 13/14 serotypes of strep pneumoniae. I asked him if there was any common thread he saw among his pandas patients and at that time (11/2010) he said 99% fail at least 10 serotypes. Up until that point, she was fully vaccinated, yet he tested for titers to strep pneum., Hib, and tetanus (her tetanus titer was fine). It is common knowledge on this board that he gets many of his patients covered for iVIG because they have a failed response to strep pneumoniae which we know is not the same thing as group A strep. There must be some reason he knew to look for that specific response and why there is such a high percentage of failure among kids with PANS.

This issue of the response to the 14 serotypes of strep pnuemoniae has been discussed here quite a few times and there are some who say their kids demonstrate immunity response, so that 99% number is doubted, but it is still likely a very high percentage. I'm not as sure about the Hib.

 

 

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Jag,

 

Did your daughter have a challenge vaccine prior to titers for S pneumonia?

 

I just deleted another book post, but definitely want to share this. I'm wondering what bacteria it borrowed from? bolding mine

 

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/01/30/pneumonia-bug-evolves-to-evade-vaccine-study-says/

 

 

Pneumonia bug evolves to evade vaccine, study says

 

excerpt

 

Vaccines that protect against these so-called pneumoccoccal infections are designed to recognize a material on the outer surface of a bacterium's cell called polysaccharide.

 

Each of over 90 kinds, or "serotypes," of these bacteria have a different polysaccharide coating.

 

In 2000, a vaccine that targeted seven serotypes proved highly effective when introduced in the United States. The same formula -- which also prevented transmission from children to adults -- was adopted in Britain.

 

Over time, however, the vaccine worked less well, so researchers led by Rory Bowden at the University of Oxford set out to discover why.

 

Combining cutting-edge genetic analysis with epidemiology, which examines how disease spreads, they found that the deadly pathogens escaped detection by swapping genes with other, slightly different, bacteria.

 

Remarkably, the exchanged genetic material came from precisely that part of the genome responsible for making the cell's coating, the area targeted by the vaccine.

Edited by kim
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Why this info may be important: If children under the age of 2 (roughly) can't respond to polysaccharides, I don't think the antibody response that is thought to be problematic in the GABHS would occur before that age either. I don't think that mainstream med worries about rheumatic fever, heart damage etc. in children with strep under the age of 2 who culture positive (I had a Dr. tell me that). Ok, this is something that I was working on yesterday. Maybe only a couple of people will be interested in this, but if there is even one it would be nice to have someone to talk to :) I'm not trying to make it seem that I have anything important all figured out, I'm just wondering if anyone can help explain the questions that I have in regards to all of this.

 

First, before we get into the HIB/S pneumonia vaccines (keeping GABHS in mind) read these excerpts

 

http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf

 

Capsular polysaccharides (PS) elicit B cell responses in what

is classically reported as a T-independent manner*,4,5

 

and about 1/3 down

 

This hypothesis is concordant with

the fact that bacterial PS vaccines are poorly immunogenic in

young children, i.e., prior to the maturation of the spleen

marginal zone.42,43

 

As PS antigens do not induce

GCs, bona fi de memory B cells are not elicited. Consequently,

subsequent re-exposure to the same PS results into a repeat

primary response that follows the same kinetics in previously

vaccinated as in naïve individuals.44 Revaccination with certain

 

Now the easier stuff saved from yesterday

 

Largely due to PM's that have asked questions, I'm going to resurrect this thread. I want to state once again that I have no medical or scientific background and I'm not trying to give anyone medical advise. Never rely on anything I say to be either complete or accurate (or anyone else..DO YOUR OWN RESEACH) so you will know how to discuss concerns with your child's health care provider.

 

 

It's kind of interesting that I wanted to find something to help explain what happens right off the bat with children who recieve the Hep B (then some info on that interesting HIB and S pneumonia) birth dose. Now, keep in mind that the vaccines have changed and the schedule has changed since my kids were vaccinated and since I did a lot of my research.

First, I want to use a little info provided by one of countries most outspoken vaccine advocates. Keep in mind what you read in Hilary's papers and then read this (which you will see Dr. Offit's name on). They reinforce some of her thoughts above AND give some addtional info. Pay particular attention to the paragraph with the heading

 

Functional Differences Between Infant and Adult Immune Responses

and the next one

IMMUNE RESPONSE TO VACCINES BY INFANTS

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.full

 

That is as far as I read for now (I have read this paper before)

 

Does anyone notice what he doesn't mention in there? They talk about polysaccharides and proteins, but leave out one important element..

