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Question about IGg & IgM P41


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Sorry to ask a question that may have been asked many times before but I am left w/ lab results and no one to interpret them until possibly Monday.

 

Does a Present abnormal on IgG p41 and IgM P41 mean more than likely Lyme on WB test?

 

I know lab said negative for Lyme but if these are abnormal on my son's WB lyme test, what does this mean?l

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Sorry to ask a question that may have been asked many times before but I am left w/ lab results and no one to interpret them until possibly Monday.

 

Does a Present abnormal on IgG p41 and IgM P41 mean more than likely Lyme on WB test?

 

I know lab said negative for Lyme but if these are abnormal on my son's WB lyme test, what does this mean?l

 

P41 is the band that tests for antibodies to any bacteria that has a tail (flagella). It is not lyme specific. H Pylori (the bacteria that causes ulcers), syphilis, lyme and other bacteria have this feature. (Strep does not). Generally, IgM means recent exposure and IgG means more time has elapsed since exposure. But that's not carved in stone.

 

Under the helpful threads section of this forum, you can find a few articles that explain the significance of each band.

 

The problem is that the standard western blot labs use CDC criteria and look at certain bands of antibodies. I don't recall exactly which ones, so for illustration, lets say they look at bands A, B, C, and D. They do not Look for Bands E or F, which are unique to lyme. (long story why they don't look for these bands - I will post only if you care). Igenex is a lab that does look for bands E and F as well as bands A, B, G, H and J. They give you a different picture. So if you haven't used a lab that looks for bands that are specific for lyme, you can't really say whether it's a negative result or not.

 

Elsewhere in the recent topics is a thread about a new lab test that doesn't look for antibodies at all but instead cultures living lyme spirochetes from the blood sample. This eliminates the guess work. If I had the funds and were new to lyme, this is the test I'd do first.

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Thank you for your reply.

 

I did see the post about the test that cultures the blood and I inquired as to what the name of this test is and how to get this test done???

 

 

I am just not in a good place right now and my son is so sick.

 

 

It seems like many people tend to read questions but ignore.

 

Since I am new to these boards and not as literate about lab results and diseases I feel like an outsider.

Edited by socalmom
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Thank you for your reply.

 

I did see the post about the test that cultures the blood and I inquired as to what the name of this test is and how to get this test done???

 

 

I am just not in a good place right now and my son is so sick.

 

 

It seems like many people tend to read questions but ignore.

 

Since I am new to these boards and not as literate about lab results and diseases I feel like an outsider.

I'm sorry your son is so sick right now. Please don't feel like an outsider and if you don't get a response right away - bump up your post.

I ran the test on my daughter, which was positive. Feel free to ask any questions on it. Here is the contact information to request the test, if desired. You need to have a physician order it for you.

 

Advanced Labatory Services

855-238-4949

info@advanced-lab.com

 

The test is not covered by insurance, but you can submit the claim and try and get some reimbursement (depends on your insurance). The cost is $595.00 and it is a culture test (not antibody test). They have a requisition form on their website you can take take to your doctor for his signature. They will then send the blood kit to your doctor. The press release gives more details (it's in another post here). Hope that helps some. Please ask any questions you may have.

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But please note that you need to be off antibiotics for at least 4 weeks before doing the culture test, so since your child is on abx right now, that's something to consider.

 

You do not need to be off abx for Igenex's Western blot, and you should be ON abx for Igenex's DOT BLOT urine test (which my son tested positive on) but the DOT BLOT test will also miss a lot of positives. But we considered it to be the "smoking gun" and there are more Lyme docs (LLMDs) in the LA area than there are PANDAS docs.

 

Lyme testing is a very complicated matter.

 

I have a really comprehensive article on western blots done in Europe. Here is the link -- make sure to look at the tables. http://jcm.asm.org/content/38/6/2097.full

 

You can also look at this (published by Igenex's people) : http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_285/ai_n19170380/?tag=content;col1

 

I'm sure I have more, I can post later tonite.

 

How are you guys doing?

 

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I did see the post about the test that cultures the blood and I inquired as to what the name of this test is and how to get this test done???

 

 

I am just not in a good place right now and my son is so sick.

 

 

It seems like many people tend to read questions but ignore.

 

Since I am new to these boards and not as literate about lab results and diseases I feel like an outsider.

I'm sorry your son is so sick right now. Please don't feel like an outsider and if you don't get a response right away - bump up your post.

I ran the test on my daughter, which was positive. Feel free to ask any questions on it. Here is the contact information to request the test, if desired. You need to have a physician order it for you.

 

Advanced Labatory Services

855-238-4949

info@advanced-lab.com

 

The test is not covered by insurance, but you can submit the claim and try and get some reimbursement (depends on your insurance). The cost is $595.00 and it is a culture test (not antibody test). They have a requisition form on their website you can take take to your doctor for his signature. They will then send the blood kit to your doctor. The press release gives more details (it's in another post here). Hope that helps some. Please ask any questions you may have.

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Yes, you need to be off abx for at least 4 weeks.

 

Let's face it $595 is a lot of cash. I don't think everyone should run out and get this test, especially since lyme isn't the only infection that causes PANS symptoms. I only wish it was covered by insurance so it would be an option for anyone with symptoms.

 

I just submitted it to our insurance. I will post if I get any reimbursement.

Edited by philamom
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We're hanging in there, it's tough I'm not gonna lie.

 

My head spins every time I try to read stuff on Lyme, I guess because i am so new to all this.

 

I am very concerned with a 5 year old having two abnormal present " bands" i think it's called, on his WB test.

 

It also says flagella found.

 

Here's what Dr. T wrote in a brief email:

 

ALEXANDRE

 

1. Strep titers, measured three ways, are negartive.

 

2. Mycoplasma titers are negative

 

3.There is no evidence of Lyme disease(why is there presence of flagella? and IGg, IgM band 41 positive, WHY?)

 

4. Alexandre's IgG, IgA and IgM are normal. However, he dose show some immune quirks

 

A. His IgE is very low - 5 - typically >20, sometimes much higher

 

 

 

 

B. His IgG4 is very low - expected 38, found 14

 

 

C. His IgG2 is about 40% of expected ... expected 285, found 118

D. (see the CBC on second page) - he has absent basophils - the cells that make histamine

 

I find this curious tetrad of findings in 75% of children with PANDAS, and I call it the "PANS-prone immunophenotype" (PPI).

 

When a child with PPI encounters a PANS-trigger, then PANS symptoms may result. The three known triggers are Strep, Mycoplasma and Lyme. There are undoubtedly many more.

Edited by socalmom
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Like LLM said, P41 is not lyme specific so it could mean other bacteria. But, it is usually the first band to appear in patients with lyme. Unfortunately, there are a lot of different opinions regarding lyme and testing. Our LLMD would probably not treat with a positive band 41 only (by Igenex) without clinical symptoms, but he would probably keep searching if symptoms were present. There are some on here who only had a +band 41 on Igenex, started treatment and retested by other ways and received a positive lyme diagnosis (by provoking it). Also, as stated before, Igenex lab tests for more (and more specific) bands than the CDC does (there is a reason behind it, if interested). I could be wrong, but I don't think Dr. T orders the Igenex WB? He goes by the standard CDC testing, which doesn't test for all the bands. Again, it comes down to a difference of opinion. But in my opinion, a negative CDC finding is not the end of the lyme search. But that's me.

Edited by philamom
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You're not an outsider, there is a huge learning curve here (at least there was for me.)

 

As far as reading a question and not responding, sometimes we read to learn more, too,

and I for one am very hesitant to comment on interpreting Lyme testing results...

I'm sorry.

PV's for you and your child, hang in there--

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Like LLM said, P41 is not lyme specific so it could mean other bacteria. But, it is usually the first band to appear in patients with lyme. Unfortunately, there are a lot of different opinions regarding lyme and testing. Our LLMD would probably not treat with a positive band 41 only (by Igenex) without clinical symptoms, but he would probably keep searching if symptoms were present. There are some on here who only had a +band 41 on Igenex, started treatment and retested by other ways and received a positive lyme diagnosis (by provoking it). Also, as stated before, Igenex lab tests for more (and more specific) bands than the CDC does (there is a reason behind it, if interested). I could be wrong, but I don't think Dr. T orders the Igenex WB? He goes by the standard CDC testing, which doesn't test for all the bands. Again, it comes down to a difference of opinion. But in my opinion, a negative CDC finding is not the end of the lyme search. But that's me.

 

 

philamom, thanks, I know it's rough going lately for you as well right now.

 

I don't feel comfortable taking this result as a definitive, I do think i need to explore this a bit more, should I do a urine test for DNA?

 

or the igenex test?

 

I really want to be sure and the more i read I am starting to worry I may have Lyme, as I have had unexplained health issues for years.

 

 

 

 

S&S Thank you , a huge learning curve is no understatement!

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Someone please jump in and correct me if I am wrong here:

 

Doesn't band # 41 indicate a Lyme co=infection?

 

Also, I have heard that individuals who are immunodeficient may not be able to produce a measurable amount of antibodies to the Lyme. After a period of treatment for Lyme, the immune system becomes stronger and these saem individuals will begin to show Lyme antibodies and have positive Lyme tests.

 

Additional input from others about this would be very helpful...

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I just want to add that I would suggest testing your child for methylation issues - test vitamin levels, for MTHFR chromosonal defects - as we have done PANDAS treatemnt, Lyme treatment, IVIG, and Cunningham testing - all testing positive and we have seen unsustainable results. We most recently uncovered the MTHFR mutation and are supplementing with METHYL folate and METHYL B-12, D3, and still on all lyme and pandas meds. Unitl we added in the supplements to supprt METHYLATION, we had lost our son again for no explainable reason. We have now had a complete turn around. So, getting to the bottom of it all for us has required an immunologist, lyme pediatrician, and functional medicine doctor (our happens to be a DAN Autism doctor - we are not austistic - she just thinks out of the box and knows nutrition and supplements). Feel free to PM me with any questions. Know this.....it always gets better!!

Edited by mommakath
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Can you direct me where to test for the MTHFR mutation? Labs, codes, costs, etc?

 

Thanks.

 

I just want to add that I would suggest testing your child for methylation issues - test vitamin levels, for MTHFR chromosonal defects - as we have done PANDAS treatemnt, Lyme treatment, IVIG, and Cunningham testing - all testing positive and we have seen unsustainable results. We most recently uncovered the MTHFR mutation and are supplementing with METHYL folate and METHYL B-12, D3, and still on all lyme and pandas meds. Unitl we added in the supplements to supprt METHYLATION, we had lost our son again for no explainable reason. We have now had a complete turn around. So, getting to the bottom of it all for us has required an immunologist, lyme pediatrician, and functional medicine doctor (our happens to be a DAN Autism doctor - we are not austistic - she just thinks out of the box and knows nutrition and supplements). Feel free to PM me with any questions. Know this.....it always gets better!!

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