 

 

edit..forgot to include the link

Edited by kim
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Kim- I was wondering where you are going with this.....big picture wise? Is it to determine your course regarding future vaccines for your kids or to determine to the best of your ability what might have gone wrong? I'm a big picture thinker and it is easier for me to see how the pieces fit together when I have an idea of the goal.

I tried to bring the subject up with the girls' doctor when we saw him last week. I didn't get very far before he said, "No more vaccines for the girls." I'm trying to discuss conjugate vaccines and he just put the whole conversation to bed. We see Dr B 2/20, and since he seemed to know 15 months ago which ones to test for, I'm going to see if I can discuss this issue with him. I don't know if he will feel comfortable discussing it, but I can try. Are there specific questions you can suggest I ask?

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I had my kids vaccinated, but I would never let them get more than one vaccine per month. I believed that vaccines were necessary, but I also thought that there was enough controversy to warrant not going overboard with them.

 

I remember telling the pediatrician that I didn't care if I had to pay another copay, I'd bring them back in a month, and eventually we'd catch up. She wasn't thrilled, but oh well......

 

That being said, before now 12 year old started 6th grade, she had to get the meningitis vaccine, which I was ok with as she'd already been diagnosed with pandas, and somehow I figured that it would help "protect her brain." (Not rational in hindsight, I know........)

 

Within a week of getting it, she had strep, which both of my kids tested positive for, and then went into full blown chorea again.

Neuro said no more vaccines, ever.

 

I still think that vaccines aren't bad, but I really think twice about them now.

 

I don't think it's necessarily the vaccines that cause the symptoms, but the immune response they produce that triggers the devastating pandas-like response.

 

And, as far as the whole vaccine/autism thing goes.........

 

I work with autistic kids. I evaluate them on a weekly basis. I am always struck by how each and every parent I've interviewed so far mentions a "sudden change", and which is always suddenly followed by significant developmental regression. It's almost like the sudden onset of Pandas. I don't know if there is a temporal association with vaccines, but it generally falls around the 18 month mark.

 

I won't be getting my older daughter any more vaccines, but I will probably get my younger one (now 6) the ones she still requires, but I will still keep spacing them out. There is now way in H-E double toothpicks that I will go near Gardasil though........

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I had my kids vaccinated, but I would never let them get more than one vaccine per month. I believed that vaccines were necessary, but I also thought that there was enough controversy to warrant not going overboard with them.

 

I remember telling the pediatrician that I didn't care if I had to pay another copay, I'd bring them back in a month, and eventually we'd catch up. She wasn't thrilled, but oh well......

 

That being said, before now 12 year old started 6th grade, she had to get the meningitis vaccine, which I was ok with as she'd already been diagnosed with pandas, and somehow I figured that it would help "protect her brain." (Not rational in hindsight, I know........)

 

Within a week of getting it, she had strep, which both of my kids tested positive for, and then went into full blown chorea again.

Neuro said no more vaccines, ever.

 

I still think that vaccines aren't bad, but I really think twice about them now.

 

I don't think it's necessarily the vaccines that cause the symptoms, but the immune response they produce that triggers the devastating pandas-like response.

 

And, as far as the whole vaccine/autism thing goes.........

 

I work with autistic kids. I evaluate them on a weekly basis. I am always struck by how each and every parent I've interviewed so far mentions a "sudden change", and which is always suddenly followed by significant developmental regression. It's almost like the sudden onset of Pandas. I don't know if there is a temporal association with vaccines, but it generally falls around the 18 month mark.

 

I won't be getting my older daughter any more vaccines, but I will probably get my younger one (now 6) the ones she still requires, but I will still keep spacing them out. There is now way in H-E double toothpicks that I will go near Gardasil though........

 

I've probably posted this b-4, but here is info. on Tylenol and vaccines. I wonder if it is the COMBO of the two that are actually the problem, not so much vaccines in and of themselves. Just food for thought!

http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/Non-food/Drug/tylenol_linked_to_increased_risk_of_autism_0702101053.html

 

Specifically, acetaminophen use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was linked to 6.11 fold higher risk of autistic disorder in children ages 5 years or younger, 3.97 fold higher risk in children with regression in development, and 8.23 fold higher risk in those who had post-vaccination sequelae.

 

In contrast, ibuprofen use after MMR vaccine was not associated with autism spectrum disorder.

 

I also think Vitamin D and the hygiene hypothesis might be involved in the autism epidemic.

 

Vitamin D http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/autism-and-vitamin-d

 

hygiene hypothesis http://www.grc.nia.nih.gov/branches/rrb/dna/pubs/aaihh.pdf

Edited by EAMom
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